Looking for Tankless Water Heater Info

[Sumo Guy]

I am getting a custom home built in the San Antonio, TX area. I was wanting to install two gas tankless water heaters. Can anyone give me information on them?

My builder seems reluctant to install them and wants to go with the conventional 50 gal heaters. Has anyone had any problems with them?

Are they more difficult to install? I was planning on locating them outside. One for the master bath suite that will have shower/bath/washer/ and two sinks. The other will be for the rest of the house: two full baths, one 1/2 bath, washer, kitchen, etc...

Any helpful hints/info will be appreciated.

[handypfb]

I had a Rinnai 2532W installed at my Slidell,LA home in December. The unit mounted on the outside of my house weighs 49 lbs, makes NO noise, supplys 199,000 BTU'sm cost me $741+ tax. My neighbor is a dealer, so I got it at his cost. Plenty of hot water for 2 full baths, washer, and kitchen, but visit their web site(www.rinnai.com) or talk to them on there 800#.
Lots of models to chose from. Outdoor installation eliminates the need for stainless-steel venting kit which is a little pricey ($400 est). Won't freeze if gas and electric remain on.
My dealer/neighbor installed his unit himself, and he's NOT a plumber/electrican. These tankless hot water units have been around for decades, especially in Japan and Europe. I too ran into plumbers that didn't recommend them. IGNORANCE!
HomeDepot has one on display although they don't install and had no installers that they could recommend in my area!
Any good plumbing supply house will have one or two brands available and I'm sure can recommend a plumber.

[594tough]

A google search will get lots of info.

The benefits of tankless are often best available to new construction like you....you can locate multiple units near the principal usage areas. This may eliminate the need for a recirclation system often needed to save water and inconvenience in a large house with a single tank. Also, properly sized tankless will give you more hot water than a single 50, or even 2 50's. You just have to make sure to get tankless which cover the GALLON PER MINUTE demand which you anticipate.

In retrofit, tankless can be very expansive to install. For new construction, the cost for larger gas lines and flue pipes would be modest.

Tankless are more complicated and will be costly to repair. Do a lot of research on brands and reliability and maintenance costs.

[Sumo Guy]

Thanks for the info. I had a meeting with my builder last night and I guess we weren't on the same page. I was talking tankless heater and he was talking "instant hot water", which is different. I think we are both together on this now. We are both going to do some research and see what we find.

Both of yoour comments are/were helpful. Thanks......

If anyone else has a bit of information, please reply........

[Who]

Sumo guy, what is it that appeals to you about using tankless what heaters?

[Everlast]

Hi, Tankless is a good Idea! Most plumbers dont like them because they cost more and the Flume is also more expensive. The install is the same price. Europe has been using them for yeaaaaaars. For some reason there is a resistents to it. You get a $300 tax credit for having it installed. We sell them for $700 if anyone would like one. One of the problems is people put into small of a unit so there water isnt hot enough if two sources are using it. You need at least 20 Liters per minute. For 3 bedroom house.

[logcabincook]

We are having one installed in the next couple weeks (Rinnai R85). This is one of the few models rated for our altitude (8300 ft). The reasons are 1) energy conservation and 2) space. Our current HWH installation violates code because you have to remove pipe and the well tank to remove the HWH, but we need to replace ancient HWH. There is virtually no way for us to install a regular HWH that complies with code without eating into valuable storage space. Plus we are getting a claw foot tub and I'd like to be able to fill the whole thing with hot water :-) The cost of the unit is high, but installation is ironically no higher, even with a retrofit, because of all the work that has to be done to replace the water heater in the first place... it will actually be easier to put in a tankless than a regular one.

Will let you know how it goes.

[Sumo Guy]

I like the idea of a tankless water heater for 3 reasons:
1) Energy savings - I know it costs a little more for the unit, the intall will be on the exterior, so we won't have to have venting. Over the long haul I will be saving more, so I'm looking ahead.

2) Endless supply of hot water - Since I was a child, I've always run out of hot water, not all the time, but when you do, its not nice to be in the shower when there is no hot water left. I lived in Japan and they use the tankless, mainly for space, but we never ran out of hot water.

3) Space Issue - My builder was going to put the water heater in my attic. Two units in my attic wasn't something I wanted - 100 gallons of water - leaking replacement issues, etc.... He said we could put them on the ground level but then I would have to loose space or redesign my home. With the tankless I can hang on the exterior and it won't be an issue.

