recessed lighting installation (desperate in need for info)
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recessed lighting installation (desperate in need for info)
Hi,
Does anyone know how much it will cost me if I want to install 5 recessed lights in a newly renovated basement? This will be a new install as I do not have the wiring, recessed fixtures already in place. I would like a ball park figure for the labor cost for the job. I have an electrician who is willing to do the job but will charge me $100+ per hour which is quite expensive. I'd like to know what is the reasonable price for an electrician nowadays. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
VC
Does anyone know how much it will cost me if I want to install 5 recessed lights in a newly renovated basement? This will be a new install as I do not have the wiring, recessed fixtures already in place. I would like a ball park figure for the labor cost for the job. I have an electrician who is willing to do the job but will charge me $100+ per hour which is quite expensive. I'd like to know what is the reasonable price for an electrician nowadays. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
VC
#2
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Veronica - Rates vary by region and even by individual contractors but if this guy wants to charge you $100+ per hour I think it's a rip off. Why not get bids from several local electrical contractors? That way you'll get an idea what the going rates are in your area.
#3
While this rate may seem high to you if you compare it to what you make per hour at your job there are things to consider.
Your company does not bill their customers what they pay you. Companies have overhead like gas, insurance, taxes, utilities and vehicles. These costs need to be covered in order for the company to survive and grow.
Electricians also have years of education in order to learn how to perform the work safely and in a Code compliant manner. They deserve to be fairly compensated.
Does this involve pulling a new circuit and new switches or is the circuit adequate for the new loads?
You didn't say how long this work was expected to take. Are you talking about having just 2 or 3 hours or a full day? This is not new work and will be more expensive than new work. Why didn't you have this done when you renovated the basement?
Sure, you might be able to find someone that doesn't know what they are doing for less. Just think about the money you saved while you worry if the work was done correctly.
PS, a hundred dollars and up per fixture is commonly charged for NEW work in my area.
Your company does not bill their customers what they pay you. Companies have overhead like gas, insurance, taxes, utilities and vehicles. These costs need to be covered in order for the company to survive and grow.
Electricians also have years of education in order to learn how to perform the work safely and in a Code compliant manner. They deserve to be fairly compensated.
Does this involve pulling a new circuit and new switches or is the circuit adequate for the new loads?
You didn't say how long this work was expected to take. Are you talking about having just 2 or 3 hours or a full day? This is not new work and will be more expensive than new work. Why didn't you have this done when you renovated the basement?
Sure, you might be able to find someone that doesn't know what they are doing for less. Just think about the money you saved while you worry if the work was done correctly.
PS, a hundred dollars and up per fixture is commonly charged for NEW work in my area.
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>"PS, a hundred dollars and up per fixture is commonly charged for NEW work in my area."<
and that's why there are so many DIYers doing electrical.
we could certainly discuss overhead, business plans and profit margins. we could even talk about "education". My point was, get some other estimates. IMO $100+/hr remains a ripoff.
Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+.
>"Sure, you might be able to find someone that doesn't know what they are doing for less. Just think about the money you saved while you worry if the work was done correctly." <
Exactly how do you know this guy knows what he's doing? Because he's high priced?
Is this guy a Master with 30 years experience or a kid that pulled wire one summer and just passed the test for his electricians license? Is it a guy that likes being his own boss or a guy that got canned by every EC that he worked for? Too many contractors will charge whatever they think the traffic will bear. All the more reason for multiple estimates. IMO you get a guy recommended by someone you trust and you get more than one estimate.
and that's why there are so many DIYers doing electrical.
we could certainly discuss overhead, business plans and profit margins. we could even talk about "education". My point was, get some other estimates. IMO $100+/hr remains a ripoff.
Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+.
>"Sure, you might be able to find someone that doesn't know what they are doing for less. Just think about the money you saved while you worry if the work was done correctly." <
Exactly how do you know this guy knows what he's doing? Because he's high priced?
Is this guy a Master with 30 years experience or a kid that pulled wire one summer and just passed the test for his electricians license? Is it a guy that likes being his own boss or a guy that got canned by every EC that he worked for? Too many contractors will charge whatever they think the traffic will bear. All the more reason for multiple estimates. IMO you get a guy recommended by someone you trust and you get more than one estimate.
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Thanks for the information. I did called another electrician and he gave me the following quote:
$125.00 per light (parts + labor)
$65 per switch (parts + labor)
The problem is I do not have any referrals. Therefore, I am not sure about the quality of his work.
I am just not sure what the going rate is in the Boston area. Does anyone know what the going rate is for an electrician in the Boston area?
Thanks again.
$125.00 per light (parts + labor)
$65 per switch (parts + labor)
The problem is I do not have any referrals. Therefore, I am not sure about the quality of his work.
I am just not sure what the going rate is in the Boston area. Does anyone know what the going rate is for an electrician in the Boston area?
Thanks again.
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Originally Posted by veronica
Thanks for the information. I did called another electrician and he gave me the following quote:
$125.00 per light (parts + labor)
$65 per switch (parts + labor)
The problem is I do not have any referrals. Therefore, I am not sure about the quality of his work.
I am just not sure what the going rate is in the Boston area. Does anyone know what the going rate is for an electrician in the Boston area?
Thanks again.
$125.00 per light (parts + labor)
$65 per switch (parts + labor)
The problem is I do not have any referrals. Therefore, I am not sure about the quality of his work.
I am just not sure what the going rate is in the Boston area. Does anyone know what the going rate is for an electrician in the Boston area?
Thanks again.
So $800 to buy and install the cans and one switch.
About all you can do is laugh.
This install is not rocket science. Jeez, I wonder the cost is to install a new service panel...$500 per breaker??
Sorry if this is insulting to you pros, but if someone quoted me this I'd take it as an insult and kick him out of my house.
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Veronica,
Here is a price comparison for you:
I'm having recessed lights put in tomorrow. The price I'm paying is $350 for 6 of them. Each additional will be $50 each. This includes the work for new dimmers, pulling cable etc. The only thing not included is the cans so check what those cost and add to my quote and you have a straight comparison.
The person doing my house comes highly recomended from friends. He's done a great job with their houses.
I'm in Silicon Valley California where everything is silly expensive so yours should be cheaper.
Here is a price comparison for you:
I'm having recessed lights put in tomorrow. The price I'm paying is $350 for 6 of them. Each additional will be $50 each. This includes the work for new dimmers, pulling cable etc. The only thing not included is the cans so check what those cost and add to my quote and you have a straight comparison.
The person doing my house comes highly recomended from friends. He's done a great job with their houses.
I'm in Silicon Valley California where everything is silly expensive so yours should be cheaper.
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Originally Posted by Swede_matt
Veronica,
Here is a price comparison for you:
I'm having recessed lights put in tomorrow. The price I'm paying is $350 for 6 of them. Each additional will be $50 each. This includes the work for new dimmers, pulling cable etc. The only thing not included is the cans so check what those cost and add to my quote and you have a straight comparison.
The person doing my house comes highly recomended from friends. He's done a great job with their houses.
I'm in Silicon Valley California where everything is silly expensive so yours should be cheaper.
Here is a price comparison for you:
I'm having recessed lights put in tomorrow. The price I'm paying is $350 for 6 of them. Each additional will be $50 each. This includes the work for new dimmers, pulling cable etc. The only thing not included is the cans so check what those cost and add to my quote and you have a straight comparison.
The person doing my house comes highly recomended from friends. He's done a great job with their houses.
I'm in Silicon Valley California where everything is silly expensive so yours should be cheaper.
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Hi,
Thanks for the valuable info. $350 for 6 of them? that's a very good deal! $350 is labor only correct? I just received another quote and this electrician is charging me by the hour ($30/hour) which is labor only. I will have to supply the cans, trims, bulb, wiring, switches, breakers etc. His estimated time for completion is 16 hours which is $480 to complete the install. I don't have the wiring in place nor the breakers. Does it really take 16 hours to install 5 recessed lights and 4 switches?
Thanks again for the information
VC
Thanks for the valuable info. $350 for 6 of them? that's a very good deal! $350 is labor only correct? I just received another quote and this electrician is charging me by the hour ($30/hour) which is labor only. I will have to supply the cans, trims, bulb, wiring, switches, breakers etc. His estimated time for completion is 16 hours which is $480 to complete the install. I don't have the wiring in place nor the breakers. Does it really take 16 hours to install 5 recessed lights and 4 switches?
