Renovated Bathroom - (shower pan & tiling) questions
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Renovated Bathroom - (shower pan & tiling) questions
I have been reading all the threads and appreciate the expert advice. Some questions for the experts while I start to renovate my bathroom. First some background:
1. CBS house in Florida with master shower in a corner (outside block walls on two of 4 sides). Concrete floor. House 20 years old.
2. Shower pan leaks, will be replacing it. Will follow recommendation of preslope (tile store doesn't use it).
3. Tearing out the floor tile in the rest of the bathroom and replacing with new.
Questions:
1. When using the thinset for 8" by 10" shower tiles (store recommended mastic), what inch notched trawl would you suggest (tile store said if I have to use thinset, use a 1/2 inch notched trawl, sounds too large to me)?
2. When setting the shower pan liner, how do I seal the corners over the curb. Should I glue extra material there using PVC pipe glue?
3. I'm raising the drop ceiling over the shower, may I use green board or sheet rock there. Using Durock for the shower walls with 15# felt backing.
4. Does the 15# felt backing come down and terminate on the shower side of the pan liner, or the stud side of the liner? I'm thinking shower side between liner and Durock.
That is it for now. Thanks for any advice that you can give.
Don
1. CBS house in Florida with master shower in a corner (outside block walls on two of 4 sides). Concrete floor. House 20 years old.
2. Shower pan leaks, will be replacing it. Will follow recommendation of preslope (tile store doesn't use it).
3. Tearing out the floor tile in the rest of the bathroom and replacing with new.
Questions:
1. When using the thinset for 8" by 10" shower tiles (store recommended mastic), what inch notched trawl would you suggest (tile store said if I have to use thinset, use a 1/2 inch notched trawl, sounds too large to me)?
2. When setting the shower pan liner, how do I seal the corners over the curb. Should I glue extra material there using PVC pipe glue?
3. I'm raising the drop ceiling over the shower, may I use green board or sheet rock there. Using Durock for the shower walls with 15# felt backing.
4. Does the 15# felt backing come down and terminate on the shower side of the pan liner, or the stud side of the liner? I'm thinking shower side between liner and Durock.
That is it for now. Thanks for any advice that you can give.
Don
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Good for you to question the tile store's advice. They missed on quite a few points:strike one-no shower pan preslope, strike two-mastic on the shower walls, strike 3-using a 1/2"x1/2" square notch trowel if you opted to use thinset.
So to make your life easier, find some Custom megalite thinset or Laticrete 255 thinset, both of which are non sag thinsets and will make your verticle surfaces much easier to tile.
As for your questions:
1) 1/4x1/4" square should be fine on the walls with that tile, the maximum size for mastic is 8x8 and even that is iffy. No mastic in wet areas.
2) Purchase premade dam corners. If you cannot find them locally, PM me and I will give you some online options to purchase them. Not allowed to refer you to an online site to purchase in the public area of the forum. The liner adhesive is different that the pvc cement you find in plumbing areas, and there is a different liner adhesive for pvc and for cpe liners.
3) Use regualar sheet rock. If you decide to do greenboard, it is much heavier and will require mucho blocking to be installed or for your ceiling joists to be 12" oc. If you have insulation above it, the vapor barrier facing will rot out the greenboard from back to front. If you don't have a fan, install one while you are doing your work.
4)overlap the liner by atleast 2".
There is lots of information posted by Dave Gobis in the shower disaster thread, and you can get lots of info from the please save my shower thread, both of which are active on this page.
Shower disaster: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=212155
Please save my shower: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=208279
Last and most important, please keep all your questions to this thread so the project is easy for every one who may chime in with advice to follow what has been done so far. If you have a question you think is not related to this thread and you post it into another section of the forum, please put a link to it here in this thread. Good luck.
Brian
So to make your life easier, find some Custom megalite thinset or Laticrete 255 thinset, both of which are non sag thinsets and will make your verticle surfaces much easier to tile.
As for your questions:
1) 1/4x1/4" square should be fine on the walls with that tile, the maximum size for mastic is 8x8 and even that is iffy. No mastic in wet areas.
2) Purchase premade dam corners. If you cannot find them locally, PM me and I will give you some online options to purchase them. Not allowed to refer you to an online site to purchase in the public area of the forum. The liner adhesive is different that the pvc cement you find in plumbing areas, and there is a different liner adhesive for pvc and for cpe liners.
3) Use regualar sheet rock. If you decide to do greenboard, it is much heavier and will require mucho blocking to be installed or for your ceiling joists to be 12" oc. If you have insulation above it, the vapor barrier facing will rot out the greenboard from back to front. If you don't have a fan, install one while you are doing your work.
4)overlap the liner by atleast 2".
There is lots of information posted by Dave Gobis in the shower disaster thread, and you can get lots of info from the please save my shower thread, both of which are active on this page.
