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Originally Posted by L_Cubed  Anyone have any good advice on pondless waterfalls? They a good idea or bad one? Any design sites with good suggestions? |
Dear L_Cubed,
Your question, "They a good idea or bad one?", cannot be properly answered in a couple of sentences. Here is my shocking answer to your supposedly simple question.
I am truly grieved by all these dishonest, shifty, greedy malefactors, posing as experts in the waterfall and pond industry.
I must have misunderstood the rules of this forum; not to use your real name; not to promote your website or products, directly or indirectly... I will discuss this a little later on!
There are now thousands of pond liner installers, posing as expert, deceiving people by holding back an important truth about pond liner construction.
Why? If the truth were reveiled up front, 70% of the people opting for a liner pond would not invest in one.
I have been designing and building water features for over a quarter of a century. Personally constructing well over 1,900 to date. Why am I telling you this? So you will have a reference point to draw your conclusions from, for my statements related to me being an expert in the industry.
The number of unhappy pond liner owners that approach my booth at the trade and water garden shows , is staggering at best. After I listen intently to their personal horror stories, I ask them if the pond installer told them the down side to liner ponds. They have now clue what I am talking about.
They would confess that the installer emphasized the 2 or 5 year warranty on the liner itself against factory defects. However, no mention that they would later refuse to correct serious issues down the road created by burrowing, gnawing, animals such as mice, rats, ground squirrels, gophers, chipmunks or ground hogs. Nor was the possibility of punctures from roots or settling heavy boulders stretching the liner to a point of rupture.
I explain what the options are: Just incase there is more than one leak from more than one possible cause, we will need to take the waterfall completely apart, drain the pond, (relocate the fish) clean up the liner and look for leaks.
One issue is, how do you find a pin hole? I can illustrate using a 36 inch square of pond liner. Have four people take each corner and poke a hole in the liner using a knitting needle. I will then pour a gallon of water onto the liner. You will observe only a drip per second, passing through the hole. However, only one drip per second, translates to 5 GALLONS of water in a twenty four hour time span.
Now I ask the four people to tug on the corners stretching the liner as a couple of heavy rocks would. As the liner is stretched, the hole is also stretched and the water starts drizzling out.
A liner installer and waterfall builder of 19 years has published these statistics: I praise him for his honesty!
1. More than 37% of all waterfalls have serious structural damage within 3 years of it being built.
2. 57% of homeowners say they’re rather unsatisfied with the way their waterfall came out – after the project was completed.
3. Nearly 1 in 3 waterfalls and ponds are leaking water within 9 months of completion.
4. 27% of all outdoor waterfalls and ponds have pumps that are either too strong or too weak – causing unnecessary expenditures down the road.
5. 63% of ‘do It yourselfers’ said they wish they had the proper information from the ‘get go’ or they wished they would have hired someone!
These figures also line up with my personal experience. I thank God I did not jump on the greedy, get-rich-quick-scheme, band wagon, started by the "liner messiah" and all his "disciples." I could have ended up being one of the dozens being sued here in San Diego. Fortunately, I'm an expert witness for the prosecutor , rather than a defendant.
I am delighted to report, that so far, 100% of the plaintiffs have won their cases.
Why am I doing this? To try and restore integrity back to the water feature industry. For the same reason I am writing this article to expose impostors.
Speaking of impostors, I am going to use this name, John Russell. I am safe referring to this name because it is not his real name. For I know it is against the rules of the Forum to use your real name.
John Russell offered "free" information to readers of this category about Pondless waterfalls. What a coincidence. I sent an email to a man by that name, who was boasting on his website, that he ,"...was the one who started the pondless waterfall craze that has spread around the world. I am the first one ever to come up with the pondless waterfall..." That is all I will quote, I am starting to get nauseous.
My email, was to inform him that his statements were not true, about being the first. I included in my email a photo of a pondless waterfall I built back in 1983 (one of many) and included the clients name and address for verification.
I am a freelance writer for several magazines, and have been sharing my concept in articles nation-wide. From pond magazines like "Ponds, to landscape magazines like Better Homes & Gardens or San Diego Home & Garden. He never responded to my email.
He also boasted about being in the number one spot when you google "pondless waterfalls" He implied on his website, that this proved what he was saying was true.
WOW! another incredible coincidence! I know it has to be, because another rule of the forum is, " you are not to give reference to your product or your website..." yet, this unknown author's name is the same name as the owner of the website that contains all these boasts. If you read this far, you have earned this next bit of prose.
Hopefully, this article will not only save you hundreds of dollars but, it will leave you with a positive taste in your mouth. If I repeat a few facts, that is good, some things need repeating...