Thanks again for the information
VC
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Originally Posted by veronica
Does it really take 16 hours to install 5 recessed lights and 4 switches?
VC
VC
The hourly rate of $30/hr sounds more like it. But 16 hours? So he has to pull a new circuit, cut 5 holes, and install 4 switches. Sounds like a days work to me. But that's not the point.
The point is to make money ! I'd tell him to finish it in a day. See what he says.
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[QUOTE=fuente]No. Not even close.
"The hourly rate of $30/hr sounds more like it."
I have to agree, this has been pretty humorous. I would be scared to death to do business w/ anyone charging that little and on top of it asking the customer to supply the materials that will most likely be the junk from the big box stores. I realize that this is a do it yourselfer forum, so the inclination is to save as much money as you can by actually doing the work yourself. But if you are unable to do it yourself it is best to forget the "cheapest guy attitude" and find the company that will actually perform the work correctly, honestly and be able to make a reasonable profit. Electricity is very dangerous and if not installed properly can lead to severe property or personal damage, so be careful not to cheat youreslf by hiring the cheapest person and using the cheapest material.
FYI, a guy doing 200K in work for the year makes nowhere near 150K in profit.
"The hourly rate of $30/hr sounds more like it."
I have to agree, this has been pretty humorous. I would be scared to death to do business w/ anyone charging that little and on top of it asking the customer to supply the materials that will most likely be the junk from the big box stores. I realize that this is a do it yourselfer forum, so the inclination is to save as much money as you can by actually doing the work yourself. But if you are unable to do it yourself it is best to forget the "cheapest guy attitude" and find the company that will actually perform the work correctly, honestly and be able to make a reasonable profit. Electricity is very dangerous and if not installed properly can lead to severe property or personal damage, so be careful not to cheat youreslf by hiring the cheapest person and using the cheapest material.
FYI, a guy doing 200K in work for the year makes nowhere near 150K in profit.
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[QUOTE=electricpro]
I wasn’t implying that $30 was the going rate, only that for that type of work it sounded reasonable. After all, we’re talking about white to white and black to black here. Very simple. The material from Home Depot is just as good, in this case, as from an electrical supply house. A HALO can from HD works and looks fine. I’ve always found it interesting that the contractors I bid my work out to all said that they knew where to get the best material, and of course it was substantially more expensive then what I could fine. But we all know that some pros take a profit on the material as well to inflate the price.
You’re right about the profit. 200K get’s you probably closer to 85-90K, after taxes and overhead.
I would just have a hard time paying anyone that kind of money to do the work, but I guess you guys have to eat too.
Originally Posted by fuente
No. Not even close.
"The hourly rate of $30/hr sounds more like it."
I have to agree, this has been pretty humorous. I would be scared to death to do business w/ anyone charging that little and on top of it asking the customer to supply the materials that will most likely be the junk from the big box stores. I realize that this is a do it yourselfer forum, so the inclination is to save as much money as you can by actually doing the work yourself. But if you are unable to do it yourself it is best to forget the "cheapest guy attitude" and find the company that will actually perform the work correctly, honestly and be able to make a reasonable profit. Electricity is very dangerous and if not installed properly can lead to severe property or personal damage, so be careful not to cheat youreslf by hiring the cheapest person and using the cheapest material.
FYI, a guy doing 200K in work for the year makes nowhere near 150K in profit.
"The hourly rate of $30/hr sounds more like it."
I have to agree, this has been pretty humorous. I would be scared to death to do business w/ anyone charging that little and on top of it asking the customer to supply the materials that will most likely be the junk from the big box stores. I realize that this is a do it yourselfer forum, so the inclination is to save as much money as you can by actually doing the work yourself. But if you are unable to do it yourself it is best to forget the "cheapest guy attitude" and find the company that will actually perform the work correctly, honestly and be able to make a reasonable profit. Electricity is very dangerous and if not installed properly can lead to severe property or personal damage, so be careful not to cheat youreslf by hiring the cheapest person and using the cheapest material.
FYI, a guy doing 200K in work for the year makes nowhere near 150K in profit.
You’re right about the profit. 200K get’s you probably closer to 85-90K, after taxes and overhead.
I would just have a hard time paying anyone that kind of money to do the work, but I guess you guys have to eat too.
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First of all, If you are going to do the work yourself then do it. Looking for the cheapest price is going to lead you into trouble.
Does anybody really think the guy charging $30/hour is licensed and insured ? I guess he could be if he lives in a tent by the highway and his only reason for living is to install electrical equipment at your house for a great price.
$100 - $125 is about average per recessed light with a quality fixture and trim. It isn't high and it isn't low either.
If one guy quoted you $50 per light for labor then great. Just understand that when you go to Home depot and buy the parts they will cost you approx. $50 per light ( includes can, trim and bulb) also keep in mind now that your supplying parts is that there is no warranty from the contractor.
Factor that in with the time it will take you go and buy them and then decide is it really worth it.
The pro's mark materials up to cover time to pick up materials and above all to warranty them.
Quote: "Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+."
200 K per year is not going to net 150 K in the service/construction field. I guess if you work in an office environment where all of the work comes to you it might.
1 Truck alone uses up $8 - 10K per year just for fuel, and basic maintenance.
Factor in also -
Vehicle insurance
Business liability insurance
Workmans Comp insurance
Health Insurance
License renewal fees
Educational fees ( yes we have to go to school min.16 hours per year to renew license)
Accounting fees
Social security taxes
Medicare taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
unemployment taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
Federal taxes
County/city taxes
State taxes
Rent/lease
Office equipment/supplies/software
Communications
Advertising
uniforms
Tools
Tool maintenance
There is a lot more to list and I don't want to make this post 10 miles long. Just the above listed items is over 100K per year.
Most contractors are lucky if they net 50K from a 200K gross.
So when the guy comes to your house and charges $30 - $50/hour keep this in mind and wonder where he is cutting corners. A Contractor has to charge at least $100/hour just to cover costs.
Or I guess he always just use the old wire he pulled out of that house remodel he did a few months back... I mean the house was only 70 years old, wire is still good
Does anybody really think the guy charging $30/hour is licensed and insured ? I guess he could be if he lives in a tent by the highway and his only reason for living is to install electrical equipment at your house for a great price.
$100 - $125 is about average per recessed light with a quality fixture and trim. It isn't high and it isn't low either.
If one guy quoted you $50 per light for labor then great. Just understand that when you go to Home depot and buy the parts they will cost you approx. $50 per light ( includes can, trim and bulb) also keep in mind now that your supplying parts is that there is no warranty from the contractor.
Factor that in with the time it will take you go and buy them and then decide is it really worth it.
The pro's mark materials up to cover time to pick up materials and above all to warranty them.
Quote: "Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+."
200 K per year is not going to net 150 K in the service/construction field. I guess if you work in an office environment where all of the work comes to you it might.
1 Truck alone uses up $8 - 10K per year just for fuel, and basic maintenance.
Factor in also -
Vehicle insurance
Business liability insurance
Workmans Comp insurance
Health Insurance
License renewal fees
Educational fees ( yes we have to go to school min.16 hours per year to renew license)
Accounting fees
Social security taxes
Medicare taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
unemployment taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
Federal taxes
County/city taxes
State taxes
Rent/lease
Office equipment/supplies/software
Communications
Advertising
uniforms
Tools
Tool maintenance
There is a lot more to list and I don't want to make this post 10 miles long. Just the above listed items is over 100K per year.
Most contractors are lucky if they net 50K from a 200K gross.
So when the guy comes to your house and charges $30 - $50/hour keep this in mind and wonder where he is cutting corners. A Contractor has to charge at least $100/hour just to cover costs.
Or I guess he always just use the old wire he pulled out of that house remodel he did a few months back... I mean the house was only 70 years old, wire is still good
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Originally Posted by rich3236
First of all, If you are going to do the work yourself then do it. Looking for the cheapest price is going to lead you into trouble.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Does anybody really think the guy charging $30/hour is licensed and insured ? I guess he could be if he lives in a tent by the highway and his only reason for living is to install electrical equipment at your house for a great price.
Originally Posted by rich3236
$100 - $125 is about average per recessed light with a quality fixture and trim. It isn't high and it isn't low either.
Originally Posted by rich3236
If one guy quoted you $50 per light for labor then great. Just understand that when you go to Home depot and buy the parts they will cost you approx. $50 per light ( includes can, trim and bulb) also keep in mind now that your supplying parts is that there is no warranty from the contractor.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Factor that in with the time it will take you go and buy them and then decide is it really worth it.