Shower disaster: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=212155
Please save my shower: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=208279
Last and most important, please keep all your questions to this thread so the project is easy for every one who may chime in with advice to follow what has been done so far. If you have a question you think is not related to this thread and you post it into another section of the forum, please put a link to it here in this thread. Good luck.
Brian
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Thank you for the fast response.
My supplier had sold me JAMO Premium White sanded Thin-set Mortar for use in applying the shower wall and shower floor tile and JAMO Multi-Bond Flex Polymer Thin-set Mortar for applying the tile to my bathroom floor. The spec sheets can be found at:
http://www.jamoinc.com
Look under the set tab.
It seems like the Flex polymer should be used on the shower walls and floor, and that the Premium could be used on the bathroom floor - they told me just the opposite. If they don't look appropriate to you, I don't mind taking them back if you can tell me where I can find the "Custom megalite thinset or Laticrete 255 thinset". Are they avaliable at HD or L. Both are nearby.
I'll PM on Curbs and Pre-made dam corners.
Will tear out the shower, pan, and bathroom floor tile today. Prliminary indications are that all rules were broken when installed. No preslope, no vapor barrier, sheet rock on the outside of the curb (have not gotten to the inside yet). Taking pictures and will post later after I get more into the tear-down.
Will decide later if I'm raising the shower ceiling. Want to take a look above it first.
I have a fan vent in the bathroom ceiling just outside of the shower. Seems to work find in removing steam during showers.
Thanks again,,
Don
My supplier had sold me JAMO Premium White sanded Thin-set Mortar for use in applying the shower wall and shower floor tile and JAMO Multi-Bond Flex Polymer Thin-set Mortar for applying the tile to my bathroom floor. The spec sheets can be found at:
http://www.jamoinc.com
Look under the set tab.
It seems like the Flex polymer should be used on the shower walls and floor, and that the Premium could be used on the bathroom floor - they told me just the opposite. If they don't look appropriate to you, I don't mind taking them back if you can tell me where I can find the "Custom megalite thinset or Laticrete 255 thinset". Are they avaliable at HD or L. Both are nearby.
I'll PM on Curbs and Pre-made dam corners.
Will tear out the shower, pan, and bathroom floor tile today. Prliminary indications are that all rules were broken when installed. No preslope, no vapor barrier, sheet rock on the outside of the curb (have not gotten to the inside yet). Taking pictures and will post later after I get more into the tear-down.
Will decide later if I'm raising the shower ceiling. Want to take a look above it first.
I have a fan vent in the bathroom ceiling just outside of the shower. Seems to work find in removing steam during showers.
Thanks again,,
Don
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Megalite may or may not be available at the HD near you, but maybe you could order it from them, or check with other local tile shops and see if they carry Custom products. Dal-tile stores will have it or be able to order it as well. As for the Laticrete products, Lowes will either have it or be able to order it for you. No need to fight with gravity with the available non sag products on the market today. I did not notice a reference to any non sag features on the web site you linked. As for the vapor barrier, if greenobard was used, then there should not have been a vapor barrier behind it. Doing so will trap the gypsum core between two vapor barrier layers-taht being the green facing which is the vapor barrier and poly isntalled behind it. If you pull the sheetrock the bathroom walls and greenboard will be reinstalled in the non wet locations, don't install a vapor barier behind it. Now if your tile store does not use a slope, why would you have epected your builder. In my opinion, it is one of the most overlooked aspects of the building and plumbing codes. I have yet to ever hear of one instance where an inspector made someone redo a pan because of the lack of a prepitch under the liner. Seems all they care about is that it doesnot leak, and not how it will perform once completed or the ramifications of a lack of slope.
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Spent the day doing a teardown of the shower and bathroom floor. Use a hammer drill with flat chipper blade - worked great. Must replace a lot of the wood. Will inspect the drain assembly tomorrow.
Bathroom pictures.
http://photobucket.com/albums/y274/d...lti=1&addtype=
Notice nail in the curb on the inside of the shower. Also, around this area they finish off the bottom of the walls with mesh and mud running up approximatly 6 inches. Had water under the pan, no preslope, and the back corner is especially wet. Will replace all insulation below 2' high. Back wall insulation was wet.
Bathroom pictures.
http://photobucket.com/albums/y274/d...lti=1&addtype=
Notice nail in the curb on the inside of the shower. Also, around this area they finish off the bottom of the walls with mesh and mud running up approximatly 6 inches. Had water under the pan, no preslope, and the back corner is especially wet. Will replace all insulation below 2' high. Back wall insulation was wet.