Pondless Waterfalls: Concrete vs. Pond Liner
The get-rich-quick factor in the pond liner industry has forced up the price of pond liner kits to equal the cost of concrete construction. If you search for the truth about concrete ponds and waterfalls from reading the literature of the greed-driven liner pond industry, you will not find it. Why?
Because if the truth be known, no one in their right mind would invest good, hard-earned money in a pond liner!
The pond liner track record speaks for itself:
More than 37% of all waterfalls have serious structural damage within 3 years of construction.
57% of homeowners say they are rather unsatisfied with the way their waterfall came out after the project was completed.
One in three waterfalls and ponds are leaking water within nine months of completion.
63% of “do-it-yourselfers” say they wished they had the proper information from the “get go” or that they had hired someone.
These statistics are from the pond liner industry itself (Bob Wilder, 48-Hour Waterfall). I can confirm and attest to these figures myself. I have built over 1,900 concrete and rebar waterfalls and ponds over the past 26 years. I have ripped out and replaced dozens of defective liner ponds and replaced them with concrete ones with lifetime warranties.
Pond liner guys will not attach more than a one-year warranty. They make no guarantee against rats, mice, ground squirrels, gophers, tree roots and sharp objects.
Let’s compare apples to lemons … First, let’s talk about apples (concrete waterfalls). We will construct a pondless waterfall that is 20 inches wide at the top by 20 feet long, becoming 24 inches wide at the bottom, to create a spillway 3 feet tall. At the bottom is a catch basin 4 ft. x 6 ft. x 3 ft. deep.
The costs of excavation are as follows:
To dig a waterfall and basin takes two men 4 hours @ $20 per hour = $160. The flexible PVC pipe is 35 ft. @ $1.25 per ft. = $44. Concrete (3500 psi with stealth fiber)): 2 ½ yards = $250. 20 pieces of 20 ft. x 3/8 inch rebar = $100. One 1/3 HP high efficiency pump, 2800 GPH, 356 watts = $429. One anti-vortex drain = $10. Four 2 x 4 ft. heavy plastic corrugated or galvanized plans to cover the collection basin = $35. Setting the rebar: 3 man-hrs. = $225. Pumping and finishing 2 ½ yards of concrete: 4 man-hrs. @ $75/hr. = $300. Applying thoro-seal, 1 sack + 1 hour = $43. Rock work + 8 sacks mortar mix: labor - 8 man-hrs. @ $75/hr. = $600.
Mortar: $40.
TOTAL EXCAVATION COST FOR A CONCRETE POND = $2,236.
With this type of construction, no filter is needed. The water in the basin is not exposed to sunlight, so there are no algae. Plus the top layer of rock and the planks are easily removed for cleaning out debris about once a year. If a plastic screen is placed over the planks before the rock layer, cleaning is reduced by 90%.
Now let’s talk about the lemons (the liner folks). The pondless waterfall liner kit advertised by all the disciples of the “liner messiah” on their websites is $1,940 + tax & shipping, or $2,176.
And now for the math: One concrete/rebar construction pondless waterfall completed with high-efficiency pump = $2,236. One pondless liner kit to build a pondless waterfall of the exact same dimensions = $2,176. If I did the math correctly, the completed concrete pondless waterfall costs $60 more than the pondless waterfall liner kit; however, it is still in the box!
Concrete and rebar pondless waterfall has a lifetime warranty. Liner pondless waterfall: 1 yr. warranty on labor, lifetime warranty against factory defect. But there is no warranty whatsoever against holes caused by rats, mice, ground squirrels, gophers, tree roots, sharp objects, etc. Sorry Charlie!
Concrete and rebar pondless waterfalls use a high-efficiency above-ground pump that is easy to service (it has a 3 yr. warranty). The 1/3 HP pump is small, very quiet, and easily hidden behind a couple of rocks or plants next to the falls, or piped to another part of the yard.
The liner pondless waterfall uses a submersible sump pump that is placed in the bottom of the basin, and then buried with hundreds of pounds of rocks. To service this pump (only a 2 ½ yr. warranty), all the slimy, stinky rocks have to be removed from the basin first.
The concrete and rebar pondless waterfall pump produces 5,800 gallons per hour at only 356 watts (retail $429). The liner pondless waterfall kit comes with a sump pump (they advertise as “the best pump on the market”). It produces 5,700 gal/hour (100 gal. less) at a whopping 911 watts of power (over twice that of the above-ground pump). You will pay $525 more per year for electricity (at $.12/kwh) for that extra 555 watts. Their pump costs $600 retail ($171 more than the above-ground). Oh, did I mention “the best warranty in the industry” is only 2 ½ years, compared to 3 years for the above-ground?