Originally Posted by rich3236
The pro's mark materials up to cover time to pick up materials and above all to warranty them.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Quote: "Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+."
200 K per year is not going to net 150 K in the service/construction field. I guess if you work in an office environment where all of the work comes to you it might.
1 Truck alone uses up $8 - 10K per year just for fuel, and basic maintenance.
Factor in also -
Vehicle insurance
Business liability insurance
Workmans Comp insurance
Health Insurance
License renewal fees
Educational fees ( yes we have to go to school min.16 hours per year to renew license)
Accounting fees
Social security taxes
Medicare taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
unemployment taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
Federal taxes
County/city taxes
State taxes
Rent/lease
Office equipment/supplies/software
Communications
Advertising
uniforms
Tools
Tool maintenance
There is a lot more to list and I don't want to make this post 10 miles long. Just the above listed items is over 100K per year.
Most contractors are lucky if they net 50K from a 200K gross.
200 K per year is not going to net 150 K in the service/construction field. I guess if you work in an office environment where all of the work comes to you it might.
1 Truck alone uses up $8 - 10K per year just for fuel, and basic maintenance.
Factor in also -
Vehicle insurance
Business liability insurance
Workmans Comp insurance
Health Insurance
License renewal fees
Educational fees ( yes we have to go to school min.16 hours per year to renew license)
Accounting fees
Social security taxes
Medicare taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
unemployment taxes (employer matches what comes out of your check)
Federal taxes
County/city taxes
State taxes
Rent/lease
Office equipment/supplies/software
Communications
Advertising
uniforms
Tools
Tool maintenance
There is a lot more to list and I don't want to make this post 10 miles long. Just the above listed items is over 100K per year.
Most contractors are lucky if they net 50K from a 200K gross.
Originally Posted by rich3236
So when the guy comes to your house and charges $30 - $50/hour keep this in mind and wonder where he is cutting corners. A Contractor has to charge at least $100/hour just to cover costs.
In the Bay Area, there is a real opportunity to take advantage of homeowners who don't know the difference. Prices change, dramitically, depending on WHERE YOU LIVE in the bay area. I did a little calling around and a difference of 30 miles from good areas to bad there were differences of 50-75%. Crazy.
What I found is that when I asked these questions to the contractors I had bid the job to, they had no real answers. I'm curious to hear what/how the pros can explain it.
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Yes the warranty covers labor and material, meaning if I supplied you a recessed light and the socket, thermal sensor etc.. went bad, I would replace it for free.
If you supplied it I would charge you to remove the light and to reinstall it plus the cost of light unless you supplied another one. Yes you can return it yourself but I'm not going to come to your house and remove the light that you supplied and reinstall it for free.
There is a homedepot in every city like you said and if it is worth your time to go there and buy the parts to save $5- $10 per light and then be responsible for any problems with them then that is your option.
Do you think when you buy an appliance that the warranty is not included in the price ? I guess you don't question that when it is not a guy in a work truck giving you a price on something.
The average home owner don't even know what type to get and usually gets a non IC type or a new work type light when they need the opposite, if a home owner knows what to get then it may be worth it for them as long as a light doesn't go bad. Then again is the reason my first sentence of previous post " If your going to do it yourself then do it" don't try to beat down my price because you think it is too high when you are comparing it to what it would cost you to do it.
The problem today is homeowners think because they can walk into homedepot and get advice from the guy that works there who was a helper for 6 months 10 years ago that somehow contractors are ripping them off and want do it yourself prices even though they are not doing the work.
Just because you know what parts to get or how to do the job doesn't mean I should lower my price to do your work... it becomes not worth it to do a job that doesn't cover my cost.
Try going to an auto mechanic and telling them you want to supply your own parts and see what they say. Yet know one questions them when they charge $400 to change a $50 water pump.
The impression I have is that you don't want to do it yourself but want the contractor to lower his prices to your do it yourself prices. And yes I know there are plenty out there that will do it and are usually out of business within 2 years or using that good old 70 year old wire in your attic where you can't see it.
Just curious, did the contractors that did your work for $50/hour pull permits? did you actually see they're license ?
How do you know how good of a job they did ? because you see a bunch of recessed lights in a straight line ? Are you a qualified electrician that even has the first clue of what is hazzardous and what isn't ? or did you watch this old house and now you can wire anything... I mean it's just black to black and white to white right, who needs that fancy 2000 page code book.
I have nothing against do it yourselfer's , the reason I come here is to help someone who is stuck on something. But when I see a thread like this it P's me off.
Ask your local home depot what they charge to install recessed lights, they do it that now. I'll guarantee you it is well over $100/hour
If you supplied it I would charge you to remove the light and to reinstall it plus the cost of light unless you supplied another one. Yes you can return it yourself but I'm not going to come to your house and remove the light that you supplied and reinstall it for free.
There is a homedepot in every city like you said and if it is worth your time to go there and buy the parts to save $5- $10 per light and then be responsible for any problems with them then that is your option.
Do you think when you buy an appliance that the warranty is not included in the price ? I guess you don't question that when it is not a guy in a work truck giving you a price on something.
The average home owner don't even know what type to get and usually gets a non IC type or a new work type light when they need the opposite, if a home owner knows what to get then it may be worth it for them as long as a light doesn't go bad. Then again is the reason my first sentence of previous post " If your going to do it yourself then do it" don't try to beat down my price because you think it is too high when you are comparing it to what it would cost you to do it.
The problem today is homeowners think because they can walk into homedepot and get advice from the guy that works there who was a helper for 6 months 10 years ago that somehow contractors are ripping them off and want do it yourself prices even though they are not doing the work.
Just because you know what parts to get or how to do the job doesn't mean I should lower my price to do your work... it becomes not worth it to do a job that doesn't cover my cost.
Try going to an auto mechanic and telling them you want to supply your own parts and see what they say. Yet know one questions them when they charge $400 to change a $50 water pump.
The impression I have is that you don't want to do it yourself but want the contractor to lower his prices to your do it yourself prices. And yes I know there are plenty out there that will do it and are usually out of business within 2 years or using that good old 70 year old wire in your attic where you can't see it.
Just curious, did the contractors that did your work for $50/hour pull permits? did you actually see they're license ?
How do you know how good of a job they did ? because you see a bunch of recessed lights in a straight line ? Are you a qualified electrician that even has the first clue of what is hazzardous and what isn't ? or did you watch this old house and now you can wire anything... I mean it's just black to black and white to white right, who needs that fancy 2000 page code book.
I have nothing against do it yourselfer's , the reason I come here is to help someone who is stuck on something. But when I see a thread like this it P's me off.
Ask your local home depot what they charge to install recessed lights, they do it that now. I'll guarantee you it is well over $100/hour
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Originally Posted by rich3236
Yes the warranty covers labor and material, meaning if I supplied you a recessed light and the socket, thermal sensor etc.. went bad, I would replace it for free.
If you supplied it I would charge you to remove the light and to reinstall it plus the cost of light unless you supplied another one. Yes you can return it yourself but I'm not going to come to your house and remove the light that you supplied and reinstall it for free.
If you supplied it I would charge you to remove the light and to reinstall it plus the cost of light unless you supplied another one. Yes you can return it yourself but I'm not going to come to your house and remove the light that you supplied and reinstall it for free.
Originally Posted by rich3236
There is a homedepot in every city like you said and if it is worth your time to go there and buy the parts to save $5- $10 per light and then be responsible for any problems with them then that is your option.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Do you think when you buy an appliance that the warranty is not included in the price ? I guess you don't question that when it is not a guy in a work truck giving you a price on something.
Originally Posted by rich3236
The average home owner don't even know what type to get and usually gets a non IC type or a new work type light when they need the opposite, if a home owner knows what to get then it may be worth it for them as long as a light doesn't go bad. Then again is the reason my first sentence of previous post " If your going to do it yourself then do it" don't try to beat down my price because you think it is too high when you are comparing it to what it would cost you to do it.
Originally Posted by rich3236
The problem today is homeowners think because they can walk into homedepot and get advice from the guy that works there who was a helper for 6 months 10 years ago that somehow contractors are ripping them off and want do it yourself prices even though they are not doing the work.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Just because you know what parts to get or how to do the job doesn't mean I should lower my price to do your work... it becomes not worth it to do a job that doesn't cover my cost.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Try going to an auto mechanic and telling them you want to supply your own parts and see what they say. Yet know one questions them when they charge $400 to change a $50 water pump.