#6
dwcurry, I find it easiest to post from Photobucket by attaching the URL of each picture as I have done below. Just make sure that you copy the entire URL - every letter. This way no one needs to know your password to get in. (The picture I attached shows you where to find the URL.)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...bucketpost.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...bucketpost.jpg
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Thanks Gene250 How is this?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...movingTile.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...insidecurb.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...hallaround.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...backcorner.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Drainside.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/Draintop.jpg
Looks like the complete drain assembly needs to be replace. Do I brake the concrete out and down from beyound the outer black ring? I'll revisit the Save MY Shower Thread.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...movingTile.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...insidecurb.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...hallaround.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...backcorner.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Drainside.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/Draintop.jpg
Looks like the complete drain assembly needs to be replace. Do I brake the concrete out and down from beyound the outer black ring? I'll revisit the Save MY Shower Thread.
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Tilebri,
Have not been able to locate a place that sells the Custom Building Products Megalite . I will try one last store tomorrow that is listed in the Custom Building Products website. HD recommended the Custom Building Products Versabond, spec sheet at:
http://www.custombuildingproducts.co...er=diy&lang=en
If I can't get the Megalite do you think that the Versabond will work?
I have replaced the shower light and I'll be replacing the drain and doing framing prep work the rest of the week, between my day job.
Hope your Memorial Day is going well.
Don
Have not been able to locate a place that sells the Custom Building Products Megalite . I will try one last store tomorrow that is listed in the Custom Building Products website. HD recommended the Custom Building Products Versabond, spec sheet at:
http://www.custombuildingproducts.co...er=diy&lang=en
If I can't get the Megalite do you think that the Versabond will work?
I have replaced the shower light and I'll be replacing the drain and doing framing prep work the rest of the week, between my day job.
Hope your Memorial Day is going well.
Don
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Contacted Custom Products and located a local store that has a half skid of Megalite . (Gene250, if you plan on using megalite and can't find it in you area, PM me and I'll give you the store name and location. I live 45 miles east of you).
In addition to the shower walls, may I also use the Megalite to install the shower floor tile? I'm using 3" x 3" irregular tile.
I ordered the curb and dam corners from Noble.
In addition to the shower walls, may I also use the Megalite to install the shower floor tile? I'm using 3" x 3" irregular tile.
I ordered the curb and dam corners from Noble.
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Why in the world was this tile question post moved? Certainly won't get as much attention by tile people with the word moved put before the post. Maybe it will get the attention of those who will say to use mastic . Please put me back in the tile forum where I will get the correct attention and please have a great day
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Status: I’m preparing to put lattice work (1/4 inch flat molding) on three of the four shower walls. The fourth wall runs out of the shower and the width of the bathroom. Therefore, I don’t think that I should shim it out as it won’t align with the rest of the wall. I just added some tapcons to help secure the furring strips on the outside block walls. I was afraid that the old concrete nails may not hold under the weight of the Durock and tile.
Please help answer a couple of questions. First, how low do I put the lattice, or another way of putting it is how high off of the shower floor should the lattice work start?
Secondly, if I bring the Durock a foot out of the shower, will that foot of Durock look like the rest of the bathroom drywall if it is primed and painted? If not, would Wonderboard or Hardieboard be better to get this look?
Don
Please help answer a couple of questions. First, how low do I put the lattice, or another way of putting it is how high off of the shower floor should the lattice work start?
Secondly, if I bring the Durock a foot out of the shower, will that foot of Durock look like the rest of the bathroom drywall if it is primed and painted? If not, would Wonderboard or Hardieboard be better to get this look?
Don
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The furring strips should come down to the top of the liner over the walls, which will come up about 8" or so, the slope under the liner will be about 2" thick at th walls, so figure about 10" up off the floor. You can always add another stud to keep the seam between the backer and the sheetrock closer to the shower. Have your tile extend out from the shower far enought o cover the seam so you can just tape/thinset, set your tile over the joint and you won't have to finish the seam or try to skim coat the backer.
I have copied your thread from the framing forum so that all the info involved in this project is in one place. If you post all shower related questions here, then me, RD, TGB, and adanac will ensure the advice you get for this project is the right advice:
dwcurry
Question Pressure Treated Wood
Is there any problem with using PT wood when framing? I have two uses I'm considering, one is in the construction of a 18' by 22' shed, and the other is adding to the frame behind a shower that I'm rebuilding (will use Durock and the current spacing is 24", need to bring it down to 16").
First shed got ate by termites, except for the PT base plate.
I do not know if PT will warp over time or not.
#2 06-01-05, 10:28 PM
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You can use pressure treated lumber if you want. Lots of people do. Not a problem with it. Good Luck
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Today, 09:42 AM
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Do whatever you want with your shed, PT is fine, but DO NOT use it in the shower walls. It comes so wet and will shrink and twist, etc and the shear forces it caused on the backer will crack your tile field. I'll cut and paste this and put it into your other thread. Please keep all the shower questions in the original thread so all the advice concerning the shower is kept correct for that application. Me, Adanac, RD, and TGB will keep up on it there, but disregard the above advice for shower framing.
