Trane Models

[TigerDunes]

jtl46

use a Carrier thermidistat with the Carrier non Infinity VS air handler. I prefer matched systems of same brand wherever possible.(Trane and HW have a longstanding relationship and until recently Trane did not offer anything like the IAQ. However, I do not believe the new Trane 900 series stat is compatible with the XL15i condenser. apparently HW wants to keep the IAQ all to themselves).

915437 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BNB006 36000 12.30 15.00 36000 8.50 23000

not a bad choice but certainly not as good as Performance 15 or XL15i.

What is the upcharge to the Performance 15 A and H versions with same air handler and thermidistat?

IMO

[jtl46]

Originally Posted by TigerDunes

jtl46

use a Carrier thermidistat with the Carrier non Infinity VS air handler. I prefer matched systems of same brand wherever possible.(Trane and HW have a longstanding relationship and until recently Trane did not offer anything like the IAQ. However, I do not believe the new Trane 900 series stat is compatible with the XL15i condenser. apparently HW wants to keep the IAQ all to themselves).

915437 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BNB006 36000 12.30 15.00 36000 8.50 23000

not a bad choice but certainly not as good as Performance 15 or XL15i.

What is the upcharge to the Performance 15 A and H versions with same air handler and thermidistat?

IMO

For the dollar differences, $500 to the XL15i and even a little more to go to the 25HPA536A003/FV4BNF005 which still not an Infinity AH I don't see the justification. One year more labor warranty on the XL15i, slightly better EER and HSPF (which is not really important too me). On the Performance 15 the SEER is 16 and the EER is 13, HSPF is worse. The Performance 15 with the Infinity AH is going to be even more money with similar ratings to the non-infinity AH. Maybe I am missing something but there seems to be a point of diminishing returns. Does the thermidistat vary the speed of the blower for removing humidity or just lower the temp by a few degrees? I am still trying to understand the advantages to the variable speed AH. Does it ramp up then when the coil gets nice and cold does it ramp down to save energy and remove humidity. Thanks for your comments.

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by jtl46

.....I am still trying to understand the advantages to the variable speed AH. Does it ramp up then when the coil gets nice and cold does it ramp down to save energy and remove humidity. Thanks for your comments.

Variable speed motors use much less electricity, maintain CFM despite static pressure better than non variable, and they don't have excessive power draw when they start up (no light dimming). If you want better air filtration, running a variable speed fan 24/7 doesn't really cost much more than some cents everyday and it also keeps temps even throughout the house when running 24/7. Running a non-variable blower will cost a lot of $$$ to run 24/7.

[jtl46]

[quote=badtlc;1503109]Variable speed motors use much less electricity, maintain CFM despite static pressure better than non variable, and they don't have excessive power draw when they start up (no light dimming). If you want better air filtration, running a variable speed fan 24/7 doesn't really cost much more than some cents everyday and it also keeps temps even throughout the house when running 24/7. Running a non-variable blower will cost a lot of $$$ to run 24/7.[/QUOTE

Thanks. I guess I am stuck with the Thermidistat for the RH. Would have been nice to be able to have a little more control over the fan speed for RH.

[jtl46]

I think I am really getting jacked around by one of the dealers that I am getting bids from. First I asked for a bid on a Performance 15 system to compare to another bid that I had. I discover that he quoted a Performance 14 with a better AH to get the SEER up to 15. Maybe Ok, but sneaky with out telling me what he was doing. This is the system:
25HPA436/FV4BNB006

I get to thinking about it and find out that for the price it is a good deal. The competitive bid was significantly higher because of the A/H. I tell the dealer I will take it and to fax me the proposal to sign. He had given me the model numbers and price via email.

He calls and says he faxed it but made a change which is to my advantage. He changed the outside unit to a Performance 15 25HPA536 with a FV4ANF003 AH. This is not nearly as good. I could not even find a FV4ANF only a FV4BNF. He gave me a song and dance about how the A/H is too big for the duct system (which he is replacing anyway) and that it was designed for a 5 ton system not a 3 ton like mine. It is all about price. He screwed up. I told him I want the system that I agreed to. He has not responded.