Originally Posted by rich3236
The impression I have is that you don't want to do it yourself but want the contractor to lower his prices to your do it yourself prices. And yes I know there are plenty out there that will do it and are usually out of business within 2 years or using that good old 70 year old wire in your attic where you can't see it.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Just curious, did the contractors that did your work for $50/hour pull permits? did you actually see they're license ?
Originally Posted by rich3236
How do you know how good of a job they did ? because you see a bunch of recessed lights in a straight line ? Are you a qualified electrician that even has the first clue of what is hazzardous and what isn't ? or did you watch this old house and now you can wire anything... I mean it's just black to black and white to white right, who needs that fancy 2000 page code book.
Originally Posted by rich3236
I have nothing against do it yourselfer's , the reason I come here is to help someone who is stuck on something. But when I see a thread like this it P's me off.
Originally Posted by rich3236
Ask your local home depot what they charge to install recessed lights, they do it that now. I'll guarantee you it is well over $100/hour
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I actually did the work myself. The quotes were just to see how much I was saving and to try and get some questions answered. I never intended to use the contractors. WAY too much $$$, and part of the enjoyment was to learn the right way to do things.
Have you ever thought this is one of the reasons prices are so high? So you called these people out to your home and never intended to use them? You are without a doubt a real class act.
Have you ever thought this is one of the reasons prices are so high? So you called these people out to your home and never intended to use them? You are without a doubt a real class act.
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Originally Posted by LoneGunman
I actually did the work myself. The quotes were just to see how much I was saving and to try and get some questions answered. I never intended to use the contractors. WAY too much $$$, and part of the enjoyment was to learn the right way to do things.
Have you ever thought this is one of the reasons prices are so high? So you called these people out to your home and never intended to use them? You are without a doubt a real class act.
Have you ever thought this is one of the reasons prices are so high? So you called these people out to your home and never intended to use them? You are without a doubt a real class act.
These were just general quotes and nothing more. Probably took less then 30 seconds per call. Very basic.
I would never waste someone's time to come out and bid the job in person if I knew I was going to do the work myself.
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Has anyone on this post ever taken a Business Class?
I am all for doing your own work to save money, but don't do it on the back of a licensed electrician or any other contractor.
Fuente, I need to call you out on several accounts:
1) You mean to tell me, you have never, ever, ever had a contractor come out an give you an estimate and tried to pick his brain?
Do you realize that those 'FREE' estimates that most guys give cost us in excess of $50 (that's cost not sale price - no markup, no profit, just cost)
Give 10 "FREE" estimates a week and you are in the hole for $500 REAL dollars. That money needs to be covered somewhere.
2) Do you have any clue what an add in the phone book costs?
This money has to come from somewhere.
3) It is blantantly obvious from your posts in this one thread that you are truly just knowledable enough to be dangerous.
4) My technicians cost me more than $30 in salary alone. That works out to $1200+/- a week for their paycheck. On top of that I need to cover their benefits (Medical, Vacation, 401K, etc)
At $1200/week they earn a whopping $60,000 a year to crawl in hot attics and crawl space. Does this sound like a rip off.
5) Do you realize that tax deductable means you still need to spend the money on the items - you just don't have to pay taxes on those earnings? It's obvious you don't. I love when people say 'it's tax deductable'
In the case of fuel - it's now $2.40/gallon. Most work vans get 10 miles or less per gallon. It's very easy to spend $10,000 a year on fuel. Do you know how much we save because 'it's Tax Deducatable?" About $1000-$1500 in taxes on our revenue. But we still have to pay the $10,000 in REAL money from what we earn.
6) I defy you to show me any self employeed contractor who charges $50/hr and generates $200,000 a year. After doing paperwork (to get our Tax Deductions), he'd be lucky to bill out 1400-1500 hours @ $50 for a total of $70-$75,000.
Add in 20% of his material cost and you get maybe another $15-20,000.
Plus he will most likely put in another 1000-1500 hours doing paperwork, sitting through continuing education courses, filing permits, going on FREE estimates, and the like.
So for his total investment of 2400 to 3000 hours per year, he will gross a grand total of $85 - $95,000 BEFORE Taxes.
His wife is probably working just to provide Health Benefits for them, he can't at that price. Did you know that a family of 4 costs about $1000/month just for medical insurance?
OK, so he subtracts all the "TAX DEDUCTABLE" items like phones, advertising, etc. and is probably left with a salary of about $40,000. Now this he pays taxes on. Government takes their share (what would you say, about $6-7,000?)
So this contractor, that gave you a great price.....
(oh, I'm sorry, even his price wasn't good enough for you, you just wanted to waste his time - most of these guys probably called you back in the evening, right? After working all day, they have to waste time calling back people like yourself instead of spending time with their families)....
He lives on about $35,000/yr. or to put it in another context about $14 an hour. He'd be better off driving a truck for UPS, it pays more.
Fuente, I only wish that you would actually learn something about this, but I don't have such illusions.
Erik Mahler
Licensed Electrical Contractor
State of New Jersey
Fuente, I need to call you out on several accounts:
1) You mean to tell me, you have never, ever, ever had a contractor come out an give you an estimate and tried to pick his brain?
Do you realize that those 'FREE' estimates that most guys give cost us in excess of $50 (that's cost not sale price - no markup, no profit, just cost)
Give 10 "FREE" estimates a week and you are in the hole for $500 REAL dollars. That money needs to be covered somewhere.
2) Do you have any clue what an add in the phone book costs?
This money has to come from somewhere.
3) It is blantantly obvious from your posts in this one thread that you are truly just knowledable enough to be dangerous.
4) My technicians cost me more than $30 in salary alone. That works out to $1200+/- a week for their paycheck. On top of that I need to cover their benefits (Medical, Vacation, 401K, etc)
At $1200/week they earn a whopping $60,000 a year to crawl in hot attics and crawl space. Does this sound like a rip off.
5) Do you realize that tax deductable means you still need to spend the money on the items - you just don't have to pay taxes on those earnings? It's obvious you don't. I love when people say 'it's tax deductable'
In the case of fuel - it's now $2.40/gallon. Most work vans get 10 miles or less per gallon. It's very easy to spend $10,000 a year on fuel. Do you know how much we save because 'it's Tax Deducatable?" About $1000-$1500 in taxes on our revenue. But we still have to pay the $10,000 in REAL money from what we earn.
6) I defy you to show me any self employeed contractor who charges $50/hr and generates $200,000 a year. After doing paperwork (to get our Tax Deductions), he'd be lucky to bill out 1400-1500 hours @ $50 for a total of $70-$75,000.
Add in 20% of his material cost and you get maybe another $15-20,000.
Plus he will most likely put in another 1000-1500 hours doing paperwork, sitting through continuing education courses, filing permits, going on FREE estimates, and the like.
So for his total investment of 2400 to 3000 hours per year, he will gross a grand total of $85 - $95,000 BEFORE Taxes.
His wife is probably working just to provide Health Benefits for them, he can't at that price. Did you know that a family of 4 costs about $1000/month just for medical insurance?
OK, so he subtracts all the "TAX DEDUCTABLE" items like phones, advertising, etc. and is probably left with a salary of about $40,000. Now this he pays taxes on. Government takes their share (what would you say, about $6-7,000?)
So this contractor, that gave you a great price.....
(oh, I'm sorry, even his price wasn't good enough for you, you just wanted to waste his time - most of these guys probably called you back in the evening, right? After working all day, they have to waste time calling back people like yourself instead of spending time with their families)....
He lives on about $35,000/yr. or to put it in another context about $14 an hour. He'd be better off driving a truck for UPS, it pays more.
Fuente, I only wish that you would actually learn something about this, but I don't have such illusions.
Erik Mahler
Licensed Electrical Contractor
State of New Jersey
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Originally Posted by mahlere
I am all for doing your own work to save money, but don't do it on the back of a licensed electrician or any other contractor.
Fuente, I need to call you out on several accounts:
Fuente, I need to call you out on several accounts:
Originally Posted by mahlere
1) You mean to tell me, you have never, ever, ever had a contractor come out an give you an estimate and tried to pick his brain?
Originally Posted by mahlere
Do you realize that those 'FREE' estimates that most guys give cost us in excess of $50 (that's cost not sale price - no markup, no profit, just cost)
Originally Posted by mahlere
Give 10 "FREE" estimates a week and you are in the hole for $500 REAL dollars. That money needs to be covered somewhere.