A valuable lesson I learned is that there is a difference between "endless" supply of hot water and "instant" hot water.

[Who]

Sumo, I'm not a big fan of tankless, but if you have good water quality and can't resolve the space issues, then go for it. I'm sure if more people had enough space for tanks in Europe they wouldn't have so many tankless. In fact because of the space situation they actually have wall mounted tanks fired by wall mounted boilers (mostly boilers there). That said...

Get a Rinnai or another top name brand. Size the two units to your loads. I'm not sure I would have your contractor install them and I'm not sure how your contractor feels about having someone else come in, but I would have it installed by whoever is going to service it. Service will be important, because if anything happens, the hot water stops right away.

My opinion on your reasons...
#1 - compared to standard wasteful gas-fired tanks - yes
#2 - that gets offset by a narrower min and max flow
#3 - bingo!

[IFlyShamu]

We have a Takagi T-K1S Tankless water heater in our house and love it. Our house was built with (2) 50 gal gas heaters and when one started leaking we converted to the tankless type.

Get something that will supply you with the right amount of hot water. I would buy about as large as you could afford. Ours will do 7.2 GPM and we have had no problems for 2 adults taking showers.

Another thought is the water there in San Antonio. I know it has a lot of "stuff" in it and I would look into how it will effect your equipment.

Good luck and enjoy it.

[Kobuchi]

I used them in Japan too, liked them. The fact they're seen on every apartment and hotel balcony, suggests they *are* efficient. I can't wait to install one of these babies.

I wouldn't choose tankless, though, just because house design forgot utility space. If you're yet at the stage of realizing the puzzle of your home must accommodate these pieces, well... sometimes little problems like this force us to rearrange and sometimes get a better result than before we had a problem.

One thing tanks do have over demand heaters, is waste. When most of your energy bill is heating season, a basement tank "wasting" heat into the room looks like something for nothing next to tankless mounted outdoors.

Another thing tanks offer is integration with hydronic heating. If you'd like to heat your home this way, try adding "combined system" or "combo system" to your Google search.

Hmm. While I'm on the "cons" side of this argument, I'll add that however much geek-appeal tankless heaters have to people like myself, they really do look just like ugly box-things to most folks walking by your lovely home.

"Oh, what's that industrial thing nailed to the siding? The tankless? How nice."

[Sumo Guy]

I actually wanted the tankless going into the project. I designed the house so I didn't make any space for the water heater, knowing that it would be mounted outside. As it happens both units will be near where the hot water is needed and in a conspicuous place on the exterior. I didn't really plan it that way but it worked out well.

I appreciate all the comments..... is nice to know I can ask questions like this and get a good sampling of responses.

Thanks all ya'all...... keep 'em comin'

[Gull]

I was also thinking of going tankless. I have a 20 year old electric heater preasently. There is only my wife and I and that means only 2 showers a day, never both at once, and maybe 3 loads of dishes and 3 loads of wash a week. I have propane for my stove and dryer. I would think that the savings would be quite a bit, no?
The piping for my propane is 3/8 flexable copper. Would I have to change it to 1/2 in all the way from the tanks or can I just t off of the 3/8 up to 1/2?
Thanks for any and all help and opinions.

[Who]

All this depends on how cold your water is when it goes into the water heater, and then how many gpms and whatever water temperature you need. How many fixtures will ever use it at once? That kind of thing. If you want to shower and load the washer and whoops the dishwasher is also on... if you want to be able to handle that you'll need a few BTUs to jack that water temp up instantly. We don't know those variables. These things really are best installed by trained people - the warranties require that on the better models, and someone has to be able to calculate your sizing needs.

A water heater needs to be practical. Stretching the efficiency each extra point mean of the rest, there is less and less to gain. Anf for that the long term servicing cost and impact of interruption go way up. On a tank you can go a day without power. On a tankless, either electrical or gas can stop you. Plus these things are no different than a boiler. They should be serviced annually and are more prone to scaling problems.

Just my opinion... I have no interest either way. Okay, well if you have a boiler then an indirect is simply the only proper way... ;-)

[logcabincook]

New tankless water heater report - it's cool! It's spaceage! It sounds like a jet taking off!