I have copied your thread from the framing forum so that all the info involved in this project is in one place. If you post all shower related questions here, then me, RD, TGB, and adanac will ensure the advice you get for this project is the right advice:
dwcurry
Question Pressure Treated Wood
Is there any problem with using PT wood when framing? I have two uses I'm considering, one is in the construction of a 18' by 22' shed, and the other is adding to the frame behind a shower that I'm rebuilding (will use Durock and the current spacing is 24", need to bring it down to 16").
First shed got ate by termites, except for the PT base plate.
I do not know if PT will warp over time or not.
#2 06-01-05, 10:28 PM
Jack the Contractor
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You can use pressure treated lumber if you want. Lots of people do. Not a problem with it. Good Luck
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You have to spread your Wings if you want to Soar with the Eagles.
#3
Today, 09:42 AM
Tilebri
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Do whatever you want with your shed, PT is fine, but DO NOT use it in the shower walls. It comes so wet and will shrink and twist, etc and the shear forces it caused on the backer will crack your tile field. I'll cut and paste this and put it into your other thread. Please keep all the shower questions in the original thread so all the advice concerning the shower is kept correct for that application. Me, Adanac, RD, and TGB will keep up on it there, but disregard the above advice for shower framing.
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Thanks Tilebri,
I asked about moving my thread back to where it was and got the following:
The post contains several different questions/topics combined into one, and it's best left in the Bathroom Remodeling forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwcurry
Bob,Could you please move my Thread "Renovated Bathroom - Questions" back to the "Ceramic Tile, Marble, Terrazzo, etc" forum. All my questions center around this subject.
Thank you,
Don
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I appreciate it that your continuing to follow my thread. And, I'll only post my questions here until the bathroom is all done.
I'm thinking that my preslope will be ~1" thick at the wall - assuming a flange of 1/4" thickness and the corners being 2.5 feet from the flange. Would you agree that the 1" estimate is about right. Just trying to make sure that my assumption of 1/4 inch rise per 1 foot is correct.
Good suggestion on hiding the Durock to Sheetrock seam with the tile. Am I correct that I can use thinset and fiber tape for the seam?
I had gone ahead and added two studs to the shower wall. I used untreated wood so It looks like I made the right decision.
I asked about moving my thread back to where it was and got the following:
The post contains several different questions/topics combined into one, and it's best left in the Bathroom Remodeling forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwcurry
Bob,Could you please move my Thread "Renovated Bathroom - Questions" back to the "Ceramic Tile, Marble, Terrazzo, etc" forum. All my questions center around this subject.
Thank you,
Don
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I appreciate it that your continuing to follow my thread. And, I'll only post my questions here until the bathroom is all done.
I'm thinking that my preslope will be ~1" thick at the wall - assuming a flange of 1/4" thickness and the corners being 2.5 feet from the flange. Would you agree that the 1" estimate is about right. Just trying to make sure that my assumption of 1/4 inch rise per 1 foot is correct.
Good suggestion on hiding the Durock to Sheetrock seam with the tile. Am I correct that I can use thinset and fiber tape for the seam?
I had gone ahead and added two studs to the shower wall. I used untreated wood so It looks like I made the right decision.
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It's so easy to give bad news when you are 950 miles away. Replace the drain. You want to have the bottom ring of the drain assembly about 1" above the slab, not to mention that with all that visible corrosion, whether you would be able to get a water tight seal protecting your preslope. The preslope over a slab needs to be 1" thick at the drain, and rise 1/4" per foot to the furthest point from the drain. WHo knows if you even have working wepholes left in that drain. Go rent yourself some heavy tools to tear out enough concrete to replace the drain. Looks like cast to me, so replace from atleast behind the trap to the stub out for your clamping drain. Fernco makes clamping adapters to joint the two pipes. Pack sand in the hole once the drain is replaced and backfill with cement. The drypack you use to make your preslope won;t be strong enough if you make it thinner than 1". Some say 3/4" is fine over a slab at the drain, but I prefer 1". Gene's thread had some great pictures of the process, but if I remember, he had pvc, which would have been easier for you, but...
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The good news is I have your advice before I make a big mistake.
Will rip out drain later today. Looking inside it I see PVC pipe starting about 3 inches down, so I might get lucky and not have to deal with cast. Stay tuned on that.
OK, 1" thickness at the drain flange for the preslope - then go up 1/4 inch per foot. At 2.5 feet this should give me a thickness of approximately 1 and 5/8 at the wall. Then my final base has to be 1 and 1/4 thick over the pan liner, this will give me approximately 2 and 7/8, or 3 inches total thickness around. The dam is three 2 by 4's high which is 4 and 3/4 inches high.
