Gas Hot Water Heat with Pressure, Pump and Zone Valve problems
#1
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Gas Hot Water Heat with Pressure, Pump and Zone Valve problems
To review the previous post on this system go to:
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=328688
Take the System Tour
Because this system has multiple problems (and since my Dad was not co-operative until now) I took the time to build a kind of virtual tour of this system with photos, all the below system info/questions and more. Hopefully it will make it possible for all you answer guys to tell me what I need to do without too much back-and-forth questioning/clarifying. Take the tour at:
http://www.neoxweb.com/sites/md-heat/index.htm
My Situation: (Rock --> me <-- Hard Place)
You need to understand that I am trying to help my parents - they are both well into their 80's - and that this is not my system/house - so I will not be able to just run down to the boiler and back to the computer to respond to requests for more info/photos. If more info/photos are needed and I don't already have it, then the response time will be hours or days. Which is why I tried to collect as much upfront has possible and created the system tour to lay it all out as clearly as I could. Please take a look.
Basically my Mom is cold and asking for my help and the only reason my Dad is willing to allow me to help now, is that the system has deteriorated to the point that even he had to admit there was a problem (I really didn't think he would let work on it until it was shut down for the summer). His only solution, to any heating problem, is to bleed the system, because to him, the only problem is an "air-lock." In fact, when I was just out there to re-asses the situation, after I was done, the only question he asked was, did I get the air-lock out! He has been chasing that air-lock for the last 25 years!
So lets get on with it ...
The House:
- Daylight-basement-rambler
- aprox. 3,100sf total - 2,500sf up - 600sf bsmnt
The System:
- original install about 1971
- Gas Hot-water
- 3 zones/zone valves - 2 up, baseboards - 1 bsmnt, in slab floor, with aquastat
- zone valves are: White-Rodgers, series 13A00, Two-way zone valves (2-wire type)
- each zone has its own thermostat
- 1 circulating pump (originally 2 - 1 for up, 1 for bsmnt - bsmnt pump removed, date not known)
- circulating pump is a Bell & Gossett - B58
- expansion tank with good bladder & charged at 12 psi
- float valve air purger - working
- aprox. 10 foot vertical rise from boiler to top of baseboard
- for photos and more take the system tour
Symptoms/problems:
- pressure way too high, consistently 30psi and higher (according to boiler gauge)
- circulating pump always on and started leaking a few weeks ago
- one zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed
- Pressure problem ...
Since the expansion tank is good, I suspect the pressure reducing/auto-fill valve is bad or needs adjusting. There is some seepage at the seal. I shut the system down/cooled down and pressure down ... then when re-started, the pressure was normal (15-18psi) at first, but over a couple hours it slowly increased to about 25 psi.
I plan to replace the pressure reducing/auto-fill valve.
- Circulating pump always on and leaking problems ...
I need troubleshooting steps/procedures to determine why the pump is always on.
It is not leaking where the pump mount joins the system piping, it is leaking where the pump joins the mount - so I can't really see where the leak starts - see "Old circ. pump" photo at the system tour.
For the leak, I need to know how to find the source and if there are seals/gaskets that can be replaced. Do I have to remove the pump to check seals/gaskets? If bearings fail, does the pump leak or just get noisy? Other?
- zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed problem ...
Valve does not respond to thermostat or to moving the Manual switch to Open. I need to sort out actual problem - zone valve, thermostat, wiring, other ... I need to know trouble shooting steps.
I just found a procedure for testing the motor ... disconnect the thermostat (from terminals 5 & 6) then jump terminals 5 & 6 to open valve - remove jumper to close valve - but I haven't been able to try it yet. Anything else?
-------
That's about it. You will find a few more questions/concerns at the system tour - but they are less urgent. After you experts take the tour you may even see things that I don't know enough to notice or ask about - so if you find anything else, let me know.
After they get through this heating season, I'll be looking at making some improvements - like adding a bunch of isolation valves - while the system is down for the summer.
It's frosty out and this is no "April Fools" so ... Thanks in advance for any and all help ...
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=328688
Take the System Tour
Because this system has multiple problems (and since my Dad was not co-operative until now) I took the time to build a kind of virtual tour of this system with photos, all the below system info/questions and more. Hopefully it will make it possible for all you answer guys to tell me what I need to do without too much back-and-forth questioning/clarifying. Take the tour at:
http://www.neoxweb.com/sites/md-heat/index.htm
My Situation: (Rock --> me <-- Hard Place)
You need to understand that I am trying to help my parents - they are both well into their 80's - and that this is not my system/house - so I will not be able to just run down to the boiler and back to the computer to respond to requests for more info/photos. If more info/photos are needed and I don't already have it, then the response time will be hours or days. Which is why I tried to collect as much upfront has possible and created the system tour to lay it all out as clearly as I could. Please take a look.
Basically my Mom is cold and asking for my help and the only reason my Dad is willing to allow me to help now, is that the system has deteriorated to the point that even he had to admit there was a problem (I really didn't think he would let work on it until it was shut down for the summer). His only solution, to any heating problem, is to bleed the system, because to him, the only problem is an "air-lock." In fact, when I was just out there to re-asses the situation, after I was done, the only question he asked was, did I get the air-lock out! He has been chasing that air-lock for the last 25 years!
So lets get on with it ...
The House:
- Daylight-basement-rambler
- aprox. 3,100sf total - 2,500sf up - 600sf bsmnt
The System:
- original install about 1971
- Gas Hot-water
- 3 zones/zone valves - 2 up, baseboards - 1 bsmnt, in slab floor, with aquastat
- zone valves are: White-Rodgers, series 13A00, Two-way zone valves (2-wire type)
- each zone has its own thermostat
- 1 circulating pump (originally 2 - 1 for up, 1 for bsmnt - bsmnt pump removed, date not known)
- circulating pump is a Bell & Gossett - B58
- expansion tank with good bladder & charged at 12 psi
- float valve air purger - working
- aprox. 10 foot vertical rise from boiler to top of baseboard
- for photos and more take the system tour
Symptoms/problems:
- pressure way too high, consistently 30psi and higher (according to boiler gauge)
- circulating pump always on and started leaking a few weeks ago
- one zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed
- Pressure problem ...
Since the expansion tank is good, I suspect the pressure reducing/auto-fill valve is bad or needs adjusting. There is some seepage at the seal. I shut the system down/cooled down and pressure down ... then when re-started, the pressure was normal (15-18psi) at first, but over a couple hours it slowly increased to about 25 psi.
I plan to replace the pressure reducing/auto-fill valve.
- Circulating pump always on and leaking problems ...
I need troubleshooting steps/procedures to determine why the pump is always on.
It is not leaking where the pump mount joins the system piping, it is leaking where the pump joins the mount - so I can't really see where the leak starts - see "Old circ. pump" photo at the system tour.
For the leak, I need to know how to find the source and if there are seals/gaskets that can be replaced. Do I have to remove the pump to check seals/gaskets? If bearings fail, does the pump leak or just get noisy? Other?
- zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed problem ...
Valve does not respond to thermostat or to moving the Manual switch to Open. I need to sort out actual problem - zone valve, thermostat, wiring, other ... I need to know trouble shooting steps.
I just found a procedure for testing the motor ... disconnect the thermostat (from terminals 5 & 6) then jump terminals 5 & 6 to open valve - remove jumper to close valve - but I haven't been able to try it yet. Anything else?
-------
That's about it. You will find a few more questions/concerns at the system tour - but they are less urgent. After you experts take the tour you may even see things that I don't know enough to notice or ask about - so if you find anything else, let me know.
After they get through this heating season, I'll be looking at making some improvements - like adding a bunch of isolation valves - while the system is down for the summer.
It's frosty out and this is no "April Fools" so ... Thanks in advance for any and all help ...
#2
wow!
That is one heckuva job you done on that presentation! excellent work... I can see that with your attention to detail, you will have that system tip-top in no time.
I quickly saw that you checked the expansion tank and found 12 PSI in it. Did you check that with the pressure at ZERO on the boiler ? You can't check the pressure in the tank with any pressure at all on the boiler side of the bladder.
I'll be getting back with ya maybe tomorrow after I have time to digest it all...
I quickly saw that you checked the expansion tank and found 12 PSI in it. Did you check that with the pressure at ZERO on the boiler ? You can't check the pressure in the tank with any pressure at all on the boiler side of the bladder.
I'll be getting back with ya maybe tomorrow after I have time to digest it all...
#3
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I don't feel the "pressure" - it's everything else that's got me stumped ...
Thanks, for the reply Trooper and I'm hoping that "digesting" this system doesn't give you indigestion ... in any case, the short answer is yes - pressure was at zero and temp was basically room temp.
But lets just say there was still some pressure in the system (after all, I do not trust the boiler gauge) ... and please let me know if you think my reasoning here is faulty ... but here is how I see the worst case scenario for the x-tank needing a re-charge ... to do the other repairs like replacing the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve or the safety valve, I will need to shut the system down and drain at least some water, likely dropping the pressure to true zero. At this time I can completely remove the tank to check & charge if needed. So, since I am confident that the bladder is good, no matter what the charge on the x-tank is currently, it can be corrected later.
Just in case you're thinking ... "but you might not need to replace that Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve, it might only be the expansion tank " ... remember that I have got a new Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve in hand, from when my dad bought this combination valve to "fix" the leaking safety valve - so unless it is possible that the valve was damaged when he converted the dual unit to single units, I figure since the current Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve is old and leaking - I should just replace it.
Basically, I think I have a pretty good handle on fixing the pressure problem - it's everything else that I am still in the dark about. I would like to get everything diagnosed, so that I can get the needed parts and then shut the system down, do all the repairs and hopefully be done in one shot. So, nailing down the problem and solution/repair for the pump, zone valve and anything/everything else is a higher priority for me - again, let me if you think I am wrong here.
Looking forward to digesting your next reply!
But lets just say there was still some pressure in the system (after all, I do not trust the boiler gauge) ... and please let me know if you think my reasoning here is faulty ... but here is how I see the worst case scenario for the x-tank needing a re-charge ... to do the other repairs like replacing the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve or the safety valve, I will need to shut the system down and drain at least some water, likely dropping the pressure to true zero. At this time I can completely remove the tank to check & charge if needed. So, since I am confident that the bladder is good, no matter what the charge on the x-tank is currently, it can be corrected later.
Just in case you're thinking ... "but you might not need to replace that Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve, it might only be the expansion tank " ... remember that I have got a new Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve in hand, from when my dad bought this combination valve to "fix" the leaking safety valve - so unless it is possible that the valve was damaged when he converted the dual unit to single units, I figure since the current Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve is old and leaking - I should just replace it.
Basically, I think I have a pretty good handle on fixing the pressure problem - it's everything else that I am still in the dark about. I would like to get everything diagnosed, so that I can get the needed parts and then shut the system down, do all the repairs and hopefully be done in one shot. So, nailing down the problem and solution/repair for the pump, zone valve and anything/everything else is a higher priority for me - again, let me if you think I am wrong here.
Looking forward to digesting your next reply!
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Wiring diagram added to the system tour
I've added a wiring diagram to the system tour - you can get to it from any of the zone valve views or the pump and transformer photos.
[website host has closed operations]
Please let me know if you see any problems.
[website host has closed operations]
Please let me know if you see any problems.
Last edited by NJT; 01-03-14 at 06:46 AM.
#5
Since I'm not real familiar with the W-R zone valves, or the FLAIR relay box, I looked around the web to see if I could find a PDF file that identified the terminals on your valves.
No luck... I was able to find some that seem similar, but nothing that really pinned down for me what the various terminals are.
Did you by some chance find an installation brochure for them around the home ?
They look like a standard motor / endswitch type valve... and I've got some ideas, but without knowing the 'pinout' I don't know that I can help a whole lot with the wiring.
Is there any more info on the FLAIR relay ?
Can you trace out the circulator wiring ?
No luck... I was able to find some that seem similar, but nothing that really pinned down for me what the various terminals are.
Did you by some chance find an installation brochure for them around the home ?