The concrete and rebar pondless waterfall’s rocks are all mortared in place. So anyone, especially small children, can climb on the rocks without them moving, with possible serious injury resulting. With liner pondless waterfalls, rocks will move and shift on their own without help. After a few months, the ugly liner is exposed in the falls and around the pond.
While building the concrete pondless waterfall, design liberties can be taken, such as altering the length, width or shape of the feature. With a liner pondless waterfall, the parameters have already been set by the manufacturer of the kit.
The concrete pondless waterfall can utilize the large, open basin to install an Aquafill automatic water leveling device. In addition, the basin can be made smaller because the space for water is not taken up by rocks as it is in the liner pondless waterfall basin. The only rock that exists is on top of the galvanized or plastic plank cover.
Wow! Concrete waterfalls are stationary, permanent, lifetime life-expectancy, cheaper to build, cheaper to operate, easier to clean, easy to maintain, longer pump warranty, safer and more natural looking! Apples or lemons? You be the judge!
I am sick and tired of these amateurs giving my life-long profession a bad name by their exaggerated, dishonest and sensational claims – only to be backed up by a nebulous warranty and, at best, shoddy workmanship. My disclaimer: There are professionals installing liners that do take measures to prevent rodent or root attacks by placing a think layer of mortar under and over the liner. I found that if you are going to go to all that extra work and expense, just build it with 3500 psi concrete to begin with! The FallGuy
Happy koi, peace and joy … no koi, no joy.
"Never sell you integrity, it is priceless." dch
Koi Pond or Pondless Waterfall: Where Do I Begin?
1.) Have you thought about A Water Feature?-- Is it true that a water feature will add equity to my home? What about a swimming pool? Doesn't a pond require a lot of upkeep? What is the average cost? Do I need a building permit? Do I have to have fish? ...we travel a lot!
American Society of Landscape Architects
Landscape Architects Identify Trends for 2007
WASHINGTON, Dec. 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --"Sustainable design is bigger than ever and homeowners and commercial building owners alike are looking to utilize outdoor spaces even more. The New Year will bring a number of exciting and creative design solutions from landscape architects.
Homeowners are requesting that landscape architects design complete outdoor rooms, such as kitchens and bars, for entertaining. Water features such as koi ponds, waterfalls, and fountains continue to be popular (with no signs of slowing), according to a new survey of leading members of the American Society of Landscape Architects (ASLA)."
The American Nurseryman Association reports that "water features are the fastest growing trend in landscaping since 1990 (2007 should break all records.)"
Regionally, in-ground pools will add about 5 percent to the value of a home in the Northeast, about 6 percent in the Midwest, and 7.5 percent in the Southeast and West. In the Southwest, a swimming pool will add nearly 11 percent to the home's value.
If you add a $35,000 pool to a $300,000 house, you will just barely recover your initial expense. However, you still have the high maintenance cost and you have just limited the future buyers of your home to people who want a pool. Therefore, you have actually reduced the equity in your home. On the other hand, everyone loves a beautiful water feature, young and old!
Therefore, increased equity!
Swimming pools require constant attention and maintenance. Unlike ponds, pool owners cannot rely on the nitrogen cycle to lend a hand at keeping the water healthy. This can only be accomplished by due diligence and a myriad of chemicals.
Unlike a pond, the enjoyment of a pool comes from its use; and for most regions of the country, the climate dictates a very short period of time for pool use. Unless you heat your pool, then your dumping more money in your pool.
A pond requires minimal attention compared to swimming pool. Once a properly constructed pond is established with the right proportion of fish, plants and biological elements, a pond will take care of itself, the rest is enjoyment, year round. You do not need to use a pond as you do a pool, it only need to exist for you to enjoy.
2.) What do I do about the safety of my small children or grandchildren? How big should it be? Is this something I can do on my own or do I need professional help building a pond?
Unlike a swimming pool, ponds can be child proofed, with very little expense. A swimming pool, however, requires special self-closing gates with special latches. Another required code requirement is 95-decibel alarms on all exit doors leading to the back yard.
And for your added peace of mind, you can install an unsightly, removable, lightweight fence that cost hundreds of dollars. Then you can continually agonize over whether you, or someone else, forgot to close the fence gate.
A pond, however, can be filled with large boulders, which can be removed later when the children are grown. Or you can construct a pondless waterfall to begin with. Now you still can enjoy the sight and sound of cascading water without the concerns for safety.
An added advantage of a pondless waterfall is that a pondless waterfall costs less to construct and maintain. A pondless waterfall can be added to your front yard, meet all building code requirements, increase curb appeal, and thereby increase the equity and the resale value of your home.
The "size of the water feature" is a relative term. There are many factors that need to be considered. Far more than can be be discussed in the space I have allotted for this article. I will cover it in my next article.