The result of the the above leaves me with 1 and 3/4 inches from the top of the dam (not including tile) down to the top of the finished pan (not including tile). Does this sound correct?
Will rip out drain later today. Looking inside it I see PVC pipe starting about 3 inches down, so I might get lucky and not have to deal with cast. Stay tuned on that.
OK, 1" thickness at the drain flange for the preslope - then go up 1/4 inch per foot. At 2.5 feet this should give me a thickness of approximately 1 and 5/8 at the wall. Then my final base has to be 1 and 1/4 thick over the pan liner, this will give me approximately 2 and 7/8, or 3 inches total thickness around. The dam is three 2 by 4's high which is 4 and 3/4 inches high.
The result of the the above leaves me with 1 and 3/4 inches from the top of the dam (not including tile) down to the top of the finished pan (not including tile). Does this sound correct?
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When you do your setting bed of mud, you will lay lath folded over the dam and nailed on the outside of the curb only. Then set your mud and then build your dam with mason's mix to 1/2" thick, or thicker. The mud will hold the inside of the lath against the curb, no nails. The cement over the lath will raise the curb height to where you need it. No probs.
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Well I have had some good luck . I used an Inside Pipe Cutter (my neighbor turned me on to this, purchase it at Harbor Freight) to cut the old drain below the cast iron flange. It saved me from having to break a large hole in the slab to get a saw on the PVC pipe.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0454.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0455.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0453.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0452.jpg
That is a sock that it stuck in the drain pipe. I didn't want to loose my cutter.
Now I'm going to install the new drain with the bottom flange 1" off of the slab.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0454.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0455.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0453.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0452.jpg
That is a sock that it stuck in the drain pipe. I didn't want to loose my cutter.
Now I'm going to install the new drain with the bottom flange 1" off of the slab.
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LUcky for you, and I will point this out so Gene doesn't want to kill me for not suggesting it, his drain was fully entombed in the pour, whereas yours was not which made the inside pipe cutter an option for you. As long as you can get the coupler down there, and the pipes clean, primed and glued, you are good to go. If there is not ample room, you will need to start chipping away. If you don't get a perfect seal where you tie into that pipe, all the work is for nothing. Hope it works out for you.
I also notice your thread is back where it belongs.
I also notice your thread is back where it belongs.
Last edited by Tilebri; 06-04-05 at 01:22 PM.
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Drain is in and concrete is also:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0457.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0459.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0460.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0462.jpg
I'm taking the rest if the night off and will start the preslope tomorrow afternoon.
Is good to be back in the right forum.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0457.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0459.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0460.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0462.jpg
I'm taking the rest if the night off and will start the preslope tomorrow afternoon.
Is good to be back in the right forum.
#22
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Preslope is in, but not without its problems. The electricity went out in the neighborhood half way through the job. I had to use a flashlight for about a 3rd if it.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0465.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0466.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0467.jpg
Rainy week in Florida.
I have seen one site where someone recommended putting 15lb felt between the liner and the preslope. I don't think they ment to attach it to the drain. They said it is to prevent any abrasion of the liner by the preslope. What are your thoughts on this?
Any problem with testing my preslope drainage with pouring water over it before installing the liner?
Are electro galv nails OK to nail the pan liner to the walls? Or, should I use stainless steel?
Off to dinner. I know - slacking again.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0465.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0466.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...n/IMG_0467.jpg
Rainy week in Florida.
I have seen one site where someone recommended putting 15lb felt between the liner and the preslope. I don't think they ment to attach it to the drain. They said it is to prevent any abrasion of the liner by the preslope. What are your thoughts on this?
Any problem with testing my preslope drainage with pouring water over it before installing the liner?
Are electro galv nails OK to nail the pan liner to the walls? Or, should I use stainless steel?
Off to dinner. I know - slacking again.
Last edited by dwcurry; 06-06-05 at 03:34 PM.
#23
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DO NOT test your pre-slope with water, it will run down and under the drain into the flooring below, you only test the pan for leaks after the liner is in and before the final mud bed and tile.
No need for anything over the liner, just place your mud.
The roofing nails are fine.
No need for anything over the liner, just place your mud.
The roofing nails are fine.
#24
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Thanks R&D. I should of thought water penetrating
My question regarding the felt was meant to be felt under the liner, and not on top. I picked this up from:
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuild...ges/h00125.asp
I'll follow whatever you guys suggest. Just wanted to clarify under and not over.
I purchased a mud mix from the tile store to go under the pan. I need to get more but want to pick it up from some place closer - HD. Is Sakrete Sand Mix (see web link below) ok for the base over the liner (too lazy to mix my own)?
http://www.sakretenw.com/products.html
I purchased a Noble preformed curb. Should it butt up against the Durock/Hardibacker, or should the Durock/Hardibacker come down to the top of the prformed curb?