They look like a standard motor / endswitch type valve... and I've got some ideas, but without knowing the 'pinout' I don't know that I can help a whole lot with the wiring.
Is there any more info on the FLAIR relay ?
Can you trace out the circulator wiring ?
#6
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Those are different than the White-Rodgers zone valves I am familiar with. The ones I used to work with required a three-wire (SPDT) thermostat for operation. These may also require that type of thermostat. It would close red to white on a fall in room temperature to open the valve and then upon the thermostat being satisfied it would open the red-white connection and close red to blue to close the valve.
They all have the standard end switches that control (via a relay) the circulator.
They all have the standard end switches that control (via a relay) the circulator.
#7
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I Think I know why the pump is always on ...
First, let me thank you - trooper & furd for your efforts.
I haven't had much sleep this week, what with my brain tossing zone valves and pump circuits all about - sleep is for people without problems to solve!
Anyway, in stead of sleeping, I was tearing the zone valve apart in my head until I thought why not just do it for real ... I had brought home a dead ZV that I had found by the boiler ... after I opened it up and knew how it worked, problem solved(?) ...
But first my updated wiring diagram - I added the thermos/aquastat (just 2-wires, furd) - for reference ...
[website host has closed operations]
All the red, white & blue lines match the color wires in the photos at the
[website host has closed operations]
The other colors are there just to keep things clear where wires cross - except that I kept the red wire for the aquastat. The yellow circles are wire nuts.
Okay, now for the inner workings of the zone valve ...
[website host has closed operations]
What I tried to do is show you what's under the plastic head.
Terminals 3 & 4 are connected by a switch that is closed when the ZV opens.
So, power comes from the transformer's terminal-1 to the terminal-1 on the ZV, passes through the motor to terminal-5, out to the thermostat and then back at terminal-6, which is connected to terminal-2, wires then send power back to the transformer completing the circuit for the motor & a second wire sends power to terminal-4, the motor turns and the valve opens, which closes the switch between terminal-4 & terminal-3, completing the circuit to the transformer at its terminal-3, which then starts the pump & burners!
Do you now see why the pump is always on? (answer below - don't look if you want to solve this own your own ... )
The problem with the pump IS the problem with the ZV - the ZV is stuck open, so the switch is closed, so the pump is on!
I checked on the dead ZV I have in hand and I can, "flip the switch" with a screw driver, so I will be testing my theory soon.
Please tell me this all seems plausible to you guys - after all I am sleep deprived and may be just deluding myself ...
I've got to get going now, but I'll let you know what happens when I try flip'n-da-switch - if the pump stops, we can move on to the rest of the problems ... more fun ahead!
Thanks again ...
I haven't had much sleep this week, what with my brain tossing zone valves and pump circuits all about - sleep is for people without problems to solve!
Anyway, in stead of sleeping, I was tearing the zone valve apart in my head until I thought why not just do it for real ... I had brought home a dead ZV that I had found by the boiler ... after I opened it up and knew how it worked, problem solved(?) ...
But first my updated wiring diagram - I added the thermos/aquastat (just 2-wires, furd) - for reference ...
[website host has closed operations]
All the red, white & blue lines match the color wires in the photos at the
[website host has closed operations]
The other colors are there just to keep things clear where wires cross - except that I kept the red wire for the aquastat. The yellow circles are wire nuts.
Okay, now for the inner workings of the zone valve ...
[website host has closed operations]
What I tried to do is show you what's under the plastic head.
Terminals 3 & 4 are connected by a switch that is closed when the ZV opens.
So, power comes from the transformer's terminal-1 to the terminal-1 on the ZV, passes through the motor to terminal-5, out to the thermostat and then back at terminal-6, which is connected to terminal-2, wires then send power back to the transformer completing the circuit for the motor & a second wire sends power to terminal-4, the motor turns and the valve opens, which closes the switch between terminal-4 & terminal-3, completing the circuit to the transformer at its terminal-3, which then starts the pump & burners!
Do you now see why the pump is always on? (answer below - don't look if you want to solve this own your own ... )
The problem with the pump IS the problem with the ZV - the ZV is stuck open, so the switch is closed, so the pump is on!
I checked on the dead ZV I have in hand and I can, "flip the switch" with a screw driver, so I will be testing my theory soon.
Please tell me this all seems plausible to you guys - after all I am sleep deprived and may be just deluding myself ...
I've got to get going now, but I'll let you know what happens when I try flip'n-da-switch - if the pump stops, we can move on to the rest of the problems ... more fun ahead!
Thanks again ...
Last edited by NJT; 01-03-14 at 06:48 AM.
#8
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If only you had brought me a problem involving staging of several industrial air compressors to meet a varying load or the remote reading of cooling tower water chemistry values I could probably have been of more assistance.
Yes, the partially open valve is the culprit causing the circulator to run constantly. Fix (or replace) that valve head and that should take care of THAT problem.
You will want to replace that B&G relief valve on the boiler for an ASME rated safety valve. You will need to come out of the boiler with a nipple and then an elbow to mount the safety valve with the spindle in a vertical position. Pipe the outlet of the safety valve back down to within six inches of the floor and cut the end of the pipe at an angle.
Replace the boiler pressure gauge if it is at all suspect.
You need to be more specific on just where the circulating pump is leaking. Perhaps you can take a picture of the pump and put an arrow pointing to the leak.
What did the pump without a motor serve? If it is no longer used then removing the pump and as much of the piping as possible may be a good idea.
Yes, the partially open valve is the culprit causing the circulator to run constantly. Fix (or replace) that valve head and that should take care of THAT problem.
You will want to replace that B&G relief valve on the boiler for an ASME rated safety valve. You will need to come out of the boiler with a nipple and then an elbow to mount the safety valve with the spindle in a vertical position. Pipe the outlet of the safety valve back down to within six inches of the floor and cut the end of the pipe at an angle.
Replace the boiler pressure gauge if it is at all suspect.
You need to be more specific on just where the circulating pump is leaking. Perhaps you can take a picture of the pump and put an arrow pointing to the leak.
What did the pump without a motor serve? If it is no longer used then removing the pump and as much of the piping as possible may be a good idea.
#9
Lifting the white wire from terminal 3 on the FLAIR relay box should stop everything... this is your "signal" wire.
The blue (term 2) is your 24 VAC common.
The red (term 1) is your 24 VAC hot.
============================== edit ===================
It's also possible that 2 is the so-called HOT, and 1 is the so-called COMMON, but this won't change the info below
=====================================================
With the white still lifted, a jumper between 2 and 3 should start and stop the boiler and the circs (if the circs are wired to this relay, it looks as if they are).
With the white lifted still, if you have a multimeter and know how to use the ohm scale, put one lead on the blue wire on term 2 and the other on the lifted white wire.
If no thermostats are calling for heat, this should show OPEN. When any one thermostat calls for heat, it should show a SHORT after the ZV opens.
It looks like they are wired correctly in spite of the redundant connections from terminal 2 to 4 on the ZVs, so no worries there. I think you've got a pretty good handle on this part already though...
The blue (term 2) is your 24 VAC common.
The red (term 1) is your 24 VAC hot.
============================== edit ===================
It's also possible that 2 is the so-called HOT, and 1 is the so-called COMMON, but this won't change the info below
=====================================================
With the white still lifted, a jumper between 2 and 3 should start and stop the boiler and the circs (if the circs are wired to this relay, it looks as if they are).
With the white lifted still, if you have a multimeter and know how to use the ohm scale, put one lead on the blue wire on term 2 and the other on the lifted white wire.
If no thermostats are calling for heat, this should show OPEN. When any one thermostat calls for heat, it should show a SHORT after the ZV opens.
It looks like they are wired correctly in spite of the redundant connections from terminal 2 to 4 on the ZVs, so no worries there. I think you've got a pretty good handle on this part already though...
Last edited by NJT; 04-04-08 at 05:14 PM.
#10
What did the pump without a motor serve? If it is no longer used then removing the pump and as much of the piping as possible may be a good idea.
Is that copper pipe buried directly into the concrete ? Could be future problems there when the concrete eventually eats through the pipe... can you say leak in slab ? I think you can!
If you were to keep the basement heated, you might eventually want to look into using a mixing valve to temper the water to the floor instead of starting and stopping the circ. I bet it never worked well and that's why the pump was removed.
If no heat is needed down there (unfinished ?) then I vote with furd to abandon that part.
#11
You asked about the expansion tank earlier...
I think you're probably OK with it the way it is for the time being, as far as the air charge goes. As long as the boiler pressure was very low... if it was a few PSI, it won't matter really.
I think you're probably OK with it the way it is for the time being, as far as the air charge goes. As long as the boiler pressure was very low... if it was a few PSI, it won't matter really.
#12
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Getting caught-up on my replys ... zone valve & pump issues ...
Grab a snack and get comfy - this is a long one!
RE: furd - post #8 ...
Sorry everything is not more complicated/challenging for you, but for me, starting out with zero knowledge of these things, this is complicated enough!
I have been able to confirm this now. Currently, I have removed the switch from the circuit, so that the pump now cycles on/off as it should with the working zone valve.
I was able to find a sheet on the White-Rodgers series 13A00, Two-way, zone valves. It says that the motors "can be quickly replaced" ... "two easily accessible screws permit removal of the motor." This is partly true, two screws hold the motor to the head, but the wires for the motor are soldered to the head terminals. Is this normal for replaceable motors? When replacing, should I cut/splice or re-soldered the wires?
Stamped on motor, side-housing: 640 24V 60HZ 5W 6RPM 35465L-5-6 8739 Is any of that a model number or identifier (640 or 35465L-5-6 8739)? Are the motors standardized? I have seen motors for sale that look like this one, with same specs, but how do I know if they are the right replacement?
When I was trying to isolate the pump/burner switch on ZV-1 (see above) by removing a wire, some thing changed that allowed the valve motor spring to close the valve. After I had figured out a way to successfully remove the switch from the circuit, so that the pump would cycle on/off as it should, I found that although ZV-1 still did not open when JUMPED, it did open manually and auto-closed as it should. So, I believe that it is only the motor that is bad, the actual valve moves freely and all other switches/circuits seem good.
Given that the motor failed the JUMP TEST and that everything else works - is it safe to conclude that the problem is just the motor?
Sorry, but Trooper beat you, giving me that advice back in December 2007 with my first post on this system - although the "cut the end of the pipe at an angle" is new I think - nice addition.
I plan on replacing the gauge with the other "shut down the system" work.
The label on the bearing assembly body that this motor is attached to says "B58" - Is that the pump model or is this a B&G "Series #100?"
About the Leaking pump ...
Just about every thing I've read here, dealing with pump problems, ends up with, just buy a Taco 007. About B&G leaks, I've read that trying to replace seals isn't worth the effort. And when it comes to more expensive repairs, like bearings ... just buy a Taco 007.
So here's the situation. I started talking to my dad about just replacing the pump/pumps, with a
Taco 007 - if it is the right pump for the job - and basically, he's on board. But then, he handed me a bag with parts for the B&G pumps and I found two seal kits, a two impellers (including what I am guessing are Body Gaskets) and three coupler assemblies. So, he may already have what's needed to fix the leaking pump.
When it comes to the pumps, what's the word - will the Taco 007 work? Will energy savings and no-maintaince/oiling make it worth changing? Or, if he already has the needed parts, should we stick with the B&G's?
The missing motor served the in floor radiant heat for the basement. Turns out, the only reason the motor is off is because my dad pulled it to replace the impeller/do some servicing & never finished the job - since they do not use the basement much, he just never got around to putting it all back together. Photo of missing motor ...
The lable on the bearing assembly body that this motor was attached to says "Series #100 B.I." - stamped on the motor: 1/12 HP, 1725 RPM, 1.7 amps ...
Are the Red & Black motors/pumps the same, just different colors?
RE: Trooper - post #9 ...
As I said above, I confirmed my diagnosis (from post #7 "I Think I know why the pump is always on ...") - that the pump was always on because the zone valve was not closing. But while I was there I took more photos anyway ...
Transformer with cover off ...