What do you think of that. Also does anyone know the difference between the Carrier A30 and A31 designation on the outside units?

[TigerDunes]

jtl46

either this dealer is unethical, incompetent, or perhaps a combination of the two. I would say they are not to be trusted. I don't think I would do business with this dealer.

I also saw the two designations A30 and A31. I believe the performance/eff numbers were the same. I don't know the difference but would expect it to be one of a minor improvement. Perhaps Carrier experts who see this thread may know the answer.

IMO

[jtl46]

Originally Posted by TigerDunes

jtl46

either this dealer is unethical, incompetent, or perhaps a combination of the two. I would say they are not to be trusted. I don't think I would do business with this dealer.

I also saw the two designations A30 and A31. I believe the performance/eff numbers were the same. I don't know the difference but would expect it to be one of a minor improvement. Perhaps Carrier experts who see this thread may know the answer.

IMO

I totally agree but I think it is the salesman, not the dealer. They have been around for 20 or 30 years and this is a relatively small community. I am thinking about putting a phone call in to the owner and see what he thinks about this.

Maybe this is also an issue. When comparing the AH model numbers I see he usually quotes FV4ANF003 not BNF. This must mean something but I don't know what. I could not find ANF in the AHRI directory. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

[badtlc]

FV4A and FV4B are both Variable speed air handlers with coils and TXV.

FV4BNB006:
- F = fan coil
- V = Variable speed Puron refrig.
- 4 = upflow
- B = Series 'B' (???? no idea)
- N = 208-230V single phase
- B = Moduler with 1" super thick insulation
- 006 = Nominal BTU 36,000-60,000
- 3 numbers after 006 would indicate heat strips.

FV4ANF003:
- F = fan coil
- V = Variable speed Puron refrig.
- 4 = upflow
- A = Series 'A'
- N = 208-230V single phase
- F = Single piece cabinet with 1" super thick insulation
- 003 = Nominal BTU 24,000-42,000
- 3 numbers after 003 would indicate heat strips.


For a 3-ton system it looks like they both will work.

[jtl46]

Originally Posted by badtlc

FV4A and FV4B are both Variable speed air handlers with coils and TXV.

FV4BNB006:
- F = fan coil
- V = Variable speed Puron refrig.
- 4 = upflow
- B = Series 'B' (???? no idea)
- N = 208-230V single phase
- B = Moduler with 1" super thick insulation
- 006 = Nominal BTU 36,000-60,000
- 3 numbers after 006 would indicate heat strips.

FV4ANF003:
- F = fan coil
- V = Variable speed Puron refrig.
- 4 = upflow
- A = Series 'A'
- N = 208-230V single phase
- F = Single piece cabinet with 1" super thick insulation
- 003 = Nominal BTU 24,000-42,000
- 3 numbers after 003 would indicate heat strips.


For a 3-ton system it looks like they both will work.

Thanks!
The salesman does not want to live up to the quote (email, so not signed) on the FV4BNB006 AH. I am pretty sure it is because he screwed up and this is AH is considerable more expensive than the FV4BNF003 or even the 005. Another company told me that particular AH is several hundred dollars more at cost.

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by jtl46

Thanks!
The salesman does not want to live up to the quote (email, so not signed) on the FV4BNB006 AH. I am pretty sure it is because he screwed up and this is AH is considerable more expensive than the FV4BNF003 or even the 005. Another company told me that particular AH is several hundred dollars more at cost.

I'd say you are right. The FV4BNB006 has by far the best performance of any matching unit with that heat pump. The numbers with that air handler are:

EER=12.3
SEER=15
HSPF=8.5

[jtl46]

Originally Posted by badtlc

I'd say you are right. The FV4BNB006 has by far the best performance of any matching unit with that heat pump. The numbers with that air handler are:

EER=12.3
SEER=15
HSPF=8.5

It is the only way to get that HP up to 15 SEER. I asked him give me a quote for a Performance 15 and that is what he quoted even though is it not really a Performance 15 HP. Now he is trying to get out of deal by offering me a Performance 15 HP and lessor AH. He had the audacity to tell me it was a better deal for me.