Don
My question regarding the felt was meant to be felt under the liner, and not on top. I picked this up from:
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuild...ges/h00125.asp
I'll follow whatever you guys suggest. Just wanted to clarify under and not over.
I purchased a mud mix from the tile store to go under the pan. I need to get more but want to pick it up from some place closer - HD. Is Sakrete Sand Mix (see web link below) ok for the base over the liner (too lazy to mix my own)?
http://www.sakretenw.com/products.html
I purchased a Noble preformed curb. Should it butt up against the Durock/Hardibacker, or should the Durock/Hardibacker come down to the top of the prformed curb?
Don
Last edited by dwcurry; 06-06-05 at 07:46 PM.
#25
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The sand mix will work, but has more cement than the usual mud mix, adding a little sand to it does the trick, but I never use it, so don't know exactly how much to add, I mix my own from Portland cement and mason sand, 4 parts sand to 1 part portland, mixed till it just holds together in a ball.
I would put the curb in first, again, I build all of my curbs with mason mix over lath that's over the liner, never used the noble curb, but heard it's fine to use.
I would put the curb in first, again, I build all of my curbs with mason mix over lath that's over the liner, never used the noble curb, but heard it's fine to use.
#26
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I wish I had known this before
Originally Posted by Tilebri
It's so easy to give bad news when you are 950 miles away. Replace the drain. You want to have the bottom ring of the drain assembly about 1" above the slab, not to mention that with all that visible corrosion, whether you would be able to get a water tight seal protecting your preslope. The preslope over a slab needs to be 1" thick at the drain, and rise 1/4" per foot to the furthest point from the drain. WHo knows if you even have working wepholes left in that drain. Go rent yourself some heavy tools to tear out enough concrete to replace the drain. Looks like cast to me, so replace from atleast behind the trap to the stub out for your clamping drain. Fernco makes clamping adapters to joint the two pipes. Pack sand in the hole once the drain is replaced and backfill with cement. The drypack you use to make your preslope won;t be strong enough if you make it thinner than 1". Some say 3/4" is fine over a slab at the drain, but I prefer 1". Gene's thread had some great pictures of the process, but if I remember, he had pvc, which would have been easier for you, but...
Now I am ready to pour my pre slope and I read that I should have at least 3/4" or 1"? Why does it have to be this way? Won't be strong enough? Isn't it concrete on top of concrete?
#27
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Hey Tyger, how about you start your own shower thread. THere is no limits here to how many shower threads go on at a time and it's getting tough to keep up with bits of info in several other threads. WHile you willcertainly get lots of information out of the other threads, one thread with all your questions along the way is the easiest way to ensure you get correct info that relates to your situation. Deck mud needs to be a minimum thickness to remain strong enough to stay together. Thinset is really too sticky to try to shape and slope. You say concrete on top of concrete, but the last I remember you were planning on using cment board until that was corrected and cement board only goes over plywood or studs. Make a thread with all the details of what youv'e done so far.
#28
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OK - I’m rounding first and headed for second. Time for me to install the pan, curb, Durock and Mud. Please check out the following sequence of events and questions, and let me know if I got it right.
1. Drain out, flange top off, and replace screws in flange holes.
2. Install curb corners purchase from Noble.
3. Spread and cut pan liner to size. Folding and nailing in corners above curb level. Nail to studs above curb level. Glue to curb corners with Oatley X-15 Shower Pan Liner Adhesive. Nail to backside of the three 2 by 4’s that form the curb.
4. Locate drain and cut out opening in the pan. Cut holes where screws are located. Make sure material does not cover weep holes. Silicon under liner so that it forms a seal between the liner and the pan material. Screw flange back into place making sure weep holes are clear.
5. Install preformed curb, purchased from noble. Use thin set between curb and liner, nail on outside.
6. Install DuRock to within 1/2 inch of pan material? Bring down to within 1/8 inch of curb?
7. Put drain top back in and set at 1 and ¼ inch above pan.
8. Mix and place mud over pan with ¼" slope per foot. Must be even/level around all walls and curb. Mud is to slope to the drain top, leaving room for thickness of tile.
9. Check into hospital until back cramps subside.
1. Drain out, flange top off, and replace screws in flange holes.
2. Install curb corners purchase from Noble.
3. Spread and cut pan liner to size. Folding and nailing in corners above curb level. Nail to studs above curb level. Glue to curb corners with Oatley X-15 Shower Pan Liner Adhesive. Nail to backside of the three 2 by 4’s that form the curb.
4. Locate drain and cut out opening in the pan. Cut holes where screws are located. Make sure material does not cover weep holes. Silicon under liner so that it forms a seal between the liner and the pan material. Screw flange back into place making sure weep holes are clear.