I did not get your post until after I had returned from my parent's place - but I had run some checks ... I found 27.5 vac at the transformer & zone valves - is this okay or does it indicate a problem?
I did not run the tests you describe, but since the the pump & burners now cycle as they should, I suspect I would have gotten the results you described - OPEN/SHORT.
This isn't that important, but I don't think any of the connections are redundant (like you, I did at first). After studying the diagrams I had created, I thought that I could remove the switch on the faulty zone valve by removing a wire - it did not work - nothing worked! I haven't taken the time to puzzled it out yet, but most (all) of those "redundant" connection are to create circuits for each valve, even when the other valve switches are closed.
RE: Trooper - post #10 ...
Yes, basement floor is radiant heat.
What does "missing circ" mean? - wait, never mind ... all this electrical talk and I'm thinking circuit - but I bet you meant circ pump - right? If so, I think you're right, you would know better than me.
Was it crude back in 1971?
If it helps, here's a photo of the aquastat with cover off ...
I don't know what a "mixing valve" is - I have only learned about what I've got to deal with so far - but on my Friday visit my dad was actually in a good mood, willing to talk and getting more comfortable/accepting of me working on his heating system. He said that he would like to get the whole thing restored/working - basement included. So maybe more on this later ...
No, it is not. As I recall, it is more like rubber tubing, like a hose. We, as a family, built this house with help from a few pro's for jobs that required expertise - like installing the boiler. I was just a kid, but I remember laying out the "hose" before the slab was poored.
You lose! As mentioned above, the pump was removed for maintenance that was never finished. Plus, we lived in the basement - for years - while finishing the main floor on nights/weekends. After that, my brother's room was down there and us kids used the basement as our place until we were out of the house. When we were back for Holidays/whatever we were in the basement playing pool, hanging-out - the basement heating was great, very even - to this day I would love to have floor radiant heat based on my experience in that basement.
RE: Trooper - post #11 ...
Yes, I think it will be fine until I am ready to do the "real" work.
Actually, the pump leaking has probably helped a lot. Ironically, now that the system is leaking, my dad has decided to keep the water feed closed. Without the feed/auto-fill, the pressure is staying mostly in the 12-20psi range. He is going down to dump the bucket under the leaking pump and adding water, as needed, to replace what leaks out. I have cautioned him about keeping enough water in to allow a buffer for the leaking - don't want it to go dry - & since his hearing isn't very good, I've got my mom listening for that "trickle" sound that says the water is low. This has forced him to keep an eye on the pressure and because he knows more pressure means more leaking and more water for him to dump, he is trying to keep the pressure down where it should be! I would not recommend this kind of training for others, but it just might work for him.
Making progress! - where were, where we are now, what's left ...
Where we were:
- pressure way too high, consistently 30psi and higher (according to boiler gauge)
- circulating pump always on and started leaking a few weeks ago
- one zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed
Where we are at now: - Unless I hear otherwise, it looks like ...
- after all repairs, pressure won't be a problem
- pump always on problem is solved (will be fixed when zone valve fixed)
- zone valve can be fixed with just a new motor (?)
What's left:
- leaking pump
Current parts list:
- ASME rated safety valve with Min. 105.6 lbs hr capacity
- Temperature/pressure gauge
- zone valve motor
- Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve
WOW that was a lot ... anyone really read all that ... Thanks to all ...
Off topic note: Finally! I've been trying off and on all day to get this up. I think an ad must have cycled through that created a conflict in both Firefox (v2.0.0.13) & Opera (v9.26) - I stopped using Explorer years ago. My browsers just kept locking-up. I haven't had a problem here before. I don't know who to report this to - so I'm doing it here.
RE: furd - post #8 ...
If only you had brought me a problem involving staging of several industrial air compressors to meet a varying load or the remote reading of cooling tower water chemistry values I could probably have been of more assistance.
Yes, the partially open valve is the culprit causing the circulator to run constantly. Fix (or replace) that valve head and that should take care of THAT problem.
I was able to find a sheet on the White-Rodgers series 13A00, Two-way, zone valves. It says that the motors "can be quickly replaced" ... "two easily accessible screws permit removal of the motor." This is partly true, two screws hold the motor to the head, but the wires for the motor are soldered to the head terminals. Is this normal for replaceable motors? When replacing, should I cut/splice or re-soldered the wires?
Stamped on motor, side-housing: 640 24V 60HZ 5W 6RPM 35465L-5-6 8739 Is any of that a model number or identifier (640 or 35465L-5-6 8739)? Are the motors standardized? I have seen motors for sale that look like this one, with same specs, but how do I know if they are the right replacement?
When I was trying to isolate the pump/burner switch on ZV-1 (see above) by removing a wire, some thing changed that allowed the valve motor spring to close the valve. After I had figured out a way to successfully remove the switch from the circuit, so that the pump would cycle on/off as it should, I found that although ZV-1 still did not open when JUMPED, it did open manually and auto-closed as it should. So, I believe that it is only the motor that is bad, the actual valve moves freely and all other switches/circuits seem good.
Given that the motor failed the JUMP TEST and that everything else works - is it safe to conclude that the problem is just the motor?
You will want to replace that B&G relief valve on the boiler for an ASME rated safety valve. You will need to come out of the boiler with a nipple and then an elbow to mount the safety valve with the spindle in a vertical position. Pipe the outlet of the safety valve back down to within six inches of the floor and cut the end of the pipe at an angle.
Replace the boiler pressure gauge if it is at all suspect.
You need to be more specific on just where the circulating pump is leaking. Perhaps you can take a picture of the pump and put an arrow pointing to the leak.
The label on the bearing assembly body that this motor is attached to says "B58" - Is that the pump model or is this a B&G "Series #100?"
About the Leaking pump ...
Just about every thing I've read here, dealing with pump problems, ends up with, just buy a Taco 007. About B&G leaks, I've read that trying to replace seals isn't worth the effort. And when it comes to more expensive repairs, like bearings ... just buy a Taco 007.
So here's the situation. I started talking to my dad about just replacing the pump/pumps, with a
Taco 007 - if it is the right pump for the job - and basically, he's on board. But then, he handed me a bag with parts for the B&G pumps and I found two seal kits, a two impellers (including what I am guessing are Body Gaskets) and three coupler assemblies. So, he may already have what's needed to fix the leaking pump.
When it comes to the pumps, what's the word - will the Taco 007 work? Will energy savings and no-maintaince/oiling make it worth changing? Or, if he already has the needed parts, should we stick with the B&G's?
What did the pump without a motor serve? If it is no longer used then removing the pump and as much of the piping as possible may be a good idea.
The lable on the bearing assembly body that this motor was attached to says "Series #100 B.I." - stamped on the motor: 1/12 HP, 1725 RPM, 1.7 amps ...
Are the Red & Black motors/pumps the same, just different colors?
RE: Trooper - post #9 ...
As I said above, I confirmed my diagnosis (from post #7 "I Think I know why the pump is always on ...") - that the pump was always on because the zone valve was not closing. But while I was there I took more photos anyway ...
Transformer with cover off ...
I did not get your post until after I had returned from my parent's place - but I had run some checks ... I found 27.5 vac at the transformer & zone valves - is this okay or does it indicate a problem?
Lifting the white wire from terminal 3 on the FLAIR relay box should stop everything... this is your "signal" wire.
It looks like they are wired correctly in spite of the redundant connections from terminal 2 to 4 on the ZVs, so no worries there. I think you've got a pretty good handle on this part already though...
RE: Trooper - post #10 ...
Looks like basement floor radiant ... the aquastat probably shut off the missing circ when the water got above it's setpoint. Kinda crude way of running a radiant system.
What does "missing circ" mean? - wait, never mind ... all this electrical talk and I'm thinking circuit - but I bet you meant circ pump - right? If so, I think you're right, you would know better than me.
Was it crude back in 1971?
If it helps, here's a photo of the aquastat with cover off ...
If you were to keep the basement heated, you might eventually want to look into using a mixing valve to temper the water to the floor instead of starting and stopping the circ.
Is that copper pipe buried directly into the concrete ? Could be future problems there when the concrete eventually eats through the pipe... can you say leak in slab ? I think you can!
I bet it never worked well and that's why the pump was removed.
RE: Trooper - post #11 ...
You asked about the expansion tank earlier...
I think you're probably OK with it the way it is for the time being, as far as the air charge goes. As long as the boiler pressure was very low... if it was a few PSI, it won't matter really.
I think you're probably OK with it the way it is for the time being, as far as the air charge goes. As long as the boiler pressure was very low... if it was a few PSI, it won't matter really.
Actually, the pump leaking has probably helped a lot. Ironically, now that the system is leaking, my dad has decided to keep the water feed closed. Without the feed/auto-fill, the pressure is staying mostly in the 12-20psi range. He is going down to dump the bucket under the leaking pump and adding water, as needed, to replace what leaks out. I have cautioned him about keeping enough water in to allow a buffer for the leaking - don't want it to go dry - & since his hearing isn't very good, I've got my mom listening for that "trickle" sound that says the water is low. This has forced him to keep an eye on the pressure and because he knows more pressure means more leaking and more water for him to dump, he is trying to keep the pressure down where it should be! I would not recommend this kind of training for others, but it just might work for him.
Making progress! - where were, where we are now, what's left ...
Where we were:
- pressure way too high, consistently 30psi and higher (according to boiler gauge)
- circulating pump always on and started leaking a few weeks ago
- one zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed
Where we are at now: - Unless I hear otherwise, it looks like ...
- after all repairs, pressure won't be a problem
- pump always on problem is solved (will be fixed when zone valve fixed)
- zone valve can be fixed with just a new motor (?)
What's left:
- leaking pump
Current parts list:
- ASME rated safety valve with Min. 105.6 lbs hr capacity
- Temperature/pressure gauge
- zone valve motor
- Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve
WOW that was a lot ... anyone really read all that ... Thanks to all ...
Off topic note: Finally! I've been trying off and on all day to get this up. I think an ad must have cycled through that created a conflict in both Firefox (v2.0.0.13) & Opera (v9.26) - I stopped using Explorer years ago. My browsers just kept locking-up. I haven't had a problem here before. I don't know who to report this to - so I'm doing it here.
#13
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My quip about the air compressors and cooling towers was supposed to be humorous. I haven't worked on a residential system for close to twenty years and sometimes it is hard to remember the ins and outs. Your problems ARE difficult for me . The compressors and cooling towers were my last big job before retirement.
In regard to changing the zone valve motor...IF you can find the replacement I think you will find it comes as a complete assembly of motor, gear train, limit switches and terminal block. It is possible that this particular valve is now obsolete and complete replacement of valve and motor may be necessary. You might be able to find just the motor but it would probably be from a large electronics specialty wholesaler like Allied Electronics.
It looks like the bearing bracket-to-pump body joint is where the leak is. This is just a thin gasket and is easily replaceable. If the shaft seal is leaking then it would need to be replaced also although I personally have never had good luck with the shaft seals. They usually leak immediately or very soon after I have replaced them. If the shaft seal is leaking I recommend replacing the entire bearing assembly including shaft and impeller.
That stated, in most cases it is less expensive to simply swap for a "canned" pump such as the Taco 007. Those old B&Gs were almost bullet-proof in their day, I've seen them run for twenty-thirty years without anything but a few drops of oil a year but when they start having problems they can quickly become a money pit.
If time isn't too important, or if your dad wants to tinker with it, you could try replacing the shaft seal if it shows evidence of leaking. I think that if the shaft seal seems okay I would just replace the gasket and try it. Worst case is that you will still have the leak.
You did try just tightening those four bolts, didn't you?
On the other hand, if you want to put it back in full operation with the least hassle and best reliability I would strongly suggest the canned pump.
I think the red and black pumps and motors are the same but I can't state that with any great amount of certainty. Grady works with this stuff every day and he, or one of the other guys, would know for certain.