2)
Originally Posted by mahlere
Do you have any clue what an add in the phone book costs?
3)
Originally Posted by mahlere
It is blantantly obvious from your posts in this one thread that you are truly just knowledable enough to be dangerous.
4)
Originally Posted by mahlere
My technicians cost me more than $30 in salary alone. That works out to $1200+/- a week for their paycheck. On top of that I need to cover their benefits (Medical, Vacation, 401K, etc)
Originally Posted by mahlere
At $1200/week they earn a whopping $60,000 a year to crawl in hot attics and crawl space. Does this sound like a rip off.
5)
Originally Posted by mahlere
Do you realize that tax deductable means you still need to spend the money on the items - you just don't have to pay taxes on those earnings? It's obvious you don't. I love when people say 'it's tax deductable'
Originally Posted by mahlere
In the case of fuel - it's now $2.40/gallon. Most work vans get 10 miles or less per gallon. It's very easy to spend $10,000 a year on fuel. Do you know how much we save because 'it's Tax Deducatable?" About $1000-$1500 in taxes on our revenue. But we still have to pay the $10,000 in REAL money from what we earn.
6)
Originally Posted by mahlere
I defy you to show me any self employeed contractor who charges $50/hr and generates $200,000 a year. After doing paperwork (to get our Tax Deductions), he'd be lucky to bill out 1400-1500 hours @ $50 for a total of $70-$75,000.
Originally Posted by mahlere
Add in 20% of his material cost and you get maybe another $15-20,000.
Originally Posted by mahlere
Plus he will most likely put in another 1000-1500 hours doing paperwork, sitting through continuing education courses, filing permits, going on FREE estimates, and the like.
Originally Posted by mahlere
So for his total investment of 2400 to 3000 hours per year, he will gross a grand total of $85 - $95,000 BEFORE Taxes.
Originally Posted by mahlere
His wife is probably working just to provide Health Benefits for them, he can't at that price. Did you know that a family of 4 costs about $1000/month just for medical insurance?
Originally Posted by mahlere
OK, so he subtracts all the "TAX DEDUCTABLE" items like phones, advertising, etc. and is probably left with a salary of about $40,000. Now this he pays taxes on. Government takes their share (what would you say, about $6-7,000?)
So this contractor, that gave you a great price.....
Originally Posted by mahlere
(oh, I'm sorry, even his price wasn't good enough for you, you just wanted to waste his time - most of these guys probably called you back in the evening, right? After working all day, they have to waste time calling back people like yourself instead of spending time with their families)....
Originally Posted by mahlere
He lives on about $35,000/yr. or to put it in another context about $14 an hour. He'd be better off driving a truck for UPS, it pays more.
Originally Posted by mahlere
Fuente, I only wish that you would actually learn something about this, but I don't have such illusions.
Last edited by fuente; 04-14-06 at 10:11 AM.
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Let's do this one more time. I seem to have a knack for talking to walls. Here we go
it's reall money out of my pocket. it becomes overhead when we don't directly charge for it. So it increases the cost we must charge to a paying customer.
In otherwords, free estimates reward price shoppers and punish purchasers. Pretty backwards, huh?
How is wanting to provide a good life for my family and employees greedy? How is providing a living wage, health benefits, the proper tools, paid holidays, paid vacation, etc, greedy?
Who sets the 'going rate'? How is it determined? What about real costs and real expenses?
As for profit, we are around 10% NET, the average electrical contractor is 2-3%. How is that Greedy?
Obviously you don't understand the tax system. We don't recoup any of the costs by deducting them. We simply don't have to pay more taxes to government on top of them.
If I spend $100 dollars on material, it's a deductable expense. However, I still pay $100 for the material. $6 in sales tax. And whatever my cost is to acquire the material. I bill the customer $130 for that material.
I still pay that $106 in real dollars, I just only have to pay taxes on the $24 that I made. I don't recoup anything.
However, I still pay a fortune in payroll taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes, gas taxes, misc fees (truck registrations, etc)
So tax deductable just means I don't get screwed by the government any more than we already are.
Isn’t this cost passed on to the customer thru either T&M or the hourly rate?
not if you want to charge the going rate. If I paid $100 (including tax) for material and wanted to make a 20% profit (mind you, this is gross profit on the sale of that material only) on the sale of that, do you know how to calculate the sale price that I have to charge you? My guess is your answer is $120. But, sadly you would be wrong and I would lose money.
it is alot of paperwork. Any idea what goes into running a legal, legitimate business these days?
most guys that try to bill at going rate, don't bill for these. How would you react if I billed you $30/hr to do a job. The job itself took me 2 hrs, but it took me 1 hr to look at the job (including travel), took me another 1 hour to look up a few sections in the code (to make sure I did the job right) Took me another 1 hour to get prices from my suppliers and come up with a quote. Took me another 1 hour to file the permits.
Are you with me so far. I have invested a total of 6 hours on you job. What would you expect me to bill you? $180 or $60? I mean, I was only there for 2 hrs! How could I bill you $90/hr?! I must be a thief. Greedy, that's what I am.
for example today one of our technicians worked a total of 10 hrs. He had 2 estimates that took a total of 3 hrs out of his day, with travel. (BTW, we don't charge for estimates directly, they are part of our overhead)
He had another 1.5 hours of travel between paying jobs. The rest were billable hours. I need to bill those hours at a rate high enough to cover the 4.5 unproductive, unbillable hours that he had. This time becomes overhead and is tacked on the hourly rate.
Yes I am aware of the struggles in this country around health insurance
Why would he pay full tax on his salary? The deductions should provide some relief.
his salary is what's left after his deductions. He pays full tax on his salary because the IRS says so and he doesn't want to go to jail. How's that for simple.
tell that to your boss and see what he/she says
so you think that putting everything you have on the line every day (cause that's what you do when you run your own business) is worth $14 an hour?
What planet are your from? After years of training and education to become a licensed electrical contractor, you should be happy making $14 an hour and having your wife work to cover benefits?
What does a house in your area cost? 2 BR, 2 Bath, 2500 sq ft, regular lot? Probably about $350-$400k. What's the mortgage on that? Probably about $3500/month. How is the contractor only making $35k a yr supposed to afford a house for his family?
My guess, the contractors around you making more than $35k a yr are charging more than the 'going rate'. Or they have enough employees in the field to make up for the low prices.
To anyone reading this thread, looking for help. Please realize that most contractors out there are just like you. Hard working and trying to do the right thing. Please do not confuse their hourly rate with their hourly pay. Please understand that the costs and burden placed on contractors outside forces (government, manufacturers, vehicle companies, advertising companies, etc) truly add up to a lot of money.
Please understand that every second we are 'open' during the day costs us money in real dollars. We need to earn that money somewhere. So the next time you want to get 3-4 estimates for a $500 project that you think should cost $300, think of this:
everytime we give a free estimate and don't get the job, the costs get passed on.
Maybe if we charged for every estimate, we could keep our costs down? What do you, as consumers, think?
Originally Posted by fuente
I would say it’s overhead and not money in your pocket. And it’s the cost of doing business. You’d never get any clients if you charged for your estimates. The better way to look at it is that you are not making profit on that hour of work.
as does all your overhead.
as does all your overhead.
2) No I don’t. But I’m sure you’re passing that cost on to the customer.
3) Not sure how you have come to that conclusion, that’s your opinion.
4) ok
What you are paying your workers and what you are charging the customer are two different things. The question would be how much profit are you taking on each dollar you spend, and if you are truly spending your money correctly. Maybe you are. But it you’re way over the going rate for service, you’re either overspending somewhere else or just plain greedy. BTW there are a lot worse jobs that pay less than 60K year. I’ve had some of them in the past.
4) ok
What you are paying your workers and what you are charging the customer are two different things. The question would be how much profit are you taking on each dollar you spend, and if you are truly spending your money correctly. Maybe you are. But it you’re way over the going rate for service, you’re either overspending somewhere else or just plain greedy. BTW there are a lot worse jobs that pay less than 60K year. I’ve had some of them in the past.
Who sets the 'going rate'? How is it determined? What about real costs and real expenses?
As for profit, we are around 10% NET, the average electrical contractor is 2-3%. How is that Greedy?
5) I realize how the tax system works, yes. My point was that you can recoup some of those expenditures by deducting them.
If I spend $100 dollars on material, it's a deductable expense. However, I still pay $100 for the material. $6 in sales tax. And whatever my cost is to acquire the material. I bill the customer $130 for that material.