5. Install preformed curb, purchased from noble. Use thin set between curb and liner, nail on outside.
6. Install DuRock to within 1/2 inch of pan material? Bring down to within 1/8 inch of curb?
7. Put drain top back in and set at 1 and ¼ inch above pan.
8. Mix and place mud over pan with ¼" slope per foot. Must be even/level around all walls and curb. Mud is to slope to the drain top, leaving room for thickness of tile.
9. Check into hospital until back cramps subside.
#29
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Originally Posted by dwcurry
4. Locate drain and cut out opening in the pan. Cut holes where screws are located. Make sure material does not cover weep holes. Silicon under liner so that it forms a seal between the liner and the pan material. Screw flange back into place making sure weep holes are clear.
5. Install preformed curb, purchased from noble. Use thin set between curb and liner, nail on outside.
5. Install preformed curb, purchased from noble. Use thin set between curb and liner, nail on outside.
Originally Posted by dwcurry
7. Put drain top back in and set at 1 and ¼ inch above pan.
8. Mix and place mud over pan with ¼" slope per foot. Must be even/level around all walls and curb. Mud is to slope to the drain top, leaving room for thickness of tile.
8. Mix and place mud over pan with ¼" slope per foot. Must be even/level around all walls and curb. Mud is to slope to the drain top, leaving room for thickness of tile.
#30
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Thanks for the leak test reminder. Any suggestions on how to plug the drain below the weep holes?.. The 2" drain plugs won't go pass the threads on the Oatley drains. Will a balloon work?
Tilebri,
In a post to another thread you stated "Thus the need for the vapor barrier behind the CBU. Make sure you seal it to the shower pan liner." What did you mean by "sealing it"? Is there a glueing/caulking process that is to take place, or did you just mean to bring it down to the inside of the liner (drain side) approximately level with the bottom of the CBU?
Also, in your opinion, would any problems be caused if I put 15# or 30# felt between the preslope and the liner (not secuerd to the drain)? My trawling job was not the smoothest (especially after the lights went out) and I heard that this will help avoid any abrasive action between the preslope and the liner.
Tilebri,
In a post to another thread you stated "Thus the need for the vapor barrier behind the CBU. Make sure you seal it to the shower pan liner." What did you mean by "sealing it"? Is there a glueing/caulking process that is to take place, or did you just mean to bring it down to the inside of the liner (drain side) approximately level with the bottom of the CBU?
Also, in your opinion, would any problems be caused if I put 15# or 30# felt between the preslope and the liner (not secuerd to the drain)? My trawling job was not the smoothest (especially after the lights went out) and I heard that this will help avoid any abrasive action between the preslope and the liner.
Last edited by dwcurry; 06-10-05 at 06:47 AM.
#31
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I said that? Since the liner can go up the wall enough for a few inches of overlap, that's fine. You do need to seal it to tub and shower flanges. As for your slope, you can grind it smooth and use a bit of thinset to fill in any little dips. There is no need for tar paper under the liner at all. You do want your preslope and final setting bed to be smooth.
#33
Me Too
Just pulled some shower stall wall tiles out that were cracked. The front of the tiles were white, the drywall green and the insulation behind the vapor barrier -- dark green (and furry) and the studs soft and wet. As soon as I saw the pan lining was cut at the floor level at all but one wall, I knew Murphys Law would prevail once again.
When we replace the walls, is insulation necessary - there seems to be batt insulation although the shower does not abut an outside wall. And if insulation is a good idea, should we use a vapor barrier like the builder did? Would cement board be appropriate or just drywall?
Thanks.
When we replace the walls, is insulation necessary - there seems to be batt insulation although the shower does not abut an outside wall. And if insulation is a good idea, should we use a vapor barrier like the builder did? Would cement board be appropriate or just drywall?
Thanks.
Last edited by Murphyslaw; 06-12-05 at 09:08 PM. Reason: clarification
#34
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Murphy, insuation is needed in exterior walls. What you don't ever want is greenboard in a shower or greenboard with faced insulation or a vapor barrier behind it, wet or dry area. Acoustical insulation can be installed but is not needed in wall cavities of interior walls where the noise of the shower carrying into other rooms would want to be reduced. Start your own thread and we'll get you through a lifetime type shower pan installation. Starting with demo, start ripping and have fun. I'm going to sed a Private message to a moderator to separate your post and this reply into it's own thread entitled "Murphy's shower"
#35
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Pan has passed the 24hr water test, vapor barrier is up, and five of eight durock panels are installed.
I have installed the panels with the smooth side out, now I've read on the Durock website that the textured side is for thinset mortar applications. First I've heard of this. What is you experience? Will the smooth side out work for my application? As a reminder, I'm using the Megalite Mortar.