Ideally the radiant floor should have a mixing valve to control the temperature of the floor at a lower setting. A mixing valve would re-circulate water leaving the floor loop(s) back to the inlet and mix just enough water from the boiler to maintain the necessary temperature. Most embedded coil radiant floors run about 80 to 100 degree water in them. You generally want the floor surface no higher than 80 degrees. Then again, if it worked well before, there is no reason that it wouldn't still work as well today with it piped just as it is.
I can't answer any questions on how your relays, thermostats and zone valves are wired to the boiler or circulator pumps. Every job that I worked on had custom controls and I was usually the person that designed those controls. I have no experience with off-the-shelf relay panels.
In regard to changing the zone valve motor...IF you can find the replacement I think you will find it comes as a complete assembly of motor, gear train, limit switches and terminal block. It is possible that this particular valve is now obsolete and complete replacement of valve and motor may be necessary. You might be able to find just the motor but it would probably be from a large electronics specialty wholesaler like Allied Electronics.
It looks like the bearing bracket-to-pump body joint is where the leak is. This is just a thin gasket and is easily replaceable. If the shaft seal is leaking then it would need to be replaced also although I personally have never had good luck with the shaft seals. They usually leak immediately or very soon after I have replaced them. If the shaft seal is leaking I recommend replacing the entire bearing assembly including shaft and impeller.
That stated, in most cases it is less expensive to simply swap for a "canned" pump such as the Taco 007. Those old B&Gs were almost bullet-proof in their day, I've seen them run for twenty-thirty years without anything but a few drops of oil a year but when they start having problems they can quickly become a money pit.
If time isn't too important, or if your dad wants to tinker with it, you could try replacing the shaft seal if it shows evidence of leaking. I think that if the shaft seal seems okay I would just replace the gasket and try it. Worst case is that you will still have the leak.
You did try just tightening those four bolts, didn't you?
On the other hand, if you want to put it back in full operation with the least hassle and best reliability I would strongly suggest the canned pump.
I think the red and black pumps and motors are the same but I can't state that with any great amount of certainty. Grady works with this stuff every day and he, or one of the other guys, would know for certain.
Ideally the radiant floor should have a mixing valve to control the temperature of the floor at a lower setting. A mixing valve would re-circulate water leaving the floor loop(s) back to the inlet and mix just enough water from the boiler to maintain the necessary temperature. Most embedded coil radiant floors run about 80 to 100 degree water in them. You generally want the floor surface no higher than 80 degrees. Then again, if it worked well before, there is no reason that it wouldn't still work as well today with it piped just as it is.
I can't answer any questions on how your relays, thermostats and zone valves are wired to the boiler or circulator pumps. Every job that I worked on had custom controls and I was usually the person that designed those controls. I have no experience with off-the-shelf relay panels.
#14
I spent a little time this afternoon sketching up a diagram of your piping. I was intrigued by the radiant setup, and couldn't quite visualize what was going on... now that I have a sketch, I can, and it is interesting.
The way the aquastat is wired, it isn't controlling the circulator directly as I initially thought. It's in series with the basement thermostat, so that when the water gets to a certain temp, it will close the zone valve, and in turn shut down the boiler if it's the only zone calling.
There's a piece of the puzzle still missing though; how that circulator is being controlled. There are a few switches on the wall, and what looks like a piece of BX tucked in there. My guess is that circulator is run manually from one of those switches, yes ?
What I can gather from this diagram is that it's possible for the basement circ to run even when the zone valve is closed, and the boiler is off, and simply recirculate the water in the floor loops through the check valve. Then, when the water cools to below the setpoint on the 6006, the zone valve will open, the boiler will fire, and the flow will be through the boiler, into the basement loop until the 6006 is satisfied again. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that basement circulator was set up to run constantly, either recirculating the loop, or when the zone valve opens, injecting hot water into the loop as needed to maintain the setpoint on the 6006.
And, after I understood it, I thought it didn't look like a terribly crude way of doing things after all! Actually pretty advanced for 1971! So yeah, I lose, but I win too, because I lernt something!
The only drawback to this scheme is that circulator running 24/7 during the heating season is gonna eat some KWH. I would seriously consider changing that one out to either a 007 or a 15-58 3-speed. The reason I suggest the 15-58 is because chances are pretty good that you can run it on low speed, and save even more electricity.
I'd probably go for the same for the other circ also...
The way the aquastat is wired, it isn't controlling the circulator directly as I initially thought. It's in series with the basement thermostat, so that when the water gets to a certain temp, it will close the zone valve, and in turn shut down the boiler if it's the only zone calling.
There's a piece of the puzzle still missing though; how that circulator is being controlled. There are a few switches on the wall, and what looks like a piece of BX tucked in there. My guess is that circulator is run manually from one of those switches, yes ?
What I can gather from this diagram is that it's possible for the basement circ to run even when the zone valve is closed, and the boiler is off, and simply recirculate the water in the floor loops through the check valve. Then, when the water cools to below the setpoint on the 6006, the zone valve will open, the boiler will fire, and the flow will be through the boiler, into the basement loop until the 6006 is satisfied again. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that basement circulator was set up to run constantly, either recirculating the loop, or when the zone valve opens, injecting hot water into the loop as needed to maintain the setpoint on the 6006.
And, after I understood it, I thought it didn't look like a terribly crude way of doing things after all! Actually pretty advanced for 1971! So yeah, I lose, but I win too, because I lernt something!
The only drawback to this scheme is that circulator running 24/7 during the heating season is gonna eat some KWH. I would seriously consider changing that one out to either a 007 or a 15-58 3-speed. The reason I suggest the 15-58 is because chances are pretty good that you can run it on low speed, and save even more electricity.
I'd probably go for the same for the other circ also...
Last edited by NJT; 04-05-08 at 10:51 PM.
#15
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Wrapping-up (?) zone valve motor and pump concerns ...
RE: furd - post #13 ...
I got that it was humorous, but I also got the impression you were used to dealing with more complex systems - no offense intended and my response was also light-hearted.
Searching, I found motors at various places, but eBay has several in one place - take a look and then you'll see what I'm talking about. The housings all look the same, I'm guessing they are all made by the same company. It's likely that just the "guts" are different. So, if I can find one that meets my specs (24V 60HZ 5W 6RPM) it will likely work fine.
Actually, when I just checked to create the eBay link, it looks like Patriot-Supply has the exact replacement! The stamped number is not an exact match for the motor I have in hand (19 190) but when I checked the picture of the ZV still installed it was the same (190190) as the Patriot-Supply pic at eBay! So, now I know they are out there and where I can get one.
No, I haven't touched it. For all I knew, just touching it could have made it worse - from steady drip to full stream!
RE: Trooper - post #14 ...
I think you are right. I know that when you look at that wall, you see three "light switches" mounted on a stud. I know the top one is for the overhead light, the middle one is the cut-off power switch for the boiler and the bottom one may have been connected directly to the missing circulator - I do not know for sure - I'll find out.
About your guess, it is the same as mine. On the system tour, below the aquastat photo, I wrote:
"I am guessing, because it is connected to the zone valve, that it may allow re-circulation of the water in the floor - without returning to the boiler - has long the water temp is above the temp setting on the aquastat." - and then I asked ... "Since the pump for the basement zone has been removed - if my guess is correct - can this work?"
I'm glad your intrigued by this system and since you've taken an interest, can this work with just one circulator?
I like the diagram, but I can't tell if it works the way you have it diagrammed. Where, in the actual piping, is that check valve located? Is it in that bulge that is located on the upper cross connection, above the pump? Is it a temperature sensitive valve or powered some how?
You talked about a mixing valve, how would that be integrated into this system? With a mixing valve, can the system run with just one circulator?
I've read lots of remarks about the Taco 007, but "15-58 3-speed" is new. Who makes it? Can you give me more info - Make/model - so that I can do some research/pricing.
From what I understand, power here is cheaper than other parts of the country and although saving power is generally a good thing, in this specific case, right now I am leaning toward sticking with the current pumps.
Here is my current thoughts on the pumps ... since we have seals & gaskets, go ahead and put them in while doing the other work, then start the system up and if no more leak - problem solved. My dad will have heat & no leak for the few months left in this heating season and I have time to work out any improvements/upgrades - that can be done over the summer.
If the pump still leaks, then it's time to get a Taco 007 or that "15-58 3-speed" you mentioned.
What do you think?
Some unanswered questions ...
From post #3 ...
Is there any chance my dad damaged the valve?
Any reason I cannot use it?
From post #12 ...
Which is best, splice or re-soldered the wires?
I know it should be 24vac, but is there an acceptable range?
Does 27.5vac indicate a problem?
More progress! - where were, where we are now, what's left ...
Where we were:
- pressure way too high, consistently 30psi and higher (according to boiler gauge)
- circulating pump always on and started leaking a few weeks ago
- one zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed
Where we are at now: - Unless I hear otherwise, it looks like ...
- after all repairs, pressure won't be a problem
- pump always on problem is solved (will be fixed when zone valve fixed)
- zone valve can be fixed with just a new motor
- replace seals on pump - if still leaks, replace pump with ???
Current parts list:
- ASME rated safety valve with Min. 105.6 lbs hr capacity
- Temperature/pressure gauge
- zone valve motor
- Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve (in hand)
- pump seals (in hand)
My quip about the air compressors and cooling towers was supposed to be humorous.
In regard to changing the zone valve motor...IF you can find the replacement ...
Actually, when I just checked to create the eBay link, it looks like Patriot-Supply has the exact replacement! The stamped number is not an exact match for the motor I have in hand (19 190) but when I checked the picture of the ZV still installed it was the same (190190) as the Patriot-Supply pic at eBay! So, now I know they are out there and where I can get one.
You did try just tightening those four bolts, didn't you?
RE: Trooper - post #14 ...
The way the aquastat is wired, ... It's in series with the basement thermostat, so that when the water gets to a certain temp, it will close the zone valve, and in turn shut down the boiler if it's the only zone calling.
There's a piece of the puzzle still missing though; how that circulator is being controlled. There are a few switches on the wall, and what looks like a piece of BX tucked in there. My guess is that circulator is run manually from one of those switches, yes ?
There's a piece of the puzzle still missing though; how that circulator is being controlled. There are a few switches on the wall, and what looks like a piece of BX tucked in there. My guess is that circulator is run manually from one of those switches, yes ?
About your guess, it is the same as mine. On the system tour, below the aquastat photo, I wrote:
"I am guessing, because it is connected to the zone valve, that it may allow re-circulation of the water in the floor - without returning to the boiler - has long the water temp is above the temp setting on the aquastat." - and then I asked ... "Since the pump for the basement zone has been removed - if my guess is correct - can this work?"
I'm glad your intrigued by this system and since you've taken an interest, can this work with just one circulator?
I like the diagram, but I can't tell if it works the way you have it diagrammed. Where, in the actual piping, is that check valve located? Is it in that bulge that is located on the upper cross connection, above the pump? Is it a temperature sensitive valve or powered some how?
You talked about a mixing valve, how would that be integrated into this system? With a mixing valve, can the system run with just one circulator?
... 15-58 3-speed.
From what I understand, power here is cheaper than other parts of the country and although saving power is generally a good thing, in this specific case, right now I am leaning toward sticking with the current pumps.
Here is my current thoughts on the pumps ... since we have seals & gaskets, go ahead and put them in while doing the other work, then start the system up and if no more leak - problem solved. My dad will have heat & no leak for the few months left in this heating season and I have time to work out any improvements/upgrades - that can be done over the summer.
If the pump still leaks, then it's time to get a Taco 007 or that "15-58 3-speed" you mentioned.
What do you think?
Some unanswered questions ...
From post #3 ...
... I have got a new Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve in hand, from when my dad bought this combination valve to "fix" the leaking safety valve - so unless it is possible that the valve was damaged when he converted the dual unit to single units, I figure since the current Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve is old and leaking - I should just replace it.
Any reason I cannot use it?
From post #12 ...
... "two easily accessible screws permit removal of the motor." This is partly true, two screws hold the motor to the head, but the wires for the motor are soldered to the head terminals. ... When replacing, should I cut/splice or re-soldered the wires?
I found 27.5 vac at the transformer & zone valves - is this okay or does it indicate a problem?