I still pay that $106 in real dollars, I just only have to pay taxes on the $24 that I made. I don't recoup anything.
However, I still pay a fortune in payroll taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes, gas taxes, misc fees (truck registrations, etc)
So tax deductable just means I don't get screwed by the government any more than we already are.
Isn’t this cost passed on to the customer thru either T&M or the hourly rate?
I’m sure you bill for the paper work and filing of the permits. And an extra 1000 hours? That’s roughly 6 months. That’s a lot of paperwork….
most guys that try to bill at going rate, don't bill for these. How would you react if I billed you $30/hr to do a job. The job itself took me 2 hrs, but it took me 1 hr to look at the job (including travel), took me another 1 hour to look up a few sections in the code (to make sure I did the job right) Took me another 1 hour to get prices from my suppliers and come up with a quote. Took me another 1 hour to file the permits.
Are you with me so far. I have invested a total of 6 hours on you job. What would you expect me to bill you? $180 or $60? I mean, I was only there for 2 hrs! How could I bill you $90/hr?! I must be a thief. Greedy, that's what I am.
for example today one of our technicians worked a total of 10 hrs. He had 2 estimates that took a total of 3 hrs out of his day, with travel. (BTW, we don't charge for estimates directly, they are part of our overhead)
He had another 1.5 hours of travel between paying jobs. The rest were billable hours. I need to bill those hours at a rate high enough to cover the 4.5 unproductive, unbillable hours that he had. This time becomes overhead and is tacked on the hourly rate.
Yes I am aware of the struggles in this country around health insurance
Why would he pay full tax on his salary? The deductions should provide some relief.
You’re missing the point. I never asked for anyone to come out, or to call me back. These were general questions. That’s my right as a consumer…to ask questions. Not everything is a waste of time if it isn’t generating you income.
You're taking after tax. That's not all that bad. And the $14 is after tax also. Still not bad. IF you're talking about pre-tax, well, I doubt that. If that’s the case you’re either 1) charging too much and not getting repeat business or referrals, or 2) spending too much on overhead. The contractors around here make a lot more than 35K a year.
What planet are your from? After years of training and education to become a licensed electrical contractor, you should be happy making $14 an hour and having your wife work to cover benefits?
What does a house in your area cost? 2 BR, 2 Bath, 2500 sq ft, regular lot? Probably about $350-$400k. What's the mortgage on that? Probably about $3500/month. How is the contractor only making $35k a yr supposed to afford a house for his family?
My guess, the contractors around you making more than $35k a yr are charging more than the 'going rate'. Or they have enough employees in the field to make up for the low prices.
Just like with every thread, I”ve learned something for sure.
Please understand that every second we are 'open' during the day costs us money in real dollars. We need to earn that money somewhere. So the next time you want to get 3-4 estimates for a $500 project that you think should cost $300, think of this:
everytime we give a free estimate and don't get the job, the costs get passed on.
Maybe if we charged for every estimate, we could keep our costs down? What do you, as consumers, think?
Last edited by mahlere; 04-14-06 at 03:39 PM.
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Wow, looks like I hit a nerve. I guess that's what asking honest questions will do.
Some of what you are saying I agree with. Some I do not.
Oh, and I found this site very interesting:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/forum/default.asp
especially this post:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...?TOPIC_ID=3399
Here's one where you say you charged a customer $400 for 2 hours of work:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...21&whichpage=1
Here's another one laying out the 'tricks of the trade', and how one guys ripped an old lady off for $2400 for 2 hours of work:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...?TOPIC_ID=1295
I skimmed thru some your other posts there and, well, I've learned a lot.
I think anybody looking to hire a contractor should read some of the threads in that forum before doing anything.
Good luck with your business.
Some of what you are saying I agree with. Some I do not.
Oh, and I found this site very interesting:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/forum/default.asp
especially this post:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...?TOPIC_ID=3399
Here's one where you say you charged a customer $400 for 2 hours of work:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...21&whichpage=1
Here's another one laying out the 'tricks of the trade', and how one guys ripped an old lady off for $2400 for 2 hours of work:
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/f...?TOPIC_ID=1295
I skimmed thru some your other posts there and, well, I've learned a lot.
I think anybody looking to hire a contractor should read some of the threads in that forum before doing anything.
Good luck with your business.
Last edited by fuente; 04-14-06 at 05:56 PM.
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Where's the beef, Fuente?
Fuente,
Inspite of your dramatic posting of the links to that website, I read those posts carefully and I didn't find the scurilous revelations you would lead us to believe. I think you've run out of arguments and are now trying to slander someone who was only trying to help.
Inspite of your dramatic posting of the links to that website, I read those posts carefully and I didn't find the scurilous revelations you would lead us to believe. I think you've run out of arguments and are now trying to slander someone who was only trying to help.
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Originally Posted by Cheetah_Boxes
Fuente,
Inspite of your dramatic posting of the links to that website, I read those posts carefully and I didn't find the scurilous revelations you would lead us to believe. I think you've run out of arguments and are now trying to slander someone who was only trying to help.
Inspite of your dramatic posting of the links to that website, I read those posts carefully and I didn't find the scurilous revelations you would lead us to believe. I think you've run out of arguments and are now trying to slander someone who was only trying to help.
I don't know everything about your business, that's true, but potential customers should be aware of just how you get to your price, regardless of what it is.
I see the bashing has begun on me on that one thread, and that's fine. The point was to try and determine exactly how contractors get to their prices. I think we've determined some of the ways, and those links provide some other ways as well.
It was a good discussion I believe.
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Pricing services
While your trying to determine how contractors arrive at their prices, keep in mind that 75% of contractors don't really have a clue themselves how to price their work. They try to determine what the "going rate" is but learn to late that the "going rate" is the "going out of business rate".
Fuente, you seem like a good sport, have a great weekend!
Whoop! Whoop!
Fuente, you seem like a good sport, have a great weekend!
Whoop! Whoop!
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Originally Posted by Cheetah_Boxes
While your trying to determine how contractors arrive at their prices, keep in mind that 75% of contractors don't really have a clue themselves how to price their work. They try to determine what the "going rate" is but learn to late that the "going rate" is the "going out of business rate".
Fuente, you seem like a good sport, have a great weekend!
Whoop! Whoop!
Fuente, you seem like a good sport, have a great weekend!
Whoop! Whoop!
Have a good one yourself.
#28
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i welcome anyone looking to hire a contractor to read the postings on that site. But read all of them. Read how customers beat contractors for money. Read how guys struggle to find qualified competent help while trying to charge the 'going rate'
To be clear, there are guys at all levels of the spectrum that rip customers off. I can charge you $500/hr and be a better deal than some guy charging $20/hr. There are also companies that do prey upon unsuspecting customers. They are pariahs within our industry.
That being said-
Read how guys waste time spinning their wheels giving estimates to customers that have no intention of having the work done. Or think service calls should be free.
Read how contractors struggle every day to learn how to operate a business more efficiently, effectively and *GASP* profitably.
Read how some of us have learned a way to deal with customers like yourself who want us to give you our knowledge for free.
Read how many contractors who work for General Contractors lose money by the time the job is done.
Read how, in an effort to be greedy and pay our employees well, and still have a good life for our families, we have actually charge customers money.
On our residential side, we charge approx. $200/ BILLABLE Hour. We typically get 4 billable hours per 8 hr day. So on average we make $800/day/truck.
After we pay our employees, other overhead and the $2500/month for one yellow page ad, (we have 4- some guys have 20)there is not a whole lot left.
Read about how some of us show up when we say we will. Some of us show up in less than 60 min when you have an emergency. Some of us show up in the evenings or weekends to work around the customers schedule. Some of show up in the 30 min window that a customer gives us for an appointment.
Read about how many of us spend years working in the industry in order to get our licenses. Then we go to continuing education in order to keep them.
Read about the insurance that most of us carry (for the record, we carry $2,000,000 in general liability insurance.
Read about how we spend a good portion of our professional career fixing dangerous DIY and handyman wiring.
Remember, every contractor you call is a consumer to someone else. Not every consumer is a business owner. We understand what it's like to buy something. Do you understand what it's like to sell yourself and your services? (Not someone elses, but you and you alone)
So do read the site, but read it all. Don't cherry pick items out of context and attempt to prove an invalid point of opinion.
To be clear, there are guys at all levels of the spectrum that rip customers off. I can charge you $500/hr and be a better deal than some guy charging $20/hr. There are also companies that do prey upon unsuspecting customers. They are pariahs within our industry.