Thanks,
Don
I have installed the panels with the smooth side out, now I've read on the Durock website that the textured side is for thinset mortar applications. First I've heard of this. What is you experience? Will the smooth side out work for my application? As a reminder, I'm using the Megalite Mortar.
Thanks,
Don
Last edited by dwcurry; 06-14-05 at 04:49 AM.
#36
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Good news and bad news. Very excited for you about the pan test. Your project seems to be progressing very well. That's the good news.
Now for the bad news.
You will need to take down al lthe durock, replace all the poly and then flip all the backer around. If the holes no longer line up with studs, you must scrap the backer, go out and buy more because you don't want swiss chees as your tile substrate, then reinstall new backer, rough side up.
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just kidding, you're fine. thinset will stick to either side just fine. flat trowel the thinset over the board then comb your lines,
Now for the bad news.
You will need to take down al lthe durock, replace all the poly and then flip all the backer around. If the holes no longer line up with studs, you must scrap the backer, go out and buy more because you don't want swiss chees as your tile substrate, then reinstall new backer, rough side up.
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just kidding, you're fine. thinset will stick to either side just fine. flat trowel the thinset over the board then comb your lines,
#37
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Removed all Durock, flipped it, and put back up. Holes matched up. Not!
After recovering from my fainting spell, I continued to install the Durock with smooth side out. All walls are complete.
Questions:
1. Would you recommend taping the seams or installing the final mud bed next?
2. When installing the final mud, do I make the outer 1" flat/level (outside screed?) and then taper down to the drain from there? Or, do I just taper all the way to the wall?
3. When tiling, does the bottom row come in contact with the mud or is a gap left to be filled by grout?
Don
After recovering from my fainting spell, I continued to install the Durock with smooth side out. All walls are complete.
Questions:
1. Would you recommend taping the seams or installing the final mud bed next?
2. When installing the final mud, do I make the outer 1" flat/level (outside screed?) and then taper down to the drain from there? Or, do I just taper all the way to the wall?
3. When tiling, does the bottom row come in contact with the mud or is a gap left to be filled by grout?
Don
Last edited by dwcurry; 06-17-05 at 08:06 AM.
#38
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1)Tape as you tile, leave the end peices out for a column or two (depending on tile size) so you can go into and turn the corners without a bulge, or tape and taper the thinset very thin, just covering the top of the mesh and no thicker, let some ooze out the back in the corner when you set the tile and then clean it up, once again, depends on tile size. As for the 3/4" in the mud bed untaped, no big deal.
2)The whole thing can follow the slope, no need have the perimeter flat, as it will cause problems getting the tile set with good coverage. Make sure it's uniformly 1 1/4" thick.
3) You can actually set the bottom row, then the final mud, slightly in the mud but yolur cuts will need to be dead on, or you can do the mud, do the walls except for the bottom row, tile the pan and then cut the tile along the bottom to overlap the tile on the pan,. When you set your starting row of tile (row 2 and working up, make sure you measure for the thickness of the grout line and 1/8" gap between the pan tile and the tile thickness on the pan with about 1/16-1/8" added for the thinset under the pan tile. (I prefer option 2)
2)The whole thing can follow the slope, no need have the perimeter flat, as it will cause problems getting the tile set with good coverage. Make sure it's uniformly 1 1/4" thick.
3) You can actually set the bottom row, then the final mud, slightly in the mud but yolur cuts will need to be dead on, or you can do the mud, do the walls except for the bottom row, tile the pan and then cut the tile along the bottom to overlap the tile on the pan,. When you set your starting row of tile (row 2 and working up, make sure you measure for the thickness of the grout line and 1/8" gap between the pan tile and the tile thickness on the pan with about 1/16-1/8" added for the thinset under the pan tile. (I prefer option 2)
#39
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Mud Bed is completed. I put pea rock around the drain. In making the slope I put down some furring strips and sloped them appropriately, took them out after I got the mud to the right slope – filled in the gaps. The furring strips were lifted off the floor and placed on the mud until I got the 1 1/4" thickness.
Pictures:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Shower019.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Shower020.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Shower021.jpg
My shower floor tiles are 3” x 3”, what size notch trowel would you recommend using with the Megalite? Square or V?
Don
Pictures:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Shower019.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Shower020.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27.../Shower021.jpg
My shower floor tiles are 3” x 3”, what size notch trowel would you recommend using with the Megalite? Square or V?
Don
Last edited by dwcurry; 06-21-05 at 10:45 AM.
#40
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In addition to my above question concerning the size of the trowel when applying my shower floor tile, I have another. I'm using unsanded grout on the walls, the irregular shaped floor tile will have spacing of 1/16 to 3/16 inches. Do I use sanded or unsanded grout? What determines which is used where?
Thanks,
Don
Thanks,
Don