Does 27.5vac indicate a problem?
More progress! - where were, where we are now, what's left ...
Where we were:
- pressure way too high, consistently 30psi and higher (according to boiler gauge)
- circulating pump always on and started leaking a few weeks ago
- one zone valve not working - stuck partially opened/closed
Where we are at now: - Unless I hear otherwise, it looks like ...
- after all repairs, pressure won't be a problem
- pump always on problem is solved (will be fixed when zone valve fixed)
- zone valve can be fixed with just a new motor
- replace seals on pump - if still leaks, replace pump with ???
Current parts list:
- ASME rated safety valve with Min. 105.6 lbs hr capacity
- Temperature/pressure gauge
- zone valve motor
- Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve (in hand)
- pump seals (in hand)
#16
I've been kinda lax answering your questions cuz I'm still trying to get my head around the whole project ... so:
Yes, in a way... when the basement t'stat calls, the zone valve would open, and the boiler would fire. It would continue to run and circulate water through the floor until the a'stat was satisfied, then shut down. Depending on how much flow you get through the two floor loops, and how long those loops are, you may or may not get that hot water all the way to the end of the loop, resulting in _possibly_ uneven heating of the floor. Whether or not that would be a problem is unknown, it might work just fine. Try it! Leave the second pump disconnected and see what you think. Nothing to lose...
You _could_ install a single zone relay such as a Taco SR501 and control the floor circ based on the t'stat calling, but it might be an entirely unnecessary extra amount of work and expense.
Yes, that bronze thing above the pump. It's a simple 'swing check' valve. There's a 'door' that swings only one way. When both pumps are running, _most_ of the flow bypasses that connection, returning instead through the boiler. When the zone valve closes, the flow would continue with all the flow from the floor pump through the CV. Water goes from high pressure to low pressure, so the actual amount of flow through the check valve depends on the differential pressure across the check valve when only one or both pumps are running and the zone valve is open.
Yeah, scratch that idea, I see nothing wrong with the setup at all the way it is.
Grundfos. You can get them for around $65 or so. Ebay, or Patriot. In spite of cheap electric, they consume a LOT less energy.
I suppose it's always possible, is it 'mangled' ?
When you replace that, it would be a very good idea to install a backflow preventer in the line. (most codes require them these days) Watts 9D is an example. You can buy the Watts 1156 reducing valve as a combo with the 9D, or it can be purchased individually if you decide to use the reducing valve that you have. A ball valve on either side of the reducing valve and backflow preventer would make future service very easy. (and a _positive_ shut off of the water supply much more positive.)
Personally I see no reason not to simply cut the wires and use small wire nuts to connect the new one.
No, not at all. Most if not all so-called 24V transformers will produce 27-28 V .
I think that's all the unanswered questions ...
When you have the system 'down' for the service, plan on installing a ball valve in the line to the expansion tank. If you also install a drain between the valve and the tank, it makes changing/checking the tank very easy.
Did I post this pic earlier ? You don't need the pressure gauge, and you will probably want to use black iron nipples and tees instead of copper (stronger and cheaper), but this is the basic idea.
If you really wanted to 'get into it', and probably eliminate the 'air lock' problem forever, some changes to the location of the expansion tank would go a long way. I need to look at your presentation again, but I don't think I saw an 'air scoop'. Google up "point of no pressure change" (use the quotes in the search term) and read up on that. You'll have questions, we're here for ya !
can this work with just one circulator?
You _could_ install a single zone relay such as a Taco SR501 and control the floor circ based on the t'stat calling, but it might be an entirely unnecessary extra amount of work and expense.
Where, in the actual piping, is that check valve located?
You talked about a mixing valve
Who makes it? [15-58]
Is there any chance my dad damaged the valve?
When you replace that, it would be a very good idea to install a backflow preventer in the line. (most codes require them these days) Watts 9D is an example. You can buy the Watts 1156 reducing valve as a combo with the 9D, or it can be purchased individually if you decide to use the reducing valve that you have. A ball valve on either side of the reducing valve and backflow preventer would make future service very easy. (and a _positive_ shut off of the water supply much more positive.)
Which is best, splice or re-soldered the wires?
Does 27.5vac indicate a problem?
I think that's all the unanswered questions ...
When you have the system 'down' for the service, plan on installing a ball valve in the line to the expansion tank. If you also install a drain between the valve and the tank, it makes changing/checking the tank very easy.
Did I post this pic earlier ? You don't need the pressure gauge, and you will probably want to use black iron nipples and tees instead of copper (stronger and cheaper), but this is the basic idea.
If you really wanted to 'get into it', and probably eliminate the 'air lock' problem forever, some changes to the location of the expansion tank would go a long way. I need to look at your presentation again, but I don't think I saw an 'air scoop'. Google up "point of no pressure change" (use the quotes in the search term) and read up on that. You'll have questions, we're here for ya !
#17
I don't see a big problem moving the expansion tank.
You could remove the section of copper pipe between the system circulator and the tee to the zone valves. Replace that with black iron, with a tee, come off that tee and hang the tank there.
Adding an air scoop might be a bit more 'problematic' though.
It appears that there's plenty of room in the run with the reducing valve for the backflow preventer and the extra ball valve. I guess you could continue to use the shut-off valve that's there already on the inlet side, just add a ball valve on the other side.
P.S. don't use any galvanized pipe.
You could remove the section of copper pipe between the system circulator and the tee to the zone valves. Replace that with black iron, with a tee, come off that tee and hang the tank there.
Adding an air scoop might be a bit more 'problematic' though.
It appears that there's plenty of room in the run with the reducing valve for the backflow preventer and the extra ball valve. I guess you could continue to use the shut-off valve that's there already on the inlet side, just add a ball valve on the other side.
P.S. don't use any galvanized pipe.
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Looks like it's time to start buy'n some stuff ...
Trooper, thanks for all the help - you too furd.
RE: Trooper - post #16 ...
Sounds good, to me. If you are right about that wall switch controlling the second circ. pump, I will probably hook it up and then they will have the option of running one pump or two.
I'll look into the Grundfos "15-58 3-speed" and consider it or the Taco 007 as my plan B if the B&G pumps have problems - or for installing this summer.
About the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve from the B&G Dual unit ...
No it doesn't look damaged in any way.
As I said before I've tried to do a lot of research on all this and I thought I read something about the valves being somewhat fragile, that they should be handled with care - i.e. not dropped. That may have been about safety valves and it may not apply to auto-fill valves. I guess, since I don't know for sure what he did, what I am asking is, are these valves delicate? Are they easily damaged?
About the expansion tank photo & 'air scoop' ...
No, you did not post that pic to me, but I had found it reading other posts and have it in a folder labeled "improvements."
On the system tour you'll see a green cylinder just to the right and above the expansion tank. Click on it and you will see a close-up photo and I wrote ...
"Auto-air-bleeder / air purger / air scoop: I don't know if these are different terms for the same thing or if they describe different devices. I have seen all of them used in different posts. Please let me know which is correct. This seems to be a float valve device and seems to work well."
So, is an 'air scoop' different then what they have?
Maybe I haven't been clear, but it is my belief that there never was an 'air lock' problem. I believe that zone valve has been bad for a very long time. For years my mom complained about little heat in the bedroom and for years my dad has been bleeding the system. When I manually opened the zone valve back in December, they had good heat for the first time in years.
I wrote about this on the system tour, click on a zone valve and then on any of the zone valve views, scroll down to "tests run" and then to "Manually operated zone valve switch - back zone."
That little green float valve thing, whatever it is called, let all the air out of that zone all by its self - and there was a lot - it kinda scared me a little at the time. That's how I concluded it works well - plus I usually hear it release a little air at least once while I'm there working around the boiler.
Even after only a little reading on these systems, I could see this system was lacking in the isolation valve department - in fact at the end of my first post here I wrote ...
But that does bring up a few questions I have about isolation valves ... are ball valves best? Why? Are the valves for heated water different than "water-line valves" at my local home improvement store? In other words do I need to go to a plumbing supplier or just Home Depot?
(By the way, I have often read in posts here, that a lot of this Hydronic Heat stuff is available at Lowe's/Home Depot - but I haven't found that to be true here in the mild climate of the Northwest. I don't think Hydronic Heat is very common out here. )
At this point I think I have a handle on all the urgent issues, but since you still seem curious about the set-up here, I'll throw this at you ...
If you go to the system tour and look just above the boiler, there is a large isolation/shut-off valve on the "hot-out" pipe. I'm wondering if you think it works the way I do - and it just might explain why there are so few isolation valves.
My guess is, that by closing that valve, before releasing pressure to open the system for service, you get a vacuum (that finger on the end of a straw effect) that holds most of the water in the upper zones. Then when you are re-filling, if you leave that valve closed, the feed is forced up into the upper zones, pushing any air into the boiler and out the green float valve. Once the float valve stops purging air, you can open that valve and turn the power on/start the boiler.
What do you think?
Thanks again for everything ...
RE: Trooper - post #16 ...
Try it! Leave the second pump disconnected and see what you think. Nothing to lose...
I'll look into the Grundfos "15-58 3-speed" and consider it or the Taco 007 as my plan B if the B&G pumps have problems - or for installing this summer.
About the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve from the B&G Dual unit ...
No it doesn't look damaged in any way.
As I said before I've tried to do a lot of research on all this and I thought I read something about the valves being somewhat fragile, that they should be handled with care - i.e. not dropped. That may have been about safety valves and it may not apply to auto-fill valves. I guess, since I don't know for sure what he did, what I am asking is, are these valves delicate? Are they easily damaged?
About the expansion tank photo & 'air scoop' ...
No, you did not post that pic to me, but I had found it reading other posts and have it in a folder labeled "improvements."
On the system tour you'll see a green cylinder just to the right and above the expansion tank. Click on it and you will see a close-up photo and I wrote ...
"Auto-air-bleeder / air purger / air scoop: I don't know if these are different terms for the same thing or if they describe different devices. I have seen all of them used in different posts. Please let me know which is correct. This seems to be a float valve device and seems to work well."
So, is an 'air scoop' different then what they have?
If you really wanted to 'get into it', and probably eliminate the 'air lock' problem forever ...
I wrote about this on the system tour, click on a zone valve and then on any of the zone valve views, scroll down to "tests run" and then to "Manually operated zone valve switch - back zone."
That little green float valve thing, whatever it is called, let all the air out of that zone all by its self - and there was a lot - it kinda scared me a little at the time. That's how I concluded it works well - plus I usually hear it release a little air at least once while I'm there working around the boiler.
When you have the system 'down' for the service, plan on installing a ball valve in the line to the expansion tank. If you also install a drain between the valve and the tank, it makes changing/checking the tank very easy.
After they get through this heating season, I'll be looking at making some improvements - like adding a bunch of isolation valves - while the system is down for the summer.
(By the way, I have often read in posts here, that a lot of this Hydronic Heat stuff is available at Lowe's/Home Depot - but I haven't found that to be true here in the mild climate of the Northwest. I don't think Hydronic Heat is very common out here. )
At this point I think I have a handle on all the urgent issues, but since you still seem curious about the set-up here, I'll throw this at you ...
If you go to the system tour and look just above the boiler, there is a large isolation/shut-off valve on the "hot-out" pipe. I'm wondering if you think it works the way I do - and it just might explain why there are so few isolation valves.
My guess is, that by closing that valve, before releasing pressure to open the system for service, you get a vacuum (that finger on the end of a straw effect) that holds most of the water in the upper zones. Then when you are re-filling, if you leave that valve closed, the feed is forced up into the upper zones, pushing any air into the boiler and out the green float valve. Once the float valve stops purging air, you can open that valve and turn the power on/start the boiler.
What do you think?
Thanks again for everything ...
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Where abouts in the northwest is this house located? I live about ten miles north of Seattle and if it isn't too far (a relative term, I know) I would be willing to help in person. I need something to stimulate my mind.
As for the big box stores in this area not carrying hydronic parts...you are absolutely correct. I suspect that if you asked 100 of the guys in orange aprons or blue & red vests about anything concerning hydronic heating there would be 98 that would look at you as if you were nuts.