The only disadvantage we have found is the hot water flow from the tub (no other faucet) is lower than it used to be. The plumber explained that because we no longer have a big 40 gallon tank of hot water, we have to rely on the speed of the HWH to heat up our meager well flow. This also means that our well pump kicks on much more often. However we still have all the hot water we need, so it's not a huge disadvantage per say, just different. With a low flow showerhead you don't even notice the difference.

[johnrooks1]

I'm having trouble with my tankless Bosch/Aquastar not getting the water hot enough. It has for 2yrs. now it's not. Do they have to be descaled now and then? If so, how is this done?

[furd]

Yes, they need to be periodically descaled. This is what Bosch states in the installation manual:


Mineral Scale Build-up: The AquaStars heater, when
operated at lower temperatures settings, do not accumulate
mineral build-up. If however, the water has a high mineral
content, periodic descaling may be necessary. The heating
coils should be flushed with a descaling solution. Consult
your service person.

Of course they don't tell you how to do it.

[johnrooks1]

Thanks for the reply. Anybody done this before? When I installed it I made it easily removeable just in case. I was thinking of using a descaler like they use in steam cleaners. Any input?????????????

[johnrooks1]

Found out my problem wasn't scale buildup, it was lower incoming water temperature. Evidently, we are pretty close to the city water tower and with several weeks of very cold windy weather and the ground temperature, or freeze level being lower it causes us to recieve colder water than usual. This inturn requires a higher burner level than we have. So keep in mind this happens, so if you live in a cold climate you might want to upgrade from the norm. You can turn a unit down from max, but not up.........

All in all though, they work well. There are always acceptions to the rules.

[kalamazoo]

you should check out website "foreverhotwater.com" The Rinnai tankless hot water heater is advertised by Paul Harvey and I think he wouldn't advertise if not a reliable product. Several home builders in my area use these and I have seen them in some parade of homes I have visited here in Tyler,Tx. I dont have personal experience but think this is what I will buy this year as our conventional one needs replacing.

[MICKK]

Greetings folks,

I know more about these units than most people have forgotten.

I am happy to answer any questions on here or email me at mmickk@gmail.com

The main reason I want you to help you decide on one of these units is that they contribute 70% less greenhouse gasses than any other hot water system known to man. Apart from that, they are just brilliant at their job, cost less to run, never run out of hot water and with the use of a controller, deliver the temperture you select.

What that effectively means is you dial in your showering temp and thats what comes out. Just turn on the hot tap and the unit actually makes that temp. No mixing of hot/cold water.

same deal in the kitchen. Punch in what the temp youlike for dish washing and out that comes.

Like a hot bath? you can even select the amount of gallons you want at a specific temp and it will fill your bath with that amount at that temp, then stop the flow and the controller says "bath full, turn off hot water". It has delivered the set amount and stopped the flow through the unit! Try that with a storage tank. You dont have to stand there looking at the bath filling. All you have to do is turn the tap off and jump in!

PS I dont install so Im not looking for your money, I just believe in the product, its warranty, reliability and the company.

mick

[Who]

"The main reason I want you to help you decide on one of these units is that they contribute 70% less greenhouse gasses than any other hot water system known to man."

MICKK, why would you say that? My indirect-fired water heater is piped to a condensing boiler that is far more efficient than any tankless water heater. Are you familiar with condensing boilers and/or indirects?

That 70% number is complete silliness.

***** ***** ***** ***** *****

johnrooks1, one thing you could do to help reduce the capacity loss caused by the cold water is try and bring the temperature of the incoming water up before it gets to the tankless unit. You could add more piping that goes near a heating source, or install a tempering tank or even pipe it through something like a GFX heat exchanger on your drain system.

[MICKK]

Internal models of continuous flow HWS also use the flue gasses to heat the water.

Condensing boilers are no more efficient than hydronic heating systems that use continuous flow HWS.

[Kobuchi]

Kalamazoo & MICKK, paid to endorse Rinnai among other products.

Not shameless plugs... they actually seem embarrassed to be doing this. Lol.

[jcaxtell]

Originally Posted by MICKK

Greetings folks,

I know more about these units than most people have forgotten.
The main reason I want you to help you decide on one of these units is that they contribute 70% less greenhouse gasses than any other hot water system known to man.

Hmm....... You might want to talk to those hardy Iclandic dudes. They think that geothermal produces 0 greenhouse gas!