That being said-
Read how guys waste time spinning their wheels giving estimates to customers that have no intention of having the work done. Or think service calls should be free.
Read how contractors struggle every day to learn how to operate a business more efficiently, effectively and *GASP* profitably.
Read how some of us have learned a way to deal with customers like yourself who want us to give you our knowledge for free.
Read how many contractors who work for General Contractors lose money by the time the job is done.
Read how, in an effort to be greedy and pay our employees well, and still have a good life for our families, we have actually charge customers money.
On our residential side, we charge approx. $200/ BILLABLE Hour. We typically get 4 billable hours per 8 hr day. So on average we make $800/day/truck.
After we pay our employees, other overhead and the $2500/month for one yellow page ad, (we have 4- some guys have 20)there is not a whole lot left.
Read about how some of us show up when we say we will. Some of us show up in less than 60 min when you have an emergency. Some of us show up in the evenings or weekends to work around the customers schedule. Some of show up in the 30 min window that a customer gives us for an appointment.
Read about how many of us spend years working in the industry in order to get our licenses. Then we go to continuing education in order to keep them.
Read about the insurance that most of us carry (for the record, we carry $2,000,000 in general liability insurance.
Read about how we spend a good portion of our professional career fixing dangerous DIY and handyman wiring.
Remember, every contractor you call is a consumer to someone else. Not every consumer is a business owner. We understand what it's like to buy something. Do you understand what it's like to sell yourself and your services? (Not someone elses, but you and you alone)
So do read the site, but read it all. Don't cherry pick items out of context and attempt to prove an invalid point of opinion.
#29
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Originally Posted by mahlere
i welcome anyone looking to hire a contractor to read the postings on that site. But read all of them. Read how customers beat contractors for money. Read how guys struggle to find qualified competent help while trying to charge the 'going rate'
To be clear, there are guys at all levels of the spectrum that rip customers off. I can charge you $500/hr and be a better deal than some guy charging $20/hr. There are also companies that do prey upon unsuspecting customers. They are pariahs within our industry.
That being said-
Read how guys waste time spinning their wheels giving estimates to customers that have no intention of having the work done. Or think service calls should be free.
Read how contractors struggle every day to learn how to operate a business more efficiently, effectively and *GASP* profitably.
Read how some of us have learned a way to deal with customers like yourself who want us to give you our knowledge for free.
Read how many contractors who work for General Contractors lose money by the time the job is done.
Read how, in an effort to be greedy and pay our employees well, and still have a good life for our families, we have actually charge customers money.
On our residential side, we charge approx. $200/ BILLABLE Hour. We typically get 4 billable hours per 8 hr day. So on average we make $800/day/truck.
After we pay our employees, other overhead and the $2500/month for one yellow page ad, (we have 4- some guys have 20)there is not a whole lot left.
Read about how some of us show up when we say we will. Some of us show up in less than 60 min when you have an emergency. Some of us show up in the evenings or weekends to work around the customers schedule. Some of show up in the 30 min window that a customer gives us for an appointment.
Read about how many of us spend years working in the industry in order to get our licenses. Then we go to continuing education in order to keep them.
Read about the insurance that most of us carry (for the record, we carry $2,000,000 in general liability insurance.
Read about how we spend a good portion of our professional career fixing dangerous DIY and handyman wiring.
Remember, every contractor you call is a consumer to someone else. Not every consumer is a business owner. We understand what it's like to buy something. Do you understand what it's like to sell yourself and your services? (Not someone elses, but you and you alone)
So do read the site, but read it all. Don't cherry pick items out of context and attempt to prove an invalid point of opinion.
To be clear, there are guys at all levels of the spectrum that rip customers off. I can charge you $500/hr and be a better deal than some guy charging $20/hr. There are also companies that do prey upon unsuspecting customers. They are pariahs within our industry.
That being said-
Read how guys waste time spinning their wheels giving estimates to customers that have no intention of having the work done. Or think service calls should be free.
Read how contractors struggle every day to learn how to operate a business more efficiently, effectively and *GASP* profitably.
Read how some of us have learned a way to deal with customers like yourself who want us to give you our knowledge for free.
Read how many contractors who work for General Contractors lose money by the time the job is done.
Read how, in an effort to be greedy and pay our employees well, and still have a good life for our families, we have actually charge customers money.
On our residential side, we charge approx. $200/ BILLABLE Hour. We typically get 4 billable hours per 8 hr day. So on average we make $800/day/truck.
After we pay our employees, other overhead and the $2500/month for one yellow page ad, (we have 4- some guys have 20)there is not a whole lot left.
Read about how some of us show up when we say we will. Some of us show up in less than 60 min when you have an emergency. Some of us show up in the evenings or weekends to work around the customers schedule. Some of show up in the 30 min window that a customer gives us for an appointment.
Read about how many of us spend years working in the industry in order to get our licenses. Then we go to continuing education in order to keep them.
Read about the insurance that most of us carry (for the record, we carry $2,000,000 in general liability insurance.
Read about how we spend a good portion of our professional career fixing dangerous DIY and handyman wiring.
Remember, every contractor you call is a consumer to someone else. Not every consumer is a business owner. We understand what it's like to buy something. Do you understand what it's like to sell yourself and your services? (Not someone elses, but you and you alone)
So do read the site, but read it all. Don't cherry pick items out of context and attempt to prove an invalid point of opinion.
But also remember that the problems and struggles you describe exist in ALL types of work. The consumer needs to understand what costs can and should be legitimately passed on to them, and what costs are simply passed on due to greed or bad business plans.
#31
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Originally Posted by Cheetah_Boxes
LOL! If they're costs, it would be bad business NOT to pass them onto the consumer.
Maybe my wording was wrong. Let's change 'costs' to 'fees'.
determine for yourself, as a consumer/homeowner, what you are willing to pay for what type of service, and how/what fees are being billed and why.
#32
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Originally Posted by fuente
determine for yourself, as a consumer/homeowner, what you are willing to pay for what type of service, and how/what fees are being billed and why.
Here...maybe this link will help YOU decide what the CONTRACTOR is worth:
http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/
#33
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Originally Posted by Tony Bagadonutz
Here...maybe this link will help YOU decide what the CONTRACTOR is worth:
http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/
http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/
Hey, I understand you guys need to make a living. No arguements there. We all need to make enough to get by, and then some. But when contractor A quotes me 5K for a 200A upgrade, and contractor B quotes me 2K, there's a serious problem there.
And I understand that you have the right to charge whatever you want. You can be way to high and price yourself out of the market, or you can be way to low and go bankrupt. That's your choice to pick the price point; just like it's the consumers choice to be as informed as possible when making that decision between the 5K and 2K service upgrade.
And that's all this thread was about. I see a lot of first time posters here and the link to this thread posted on other boards, so I can only that 1) the contractors reading this post are misinterpreting it's intentions, or 2) the seedy underbelly of contractor's scams is being uncovered. I really hope it's not #2 because there are lot of great people in the trades that I work with on a daily basis and trust.
I'm thinking it's #1, and that's ok, but realize that just as you have your message boards concerning how to bill and sell your services, there needs to be somewhere to inform the consumer about what they are being charged and why. And that's not a bad thing, IMHO.
#34
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Originally Posted by fuente
Agreed, but only to a point. A business owner cannot ever pass on ALL costs to the consumer. They would be out of business.
Every penny I make comes from a customer willing to pay me money for my services. If they don't cover my costs, I am out of business.
Your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Please, on monday morning ask your boss how much money they must make in order to pay your salary, benefits, etc. Ask them where that money comes from. I can assure you it does not fall out of the sky.
#35
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Originally Posted by fuente
That's a great tool for the contractor, but not so much for the consumer.
Hey, I understand you guys need to make a living. No arguements there. We all need to make enough to get by, and then some. But when contractor A quotes me 5K for a 200A upgrade, and contractor B quotes me 2K, there's a serious problem there.
Hey, I understand you guys need to make a living. No arguements there. We all need to make enough to get by, and then some. But when contractor A quotes me 5K for a 200A upgrade, and contractor B quotes me 2K, there's a serious problem there.
And I understand that you have the right to charge whatever you want. You can be way to high and price yourself out of the market, or you can be way to low and go bankrupt. That's your choice to pick the price point; just like it's the consumers choice to be as informed as possible when making that decision between the 5K and 2K service upgrade.
There are different contractors. Some have skilled employees that they pay a good wage to. They use top quality materials, meet all applicable local and national codes. And generally do a very good job for the customer.