The B&G reducing valve (auto fill valve) isn't particularly delicate. I would not advise using one as a substitute hammer or throwing it on the floor to see how high it will bounce but as long as the body hasn't been visibly damaged it will probably be okay. I prefer Watts but the B&G is fine since you have it.
That "green cylinder" is a Hoffman (brand) float type air vent. It is a good unit with high capacity venting.
If this system has been working without an air eliminator / air scoop / air purger for all these years I wouldn't install one now. Air comes into a system with the make-up water so if you don't have any water loss you won't have any make-up and consequently no additional air. The air has a tendency to come out of solution when the water is heated so having the Hoffman vent piped directly to the boiler will eliminate most of the air. I don't know what type (if any) air vents you have on the baseboard convectors but I like the little B&G float vents there.
When I replaced the boiler in my parent's system (long time ago) I did not re-install the air eliminator and all it took was one round of manual bleeding at that beginning of the heating season and the system worked flawlessly. If I hadn't drained any water from the system in doing annual maintenance it wouldn't have needed any bleeding.
Ball valves are not necessarily "best" for all applications but I will state that they are usually the best valves for ANY use in a residential setting. They have a stainless steel ball that seats against Teflon blocks rather than a metal-to-metal seat and disc (or a metal-to-rubber or composition seat and disc) in a gate or globe valve. They have almost zero chance of leaking other than from a manufacturing defect and they rarely stick in one position. They offer the least resistance to flow of any valve.
With valves you pretty much get what you pay for. I haven't looked at the valves in the big box stores lately but for residential uses (including hydronic heating) the valves are pretty much the same. You don't want to use any valve that depends upon rubber for sealing. Good names for ball valves are Apollo and Watts.
I would not depend on the soda straw analogy in working on the system. I suspect that there as few isolation valves as there is simply because isolation valves in residential work are uncommon because they are rarely used but do increase the cost of the installation.
As for the big box stores in this area not carrying hydronic parts...you are absolutely correct. I suspect that if you asked 100 of the guys in orange aprons or blue & red vests about anything concerning hydronic heating there would be 98 that would look at you as if you were nuts.
The B&G reducing valve (auto fill valve) isn't particularly delicate. I would not advise using one as a substitute hammer or throwing it on the floor to see how high it will bounce but as long as the body hasn't been visibly damaged it will probably be okay. I prefer Watts but the B&G is fine since you have it.
That "green cylinder" is a Hoffman (brand) float type air vent. It is a good unit with high capacity venting.
If this system has been working without an air eliminator / air scoop / air purger for all these years I wouldn't install one now. Air comes into a system with the make-up water so if you don't have any water loss you won't have any make-up and consequently no additional air. The air has a tendency to come out of solution when the water is heated so having the Hoffman vent piped directly to the boiler will eliminate most of the air. I don't know what type (if any) air vents you have on the baseboard convectors but I like the little B&G float vents there.
When I replaced the boiler in my parent's system (long time ago) I did not re-install the air eliminator and all it took was one round of manual bleeding at that beginning of the heating season and the system worked flawlessly. If I hadn't drained any water from the system in doing annual maintenance it wouldn't have needed any bleeding.
Ball valves are not necessarily "best" for all applications but I will state that they are usually the best valves for ANY use in a residential setting. They have a stainless steel ball that seats against Teflon blocks rather than a metal-to-metal seat and disc (or a metal-to-rubber or composition seat and disc) in a gate or globe valve. They have almost zero chance of leaking other than from a manufacturing defect and they rarely stick in one position. They offer the least resistance to flow of any valve.
With valves you pretty much get what you pay for. I haven't looked at the valves in the big box stores lately but for residential uses (including hydronic heating) the valves are pretty much the same. You don't want to use any valve that depends upon rubber for sealing. Good names for ball valves are Apollo and Watts.
I would not depend on the soda straw analogy in working on the system. I suspect that there as few isolation valves as there is simply because isolation valves in residential work are uncommon because they are rarely used but do increase the cost of the installation.
#20
[furd hit send before I did! do I hear an echo ? what do they say about great minds?]
I dunno really... but I've never played football with one!
If it doesn't appear all beat up, it's probably fine. I suppose you could always test it if unsure. Pick up a 3/4" hose to 1/2" NPT fitting, and an adapter so you can screw a pressure gauge in the outlet. Put city pressure on one side, loosen the gauge on the outlet to bleed any air, tighten it back down and let it sit. But, I don't think it's necessary, it's probably fine.
Yes. The green thing is simply an automatic air vent. An air scoop device is designed to go 'in-line' in the piping, and it catches any air flowing through the pipes. You may not _need_ one though. If that boiler is designed such that the supply outlet pipe actually 'dips' into the water below the level of the pipe that the vent is installed on, the boiler itself will act as an air scoop. Any air that gets pushed into the boiler will collect at the top and get vented.
If your diagnosis is correct that the air in the zone was due to the zone valve being defective and allowing the air to 'trap' there, then you might be fine without one.
If you google "air scoop" and/or SPIRO-VENT you will see examples of what they look like and what they do. The 'micro-scrubbers' like the Spiro-vent do a superior job than the simple air scoops, but they cost a LOT more.
"Best" is application specific. Some types of valves are better in some applications than others. Ball valves have the advantages that they offer very little resistance to flow, and they generally offer a 100% closure. There are three types of ball valves. 'FULL PORT', 'STANDARD PORT', and 'REDUCED PORT'. In general, you would want FULL port valves if you were concerned about flow.
I like them because they CLOSE when you need them to.
The ones that HD sells are likely OK to use, but they are probably not as good a quality as something like Webstone, Apollo, Watts, etc ... you'll probably get chinese junk at your local supply also, unless you tell them you don't want that. They may stock the better brands. You could always order on-line too ... Patriot Supply, Houseneeds.com, etc ... Personally, I wouldn't skimp on the valves. Buy American. (same goes for black iron pipe and fittings... insist on American made!)
(regarding the valve on the supply out)
That valve can help you fill and purge. By closing that valve, fill water will be forced UP the supply, through the zones, and down the returns (IF the zone valve is open). So, with a hose on the drain valve, the supply valve closed, and manually opening a zone valve, you can 'direct' the water to flow through whatever zone you want. If that valve wasn't there, and you wanted to 'purge' a zone, the water would flow back through the boiler and out the drain without ever going into the zone. I'm not sure if this is what you are thinking or asking though.
are these valves delicate? Are they easily damaged?
If it doesn't appear all beat up, it's probably fine. I suppose you could always test it if unsure. Pick up a 3/4" hose to 1/2" NPT fitting, and an adapter so you can screw a pressure gauge in the outlet. Put city pressure on one side, loosen the gauge on the outlet to bleed any air, tighten it back down and let it sit. But, I don't think it's necessary, it's probably fine.
So, is an 'air scoop' different then what they have?
If your diagnosis is correct that the air in the zone was due to the zone valve being defective and allowing the air to 'trap' there, then you might be fine without one.
If you google "air scoop" and/or SPIRO-VENT you will see examples of what they look like and what they do. The 'micro-scrubbers' like the Spiro-vent do a superior job than the simple air scoops, but they cost a LOT more.
are ball valves best? Why? Are the valves for heated water different than "water-line valves" at my local home improvement store? In other words do I need to go to a plumbing supplier or just Home Depot?
I like them because they CLOSE when you need them to.
The ones that HD sells are likely OK to use, but they are probably not as good a quality as something like Webstone, Apollo, Watts, etc ... you'll probably get chinese junk at your local supply also, unless you tell them you don't want that. They may stock the better brands. You could always order on-line too ... Patriot Supply, Houseneeds.com, etc ... Personally, I wouldn't skimp on the valves. Buy American. (same goes for black iron pipe and fittings... insist on American made!)
What do you think?
That valve can help you fill and purge. By closing that valve, fill water will be forced UP the supply, through the zones, and down the returns (IF the zone valve is open). So, with a hose on the drain valve, the supply valve closed, and manually opening a zone valve, you can 'direct' the water to flow through whatever zone you want. If that valve wasn't there, and you wanted to 'purge' a zone, the water would flow back through the boiler and out the drain without ever going into the zone. I'm not sure if this is what you are thinking or asking though.
#21
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furd, thanks for all the info
I never knew the difference between the valves - thanks.
Also, sounds like I'll be using that B&G Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve for sure.
So is an air vent different than a air eliminator / Auto-air-bleeder / air purger / air scoop? Just curious, no need for details.
The system is in Edgewood - South of Seattle, just North of Puyallup and East of Tacoma. If you have ever driven down Meridian on your way to the Puyallup Fair/Western Washington Fair, you passed within a mile of their place.
Although, I'd appreciate having someone there that knows what they're doing - it is my dad's house, so your opportunity to "stimulate your mind" would be up to him, assuming you're up for the drive.
Thanks again ...
Also, sounds like I'll be using that B&G Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve for sure.
That "green cylinder" is a Hoffman (brand) float type air vent. It is a good unit with high capacity venting.
Where abouts in the northwest is this house located? I live about ten miles north of Seattle and if it isn't too far (a relative term, I know) I would be willing to help in person. I need something to stimulate my mind.
Although, I'd appreciate having someone there that knows what they're doing - it is my dad's house, so your opportunity to "stimulate your mind" would be up to him, assuming you're up for the drive.
Thanks again ...
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Okay, I now know more, than I thought there could be to know, about ball valves
Trooper, thanks for the additional info. on air eliminators & ball valves.
About that valve on the supply out ...
Thanks for this - it just helped me put together a few bits of info I've gathered about this whole air-lock/bleeding thing my dad's been doing.
When I was out there last Friday, I explained to him why all his bleeding had done nothing for the lack of heat in the bedrooms (remember, originally that zone valve was stuck almost completely closed). With the zone valve closed, he was, at best, only bleeding the other zones (depending on what, if any, valve was open). But I also found out that he never used that valve on the supply out - it's stuck.
So, like you said, it's likely all his "bleeding" was really just passing through the boiler and out the drain!
In my mind, I had always planned on closing that valve and when he told me he didn't use it, that it was stuck, it didn't click in my mind. All I told him was that he should start putting some penetrating fluid on the valve because we where going to need to be able to free it or replace it.
Now that I know this, that Hoffman (brand) float type air vent must work really great! Because back in December, when I manually opened that valve, not only did it let all the trapped air out, without any bleeding, but when it was done, everything was nice and quiet as it should be.
Of course, I also realize now, that my manually opening that zone valve caused the "pump always on problem" - because it got stuck open. But hey, I probably wouldn't have learned as much about the electrical system if the pump was cycling normally.
What's PM's?
And about furd's offer, as I said, having furd there to help would be great for me - remove all that uncertainty when doing something for the first time - but it's not my place, so it's not my decision. I don't know why my dad would turn down such a great offer, but he can be unpredictable.
About that valve on the supply out ...
(regarding the valve on the supply out)
That valve can help you fill and purge. By closing that valve, fill water will be forced UP the supply, through the zones, and down the returns (IF the zone valve is open). So, with a hose on the drain valve, the supply valve closed, and manually opening a zone valve, you can 'direct' the water to flow through whatever zone you want. If that valve wasn't there, and you wanted to 'purge' a zone, the water would flow back through the boiler and out the drain without ever going into the zone.
That valve can help you fill and purge. By closing that valve, fill water will be forced UP the supply, through the zones, and down the returns (IF the zone valve is open). So, with a hose on the drain valve, the supply valve closed, and manually opening a zone valve, you can 'direct' the water to flow through whatever zone you want. If that valve wasn't there, and you wanted to 'purge' a zone, the water would flow back through the boiler and out the drain without ever going into the zone.
When I was out there last Friday, I explained to him why all his bleeding had done nothing for the lack of heat in the bedrooms (remember, originally that zone valve was stuck almost completely closed). With the zone valve closed, he was, at best, only bleeding the other zones (depending on what, if any, valve was open). But I also found out that he never used that valve on the supply out - it's stuck.