A few questions to ask yourself:
How big is your yard? Where do you spend the majority of your time? What is your budget? How is the size, shape and topography of your yard related to certain limitations regarding the building codes? Will the existing water table affect your water feature? Does your property currently have adequate drainage? Do you have underground utilities? If so, where are they located? What are the local building codes regarding pond depth? Do you need a building permit, or a licensed contractor?
...just to name a few of the topics covered.
Whether you need a professional contractor is another article. What type of access do you have to your property? Do you want large boulders? If so, is there proper clearance for a crane or Bobcat? How do you find a qualified contractor? How do you go about qualifying them? Are they properly licensed? Insured? Bonded? Workmen's compensation? Liability insurance? Hospitalization? References? Background checks and much, much more. Do your homework and proper research prior to commencement, it could save you thousands of dollars.
3.) What is the single most important first step in building a water feature? What about equipment? Should I get koi fish and a turtle? Where should I place my pond and waterfall? All these questions can be addressed with two words: Plan & Design!
First, decide where you spend most of your leisure activity. ...family room, living room, patio etc. Your waterfall and pond should be in close proximity to that location. Not in the far corner of your property. Sound and visualization are two of the major benefits of a waterfall and pond. These decisions are part of the planning process. Once you decide on these issues, the design process begins.
The best way to approach this phase is to consider a digital design. There are companies that can produce an incredible digitally designed, virtual photo of your backyard, by simply providing them with a digital photo of the area you want the water feature located. You may opt to digitally design your own. There are digital design programs that are simple to master on your own for less than a hundred dollars. Just search the web by typing in digitally designed ponds or waterfalls.
The type of equipment you should use is dependent upon the size of your pond. Your budget is another factor. If you have a small budget, you're looking at designing a small pond. In addition, look at the available options for construction materials.
You can buy a rubber liner kit and install it yourself, or have a rubber-liner-kit-installer-guy install it for you. Bottom line, either way, is there is no guarantee against bucked-toothed critters such as mice, rats, ground squirrels, gophers and ground hogs, from burrowing underneath your expensive rubber liner and chewing a hole in it. Concrete (3500psi) and rebar is the best construction method, and if done correctly, will last for generations. Concrete ponds cost only 10 to 20% more to build than liner ponds.
Your pond will require less maintenance if you allow the nitrogen cycle to do all the work. This means you need to do your part by providing the elements needed for the nitrogen cycle to operate. The fish provide the waste which produces nitrates and ammonia. Certain essential bacteria break down the nitrates and ammonia into safe byproducts used by the plants and other organisms.
Once this process is started, with the aid of a biological filter and possibly an ultraviolet light, future maintenance is minimal and routine. An above ground, high efficiency pump produces more water flow at half the energy and less initial cost than a sump pump used with liner ponds. The savings in electrical costs alone could easily pay for the additional cost of professional concrete construction in less three years.
4.) Where do I find the equipment and construction material I need to complete my project? How do I know what size filter, pump or ultraviolet light I need? If I want to have a concrete pond and waterfall shell, Where do I begin?
The internet is the best place to start looking for equipment. Local pond stores are usually higher priced, because of overhead expense. Most of the internet dealers are knowledgeable on sizing pumps, filters and ultraviolet lights to any size pond or waterfall. However, keep in mind, most on line dealers are trying to push pond liners, sump pumps and pond liner-related filters and accessories.
Look for energy efficient pumps first, and those dealers will carry concrete pond related products such as bottom drains, pool type skimmers and pressured, back-flushable biological bead filters. Also, Liner dealers sell the cheap mechanical autofill devices, because of a high profit margin.
Make sure you invest in a reliable electronic autofill system that is less likely to malfunction such as the levelors and aquafill systems. A stuck float could result in the chlorine poisoning death of all your fish and possibly thousands of dollars in flood damage.
If you act as your own project manager, you can get competitive bids from local concrete contractor for pouring your pond and waterfall shell. Also find a stone mason who will build your waterfall using mortar. With liner ponds and waterfalls, the rocks sit on the liner and can easily move when stepped on by adults or children resulting in serious accidents.
Trying to save hundreds up front, could possibly cost you thousands down the road. You get what you pay for.
Happy koi, peace & joy.
The FallGuy
Pondless waterfall information and kits 
I need a help, too, but I'm in the middle of building one 
The pump size is 1600 gph.
Formula for pondless basin size 
An alternative to the biofalls filter you are using at the top of your pondless waterfalls is a Hydro Vortex filter. The HV filter has a drain on it, the biofalls filter doesn't. The drain makes cleaning the filter much easier for you. Do a Google search on "Hydro Vortex filters" for a retailer or wholesaler that can serve you.
Just another scam 
Linear Mode
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