Some hire unskilled, cheap labor that are not really qualified to do the work. They use the cheapest material they can find. Cut every corner they can. Try not to file permits so they don't have to follow codes. And generally give the customer what they pay for.
There are exceptions to both rules. But in general, these are the facts.
And that's all this thread was about. I see a lot of first time posters here and the link to this thread posted on other boards, so I can only that 1) the contractors reading this post are misinterpreting it's intentions, or 2) the seedy underbelly of contractor's scams is being uncovered. I really hope it's not #2 because there are lot of great people in the trades that I work with on a daily basis and trust.
My point was, get some other estimates. IMO $100+/hr remains a ripoff.
Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+.
Considering a normal work year that's a gross of 200K. Factor in some gas, insurance, transportations costs etc. and that's a really good profit. With any kind of business sense that nets 150K+.
This thread is somewhat comical. I needed a good laugh after a hard day. $65 per SWITCH? $125 per LIGHT? You've got to be kidding me.
So $800 to buy and install the cans and one switch.
About all you can do is laugh.
This install is not rocket science. Jeez, I wonder the cost is to install a new service panel...$500 per breaker??
Sorry if this is insulting to you pros, but if someone quoted me this I'd take it as an insult and kick him out of my house.
So $800 to buy and install the cans and one switch.
About all you can do is laugh.
This install is not rocket science. Jeez, I wonder the cost is to install a new service panel...$500 per breaker??
Sorry if this is insulting to you pros, but if someone quoted me this I'd take it as an insult and kick him out of my house.
You're taking after tax. That's not all that bad. And the $14 is after tax also. Still not bad.
I'm thinking it's #1, and that's ok, but realize that just as you have your message boards concerning how to bill and sell your services, there needs to be somewhere to inform the consumer about what they are being charged and why. And that's not a bad thing, IMHO.
I want you to think of something, if we can't make enough money doing your work to make it worth our effort, why should we do it?
We are not doctors, we did not take a hippocratic oath to work for free. We are in business to make a profit. The more time we waste on people who have no intention of paying a fair price for our services, the more we have to charge the customer who do pay.
So, fellow consumers, please be aware that your rates are higher due to people like Fuente who think nothing of wasting our time and costing us money.
BTW, if you search on the internet, everything that I have talked about is available for your view. There is nothing secret here. We are real people, with real costs that we pay in order to provide a service to people who can not , or will not, do it themselves.
If you want to DIY, then by all means do. But please do not call out a contractor to quote it. Do not call a contractor on the phone and ask him which wires should go where.
In addition, how can you expect a remotely accurate price over the phone? Especially if the contractor has never been to you home. How can we possibly diagnose your problem, or comprehend what is actually involved with your particular installation?
Well, Fuente, I wish you luck in this world. However, I wish every contractor in your area the luck to not have to deal with you. It is a losing proposition and not good for ones soul.
#36
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Originally Posted by mahlere
every cost we have must be passed on to the customer or we will go out of business. If I don't pass my costs on to my customers how do I pay for them?
Every penny I make comes from a customer willing to pay me money for my services. If they don't cover my costs, I am out of business.
Your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Please, on monday morning ask your boss how much money they must make in order to pay your salary, benefits, etc. Ask them where that money comes from. I can assure you it does not fall out of the sky.
Every penny I make comes from a customer willing to pay me money for my services. If they don't cover my costs, I am out of business.
Your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Please, on monday morning ask your boss how much money they must make in order to pay your salary, benefits, etc. Ask them where that money comes from. I can assure you it does not fall out of the sky.
So because you cannot drum up business, or have a poor business plan, or bad price point, or any number of other problems that are your doing (as the business owner), you pass the cost of your inability to keep your workers busy on to the next customer, and the next one, and so on?
Is this where #2 above comes in, to recoup those costs? I'm not sure how you can justify this, let alone look in the mirror in the morning and tell yourself you are being honest to your customers.
And since we're being all high and mighty, might you tell us how much money you make, per year, on side jobs? We all know that every contractor supplements his income with tax-free, unreported, don't-bother-with-the-permit side jobs. Everyone does it. Sometimes it makes up a huge part of your yearly income.
#37
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Just read your last post. I think we can agree to disagree. I'll keep searching and asking questions of every contractor, and you keep doing what you are doing.
I wish you the best of luck.
PS and your right about passing on all costs to the consumer. You must do that. I was mistaken. But the issue becomes when you pass on 200% of the costs, and do a song and dance to sell the consumer. Again, all above board, but you're fighting an uphill battle these days if you don't break out your hourly and material costs. I know most contractors will not do this and that probably hurts them. But if you don't what those jobs anyway...I guess you could always do them 'on the side'.
And I suspect this is why you and your buddies are just a little pissed about this thread.
I wish you the best of luck.
PS and your right about passing on all costs to the consumer. You must do that. I was mistaken. But the issue becomes when you pass on 200% of the costs, and do a song and dance to sell the consumer. Again, all above board, but you're fighting an uphill battle these days if you don't break out your hourly and material costs. I know most contractors will not do this and that probably hurts them. But if you don't what those jobs anyway...I guess you could always do them 'on the side'.
And I suspect this is why you and your buddies are just a little pissed about this thread.
Last edited by fuente; 04-15-06 at 04:23 PM.
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Hey, I understand you guys need to make a living. No arguments there. We all need to make enough to get by, and then some. But when contractor A quotes me 5K for a 200A upgrade, and contractor B quotes me 2K, there's a serious problem there.
I agree 100% there is a problem there. The problem is that a lot of contractors are poor businessmen and don’t know how much it costs them to operate their business. The contractor quoting 2K may not know his costs of doing business and came up with his price by calling other contractors that don’t know their costs and charges the same price.
The contractor quoting 5K may have actually calculated how much it cost him to operate his business and set his price based on that.
From a consumer’s point of view it would seem that the contractor quoting 5K is overpriced but the reality is that the contractor quoting 2K is probably going broke and won’t be in business 5 years from now.
I know of a contractor that went bankrupt after being in business for 20 years. The only reason he was able to stay in business that long was because his wife supported them with her job. I believe he went out of business because he was charging the going rate instead of charging what he really needed to charge to cover his expenses and make a profit.
The hourly rate of $30/hr sounds more like it.
Do you know how much it costs to operate a profitable contracting business? If you don’t what makes you qualified to tell people how much they should be paying a contractor?
Here’s a link to an article that might help put things into perspective. Please read it and let me know what you think.
http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Archives/12...00f932a8c0____
For the record I don't do any jobs on the side.
Last edited by A-Line; 04-15-06 at 04:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by fuente
So if you have three workers, and one week two of them are on 100% overhead, because you cannot get them billable hours, you will pass that overhead cost on to the customer?
You think they are just going to sit around and get paid?
Maybe you can get away with that at your job, but you don't work for me.
Originally Posted by fuente
So because you cannot drum up business, or have a poor business plan, or bad price point, or any number of other problems that are your doing (as the business owner), you pass the cost of your inability to keep your workers busy on to the next customer, and the next one, and so on?
- economy is in a downward spiral and no one wants to part with any money...they may be next for a pink slip
- people doing "sidework" are completely under cutting legit contractor's pricing
Originally Posted by fuente
Is this where #2 above comes in, to recoup those costs? I'm not sure how you can justify this, let alone look in the mirror in the morning and tell yourself you are being honest to your customers.
Originally Posted by fuente
And since we're being all high and mighty, might you tell us how much money you make, per year, on side jobs? We all know that every contractor supplements his income with tax-free, unreported, don't-bother-with-the-permit side jobs. Everyone does it. Sometimes it makes up a huge part of your yearly income.
It doesn't...Joe Homeowner can simply refuse to pay and I have no recourse...Joe Homeowner could call the State's licensing board and have MY business permit cancelled. I could also be charged with a class 4 felony....all for a few bucks?
Not worth it.
On the other hand, Joe Homeowner likes the no permit job because then HE avoids paying the extra taxes on the improvement to his property....little does Joe Homeowner know that having a job done w/o permits (as required) may VOID his homeowner's insurance if an incident should occur traced back to that job....but Joe Homeowner doesn't see that, he sees DIY-save money- it's easy-anyone can do it.
Apparently you assume more than you actually know.
Everyone does NOT do it.
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Originally Posted by fuente
.... I suspect this is why you and your buddies are just a little pissed about this thread.
You are completely misinformed and cannot understand what it means to be "in business".