So, like you said, it's likely all his "bleeding" was really just passing through the boiler and out the drain!
In my mind, I had always planned on closing that valve and when he told me he didn't use it, that it was stuck, it didn't click in my mind. All I told him was that he should start putting some penetrating fluid on the valve because we where going to need to be able to free it or replace it.
Now that I know this, that Hoffman (brand) float type air vent must work really great! Because back in December, when I manually opened that valve, not only did it let all the trapped air out, without any bleeding, but when it was done, everything was nice and quiet as it should be.
Of course, I also realize now, that my manually opening that zone valve caused the "pump always on problem" - because it got stuck open. But hey, I probably wouldn't have learned as much about the electrical system if the pump was cycling normally.
md, you got your PM's turnt off ?
And about furd's offer, as I said, having furd there to help would be great for me - remove all that uncertainty when doing something for the first time - but it's not my place, so it's not my decision. I don't know why my dad would turn down such a great offer, but he can be unpredictable.
#24
All I told him was that he should start putting some penetrating fluid on the valve because we where going to need to be able to free it or replace it.
Also, if you look at the tee that branches off to the floor zone, there's some whitish/greenish deposit there... that is probably a leak that should be repaired. It may never leak again, but nevertheless... might as well replace the valve and repair that leak while yer at it.
I also just noticed that there is a 'balancing valve' on the horizontal run of pipe off the supply to the floor zone. That one is a 'butterfly valve'. Inside there is a 'vane', much like in an automotive throttle body, or carburetor. Apparently the designer felt that zone needed less flow... and if he was right, another reason to consider the 3 speed pump.
What's PM's?
[Dad] can be unpredictable
#25
Ya know... I think my Uncle taught High School in Edgewood... I need to check some records, if I can find 'em .
If ya don't wanna turn on the pm's to everyone, you can put me in your 'buddy' list. I'd like to chat off-forum if that's OK with you.
If ya don't wanna turn on the pm's to everyone, you can put me in your 'buddy' list. I'd like to chat off-forum if that's OK with you.
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I wouldn't be too quick in changing that valve on the boiler outlet. I can't see it all that well because the line to the expansion tank and Hoffman vent is in the way but it looks to me that it may be a globe valve rather than a gate. At any rate, to replace it would require sawing the steel pipe and replacing it with two short nipples and a union, not a job to take on a whim. If it is stuck open it just means that you will lose a bit more water when draining down to change the pump(s) and various other parts.
What kind of vent valves are installed on the baseboard convectors?
Really, if the system works well in keeping the house warm (with the exception of the faulty zone valve) I would do little other than replacing the defective components. I think I would prefer a black steel pipe substituted for that galvanized pipe going to the expansion tank and vent and I would likely not have it as tall as it it is now. Maybe a few minor changes in the make-up piping.
What kind of vent valves are installed on the baseboard convectors?
Really, if the system works well in keeping the house warm (with the exception of the faulty zone valve) I would do little other than replacing the defective components. I think I would prefer a black steel pipe substituted for that galvanized pipe going to the expansion tank and vent and I would likely not have it as tall as it it is now. Maybe a few minor changes in the make-up piping.
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replys to furd & Trooper - posts #19, 24, 25 & 26
Okay, first, I finally got hold of my parents and furd, if your offer is still good & it's not too far, then you are welcome to come down and experience this mess up close!
Next, I think I successfully added both furd & Trooper to my buddy list and have it set so you can PM me.
About that big stuck valve, I have considered what I would do if it did not un-stick easily - and the conclusion I came to was to leave it as is. Sounds like you guys agree.
I've got to believe that if all that air came out from the back of the house when I opened the closed zone valve, then we can get the air out after service too, without opening that big valve.
Are you talking about near the missing circ pump/aquastat?
If so, I was aware of that, compared to everything else it seemed kinda minor, so I haven't pinpointed the leak, but I think it is from the lower flange.
No Edgewood High - there is a Edgemont Junior High.
If by vent valves you mean bleeders at the baseboards, then originally there were none. I think a few years ago, they had a service tech out, trying to solve the no heat in the bedroom problem and he installed one bleeder, on one baseboard, in the middle of the front zone. Obviously, it was of no help with the back zone, for the bedrooms.
Next, I think I successfully added both furd & Trooper to my buddy list and have it set so you can PM me.
About that big stuck valve, I have considered what I would do if it did not un-stick easily - and the conclusion I came to was to leave it as is. Sounds like you guys agree.
I've got to believe that if all that air came out from the back of the house when I opened the closed zone valve, then we can get the air out after service too, without opening that big valve.
if you look at the tee that branches off to the floor zone, there's some whitish/greenish deposit there... that is probably a leak that should be repaired. It may never leak again, but nevertheless... might as well replace the valve and repair that leak while yer at it.
If so, I was aware of that, compared to everything else it seemed kinda minor, so I haven't pinpointed the leak, but I think it is from the lower flange.
I think my Uncle taught High School in Edgewood...
What kind of vent valves are installed on the baseboard convectors?
#29
Are you talking about near the missing circ pump/aquastat?
It's probably nothing to worry about, but should be looked at. The camera probably makes it look worse than it is.
I also noticed some streaking on the pipe below the zone valve on the right, take a look at that too.
#30
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ASME rated Safety Relief Valve - 1/2" - ?
I started shopping for the parts and ran into trouble right away. The smallest ASME rated Safety Relief Valves I can find are 3/4".
Do 1/2" ASME rated Safety Relief Valves exist?
Do 1/2" ASME rated Safety Relief Valves exist?
#31
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I've never seen one and if they do they are probably special order.
I suspect that the tapping into the boiler IS 3/4 inch and it has a bushing reducing it to 1/2 inch. If it really is 1/2 inch then use a 3/4 inch-to-1/2 inch reducing elbow and a 1/2 inch nipple to mount the 3/4 inch safety valve. You need an elbow anyway so that you can mount the safety valve with the stem vertical.
I suspect that the tapping into the boiler IS 3/4 inch and it has a bushing reducing it to 1/2 inch. If it really is 1/2 inch then use a 3/4 inch-to-1/2 inch reducing elbow and a 1/2 inch nipple to mount the 3/4 inch safety valve. You need an elbow anyway so that you can mount the safety valve with the stem vertical.
#32
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Plans vs. Reality
-- Reality WINS!
My plan was to find out what I needed to do and how to do it. Get all the parts to do it. Then do everything with just one shut down. Well, so much for plans ...
You guys have been great with the, what to do and how part.
Getting parts has proved a bit more challenging than I expect though. While searching for parts I realized the safety valve may be an unusual size (1/2") - so I thought, I guess we can put that off till summer ... then it hit me that all the temp/presser gauges I had seen had the probe coming straight out the back - I need one coming out the side ... so lets put that off ... but I can still do the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve & add some isolation valves to the feed line and the expansion tank ... well ... Trooper, you were right, the better quality ball valves aren't available/on the self here - so I'll have to order them ... meanwhile, the pump is still leaking ... so ...
Time for a new plan, a two step plan.
Since it is supposed to warm up here - low 60's on Saturday - I'm thinking it will be a good time to shut it down, do the pump seals, maybe check the expansion tank charge, maybe change out the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve, but mostly get the leaking pump fixed so my dad doesn't have to keep going up and down the stairs to dump the bucket under the pump.
Plus, I can check to see if that boiler really takes a 1/2" safety valve or if it has been reduced from 3/4" - either way, I'll know for sure what I need to do it right later.
Then, when the system is down for the summer, I can do every thing else.
What do you think, see any problems with my new two step plan? Any suggestions?
My plan was to find out what I needed to do and how to do it. Get all the parts to do it. Then do everything with just one shut down. Well, so much for plans ...
You guys have been great with the, what to do and how part.
Getting parts has proved a bit more challenging than I expect though. While searching for parts I realized the safety valve may be an unusual size (1/2") - so I thought, I guess we can put that off till summer ... then it hit me that all the temp/presser gauges I had seen had the probe coming straight out the back - I need one coming out the side ... so lets put that off ... but I can still do the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve & add some isolation valves to the feed line and the expansion tank ... well ... Trooper, you were right, the better quality ball valves aren't available/on the self here - so I'll have to order them ... meanwhile, the pump is still leaking ... so ...
Time for a new plan, a two step plan.
Since it is supposed to warm up here - low 60's on Saturday - I'm thinking it will be a good time to shut it down, do the pump seals, maybe check the expansion tank charge, maybe change out the Pressure Reducing/Auto-fill valve, but mostly get the leaking pump fixed so my dad doesn't have to keep going up and down the stairs to dump the bucket under the pump.
Plus, I can check to see if that boiler really takes a 1/2" safety valve or if it has been reduced from 3/4" - either way, I'll know for sure what I need to do it right later.
Then, when the system is down for the summer, I can do every thing else.
What do you think, see any problems with my new two step plan? Any suggestions?
#33
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I know that both Watts and Apollo are available in the Seattle area. You won't find them at the big box stores though.
I suggest that you call some of the places listed in the yellow pages under Plumbing Fixtures, Parts & Supplies-Wholesale and Manufacturers.
The company that I used to work for bought all their plumbing supplies from Familian NorthWest but they have since been bought out by Ferguson. Ferguson does have a retail store in North Seattle. Aurora Plumbing, a mile or two north of Ferguson is also a good bet.
I suggest that you call some of the places listed in the yellow pages under Plumbing Fixtures, Parts & Supplies-Wholesale and Manufacturers.
The company that I used to work for bought all their plumbing supplies from Familian NorthWest but they have since been bought out by Ferguson. Ferguson does have a retail store in North Seattle. Aurora Plumbing, a mile or two north of Ferguson is also a good bet.
#34
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Mounting safety valve
furd, thanks for the tips, but I already tried the supply houses close to me and with the price of gas, it's cheaper to pay shipping than drive to the Seattle area and back - so I'll just order online.
But I had a question for you anyway ... in post 31 you said,
That surprised me, with the valve coming out the side of this boiler, I had just assumed it would be mounted so that it was directed to the floor - see option 1 below ...
After your advice, I did some checking and realized that option 2 is correct, right?
So, since Trooper had already told me you can't have a bunch of twist and turns like my dad set-up - what I want to know is - given that to get the stem vertical and then get the flow directed back to 6" from the floor, some turns are required, so ...
- How tight can those turn be?
- Using the letters above - A, B & C - are there any min/max lengths required between turns?
- Anything else I need to know to do this right?
As always, thanks for all your help ...
I talked with my dad today and the pump leak is getting worse, so it looks like I'll be trying to fix that Friday instead of Saturday - so you might be hearing from me ...
But I had a question for you anyway ... in post 31 you said,
... mount the safety valve with the stem vertical ...
After your advice, I did some checking and realized that option 2 is correct, right?
So, since Trooper had already told me you can't have a bunch of twist and turns like my dad set-up - what I want to know is - given that to get the stem vertical and then get the flow directed back to 6" from the floor, some turns are required, so ...
- How tight can those turn be?
- Using the letters above - A, B & C - are there any min/max lengths required between turns?
- Anything else I need to know to do this right?
As always, thanks for all your help ...
I talked with my dad today and the pump leak is getting worse, so it looks like I'll be trying to fix that Friday instead of Saturday - so you might be hearing from me ...
#35
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Why they put that safety valve nozzle (connection) on the side of the boiler I'll never understand.
Yes, option 2 is the correct method.
Dimension A needs to be sufficient to screw the safety valve to the elbow.
Dimension B is irrelevant since the safety valve has a male thread and screws directly into the female thread of the elbow.
Dimension C is not critical in this instance.
Yes, option 2 is the correct method.
Dimension A needs to be sufficient to screw the safety valve to the elbow.
Dimension B is irrelevant since the safety valve has a male thread and screws directly into the female thread of the elbow.
Dimension C is not critical in this instance.
#36
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Mounting safety valve & fixing pump leak
furd, thanks again ... now that I've seen some pdf files on installing safety valves, the side mount does seem strange - all the examples I saw, had it coming out the top.
I included "B" the rise, in case I need to add a piece of pipe between the elbow and the safety valve. I was wondering if there were any min./max. lengths, because it may be better to route the discharge further away from the boiler & circ. pump - IF that is acceptable. I just didn't know.
Some of the examples I saw had some relatively long runs from the safety valve to a floor drain. I wanted to know what my options are.
I dug through my photos to see if I had a good shot of the boiler tap for the safety valve and I found this one ...
Back in post 31 you said ...
Does that look like just a "tapping in" or a bushing?
In preparing to tackle the pump leak, I was going through all the advice you and Trooper have given me and I think I found something I didn't catch the first time through ...
Back in post #13, you said ...
So are you advising me to leave the shaft seal alone & only do the thin body gasket - unless I can see that the shaft seal is leaking?
If so, how do I tell if the shaft seal is leaking? Will there be some obvious sign - obvious to the inexperienced eye?
I've got an instruction sheet for replacing the bearing assembly. Looking at it, it looks like if I am just doing the body gasket, the steps are pretty simple ...
- remove motor (not covered - dad hopefully knows how)
- 1. remove 4-bolts
- 2. remove bearing assembly
- 3. clean/clear old gasket
- 4. install new gasket
- 5. install bearing assembly
- 6. install 4-bolts
- install motor (not covered - dad hopefully knows how)
Does this sound about right?
I also have an instruction sheet for seals & that does sound more involved - sounds like something to avoid doing unless I have to.
I included "B" the rise, in case I need to add a piece of pipe between the elbow and the safety valve. I was wondering if there were any min./max. lengths, because it may be better to route the discharge further away from the boiler & circ. pump - IF that is acceptable. I just didn't know.
Some of the examples I saw had some relatively long runs from the safety valve to a floor drain. I wanted to know what my options are.
I dug through my photos to see if I had a good shot of the boiler tap for the safety valve and I found this one ...
Back in post 31 you said ...
I suspect that the tapping into the boiler IS 3/4 inch and it has a bushing reducing it to 1/2 inch.
In preparing to tackle the pump leak, I was going through all the advice you and Trooper have given me and I think I found something I didn't catch the first time through ...
Back in post #13, you said ...
It looks like the bearing bracket-to-pump body joint is where the leak is. This is just a thin gasket and is easily replaceable. If the shaft seal is leaking then it would need to be replaced also although I personally have never had good luck with the shaft seals. They usually leak immediately or very soon after I have replaced them. If the shaft seal is leaking I recommend replacing the entire bearing assembly including shaft and impeller.
If time isn't too important, or if your dad wants to tinker with it, you could try replacing the shaft seal if it shows evidence of leaking. I think that if the shaft seal seems okay I would just replace the gasket and try it. Worst case is that you will still have the leak.
If time isn't too important, or if your dad wants to tinker with it, you could try replacing the shaft seal if it shows evidence of leaking. I think that if the shaft seal seems okay I would just replace the gasket and try it. Worst case is that you will still have the leak.
If so, how do I tell if the shaft seal is leaking? Will there be some obvious sign - obvious to the inexperienced eye?
I've got an instruction sheet for replacing the bearing assembly. Looking at it, it looks like if I am just doing the body gasket, the steps are pretty simple ...
- remove motor (not covered - dad hopefully knows how)
- 1. remove 4-bolts
- 2. remove bearing assembly
- 3. clean/clear old gasket
- 4. install new gasket
- 5. install bearing assembly
- 6. install 4-bolts
- install motor (not covered - dad hopefully knows how)
Does this sound about right?
I also have an instruction sheet for seals & that does sound more involved - sounds like something to avoid doing unless I have to.
#37
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The safety valve should be mounted as close to the boiler as practicable. The discharge can be a distance although if you are going a long distance (more than 20 feet) or you need to use more than two 90 degree elbows you might want to increase the size of the discharge pipe one size up. I'm pretty sure that the safety valve will have a 3/4 inch size discharge so if yo are going more than 20 feet and/or more than two 90 degree elbows you will want to immediately after the safety valve increase the size of the pipe.
Yes, that is a galvanized reducing bushing in the side of the boiler. If at all possible try to get the wrench on the bushing itself and remove it with the B&G relief valve as a unit. If you can't then screw a 1/2 inch plug or pipe nipple into the bushing before trying to remove it or else you will likely crush the bushing and increase your troubles. If you have them, the best is to put a recessed (Allen) head plug in the bushing and use a socket over the hexagon and a long breaker bar to remove the bushing.
First try tightening the four bolts that hold the bearing bracket to the pump body. If any were loose, see if that slows, or hopefully stops, the leak. If it does stop the leak then spend an hour or two just visiting with your dad.
Looking at the picture of the pump again it does look like the seal is leaking. To remove the pump first lock out the power to the pump and remove the wiring cable. Then remove the four bearing bracket-to-pump body bolts and remove the motor and bearing bracket as an assembly. Remove the four bolts that hold the motor (and motor cradle) to the bearing bracket and carefully separate the two. Inside is the coupling and that needs to be removed from the pump shaft by loosening the Allen head setscrew from the coupler hub.
I think you said you have the instructions on how to replace the seal. I sure hope so, or that you can find them on the Internet because it was a long time ago when I worked on these and I can't remember the procedure. You do want to replace both the rotating and stationary parts of the seal and you do not want to touch the carbon or ceramic faces of the seal as it will likely cause it to leak. I wish you the best of luck in this as I have never had good luck in changing these seals.
Yes, that is a galvanized reducing bushing in the side of the boiler. If at all possible try to get the wrench on the bushing itself and remove it with the B&G relief valve as a unit. If you can't then screw a 1/2 inch plug or pipe nipple into the bushing before trying to remove it or else you will likely crush the bushing and increase your troubles. If you have them, the best is to put a recessed (Allen) head plug in the bushing and use a socket over the hexagon and a long breaker bar to remove the bushing.
First try tightening the four bolts that hold the bearing bracket to the pump body. If any were loose, see if that slows, or hopefully stops, the leak. If it does stop the leak then spend an hour or two just visiting with your dad.
Looking at the picture of the pump again it does look like the seal is leaking. To remove the pump first lock out the power to the pump and remove the wiring cable. Then remove the four bearing bracket-to-pump body bolts and remove the motor and bearing bracket as an assembly. Remove the four bolts that hold the motor (and motor cradle) to the bearing bracket and carefully separate the two. Inside is the coupling and that needs to be removed from the pump shaft by loosening the Allen head setscrew from the coupler hub.
I think you said you have the instructions on how to replace the seal. I sure hope so, or that you can find them on the Internet because it was a long time ago when I worked on these and I can't remember the procedure. You do want to replace both the rotating and stationary parts of the seal and you do not want to touch the carbon or ceramic faces of the seal as it will likely cause it to leak. I wish you the best of luck in this as I have never had good luck in changing these seals.
#38
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Buying new circulators/pumps
Fixing leaking pump - if it could go wrong it did ...
No need for all the details, but right now, I can't even fill the system to see if the leaking pump is fixed - that water feed relief valve, that should not be there, will not seat/close, so I cannot fill the system to check my work. I cannot get a real safety valve to replace it until Tuesday. So, no heat until Tuesday.
Rather than wait and hope everything works, we have decided just to go ahead and buy two new pumps. I would like to be able to order them in time for shipping on Monday so quick replies appreciated.
After considering all the advice I have received, I am leaning towards two Grundfos UPS 15-58's - because of the possibility of running them at a lower speed/energy savings.
They are a little more expensive than the Taco 007 - so do you think we should get the Grundfos or the Taco? Mix and match - one of each - maybe a Taco for the main floor and a Grundfos for the basement that doesn't get much use? And Trooper your guess was right, that switch on the wall did/does control the pump for the basement - so if the pump is on, it is always on.
If it is the Grundfos - I have seen 15-58FC & 15-58FRC - can anyone tell me the difference - what that R means? I could not find any info anywhere - including on the Grundfos site.
Bonus question ... I have seen many positive remarks about Patriot-Supply - selection and pricing - but I cannot find anything using their "search" (slight exaggeration) - is there some trick I am missing or is it really that bad? They have the best price, I have found, for the Grundfos, but although they may carry the other parts I want, I can't find them! Does everyone just call?
Thanks for everything ...
No need for all the details, but right now, I can't even fill the system to see if the leaking pump is fixed - that water feed relief valve, that should not be there, will not seat/close, so I cannot fill the system to check my work. I cannot get a real safety valve to replace it until Tuesday. So, no heat until Tuesday.
Rather than wait and hope everything works, we have decided just to go ahead and buy two new pumps. I would like to be able to order them in time for shipping on Monday so quick replies appreciated.
After considering all the advice I have received, I am leaning towards two Grundfos UPS 15-58's - because of the possibility of running them at a lower speed/energy savings.
They are a little more expensive than the Taco 007 - so do you think we should get the Grundfos or the Taco? Mix and match - one of each - maybe a Taco for the main floor and a Grundfos for the basement that doesn't get much use? And Trooper your guess was right, that switch on the wall did/does control the pump for the basement - so if the pump is on, it is always on.
If it is the Grundfos - I have seen 15-58FC & 15-58FRC - can anyone tell me the difference - what that R means? I could not find any info anywhere - including on the Grundfos site.
Bonus question ... I have seen many positive remarks about Patriot-Supply - selection and pricing - but I cannot find anything using their "search" (slight exaggeration) - is there some trick I am missing or is it really that bad? They have the best price, I have found, for the Grundfos, but although they may carry the other parts I want, I can't find them! Does everyone just call?
Thanks for everything ...
#39
Ahhh, the perils of 'old work' ... good ole Murphy strikes again!
The FC / FRC refers to the 'rotation' of the mounting flanges. It appears that you probably have room for either one.
When you see these little guys in person, you are gonna wonder how they can possibly replace that big ole 100, but they do...
I think the main pump you will probably be running on high speed... to me, it would make a little more sense to use the 007 there, since the replacement cartridges are available everywhere. If a 15-58 went down, it might be a day or two until you had a cartridge 'in hand'. If the basement zone went down, it wouldn't matter... (how long has that pump been inoperable now?)
I'm sure you could probably run the basement on the low speed, but for uniformity, why not just throw the 007 in there also... you DON'T need the IFC models by the way, so you might save a buck or two there, and the standard model pumps a bit more water.
The search on Patriot's site does leave a bit to be desired. You kinda have to know what you are looking for in order for it to work. I find that it's easiest to just call them. You don't get any confirmation if you order on-line either, but the times I have, it's always gone through. Nice folks... I've done considerable business with them.
007 at Patriot
The FC / FRC refers to the 'rotation' of the mounting flanges. It appears that you probably have room for either one.
When you see these little guys in person, you are gonna wonder how they can possibly replace that big ole 100, but they do...
I think the main pump you will probably be running on high speed... to me, it would make a little more sense to use the 007 there, since the replacement cartridges are available everywhere. If a 15-58 went down, it might be a day or two until you had a cartridge 'in hand'. If the basement zone went down, it wouldn't matter... (how long has that pump been inoperable now?)
I'm sure you could probably run the basement on the low speed, but for uniformity, why not just throw the 007 in there also... you DON'T need the IFC models by the way, so you might save a buck or two there, and the standard model pumps a bit more water.
The search on Patriot's site does leave a bit to be desired. You kinda have to know what you are looking for in order for it to work. I find that it's easiest to just call them. You don't get any confirmation if you order on-line either, but the times I have, it's always gone through. Nice folks... I've done considerable business with them.
007 at Patriot
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Getting specific about replacement pumps ...
The FC / FRC refers to the 'rotation' of the mounting flanges.
It appears that you probably have room for either one.
I thought I read something, somewhere, about universal flanges and I know I've read posts where people have said that either the Taco or the Grundfos should replace the B&G pump without modifying the flanges - Is this true/correct?
... it would make a little more sense to use the 007 there, since the replacement cartridges are available everywhere.
Besides, Trooper, back in post #14 you were the one that brought up the 15-58 over the 007 - why the change? Did you pickup some further insight about this system/situation?
Just try'n to make the best choice for them ... thanks.