[jtl46]

Originally Posted by jtl46

It is the only way to get that HP up to 15 SEER. I asked him give me a quote for a Performance 15 and that is what he quoted even though is it not really a Performance 15 HP. Now he is trying to get out of deal by offering me a Performance 15 HP and lessor AH. He had the audacity to tell me it was a better deal for me.

He may redeem himself yet. I finally got a hold of him and he said the original deal was fine if that is what I wanted. I will believe it when I see the signed quote.

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by jtl46

He may redeem himself yet. I finally got a hold of him and he said the original deal was fine if that is what I wanted. I will believe it when I see the signed quote.

15 SEER is 15 SEER. I wouldn't complain too much how they get there as long as they install it well and you feel you got a good deal financially.

[TigerDunes]

jtl46

if you can't trust a dealer, then send them packing.

I have always found that quality, performance, efficiency will long be remembered after price.

Performance 14

3023171 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BN(B,F)003 36000 11.50 14.00 36000 7.70 23000

3023174 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 11.70 14.50 36000 8.20 23200

915437 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BNB006 36000 12.30 15.00 36000 8.50 23000

Performance 15 A version

3017919 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536A30 FV4BN(B,F)003 34800 12.50 15.00 33000 7.80 19200

3017920 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536A30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 16.00 33400 8.20 19400

906535 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536A30 FV4BNB006 36000 13.00 16.00 33600 8.40 19400

Performance 15 H version

1169033 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)003 35400 12.50 15.00 35800 8.60 21600

1169031 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 251 673
1125695 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BNB006 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800

Trane XR14

1382535 Active Systems XR14 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR4036C1 4TEE3F40B1 36800 12.70 15.00 36200 9.00 23400

Trane XL15i

1382162 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F39A1 36000 13.00 15.00 34000 9.00 23600 1
1384031 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F40B1 37400 12.70 15.00 36200 9.00 23400

with the Carrier you do want the tin plated coil(T) and thermidistat. with the Trane, you want the HW VP IAQ.

IMO

[jtl46]

Originally Posted by TigerDunes

jtl46

if you can't trust a dealer, then send them packing.

I have always found that quality, performance, efficiency will long be remembered after price.

Performance 14

3023171 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BN(B,F)003 36000 11.50 14.00 36000 7.70 23000

3023174 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 11.70 14.50 36000 8.20 23200

915437 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 14 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA436A30 FV4BNB006 36000 12.30 15.00 36000 8.50 23000

Performance 15 A version

3017919 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536A30 FV4BN(B,F)003 34800 12.50 15.00 33000 7.80 19200

3017920 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536A30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 16.00 33400 8.20 19400

906535 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536A30 FV4BNB006 36000 13.00 16.00 33600 8.40 19400

Performance 15 H version

1169033 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)003 35400 12.50 15.00 35800 8.60 21600

1169031 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 251 673
1125695 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BNB006 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800

Trane XR14

1382535 Active Systems XR14 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR4036C1 4TEE3F40B1 36800 12.70 15.00 36200 9.00 23400

Trane XL15i

1382162 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F39A1 36000 13.00 15.00 34000 9.00 23600 1
1384031 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F40B1 37400 12.70 15.00 36200 9.00 23400

with the Carrier you do want the tin plated coil(T) and thermidistat. with the Trane, you want the HW VP IAQ.

IMO

Tiger, thanks a lot for all of your help and advice. I think everything is fine with the dealer. I perhaps jumped to some conclusions, but after speaking to the sales person he was more than willing to go with the original deal.

[jtl46]

FWIW I ended up getting a Carrier Performance 15 25HPA536A with a FV4BNB006 AH. It cost me about $6200 which includes replacing all of the ducts. They started today and got just about everything torn out and the condenser installed with the new line set. After they left I took a hands and knee tour of the attic and found they still have not removed all of the old return ducts, which I expect them to do. They have also not removed all of the old nasty insulation from the supply boots nor have they sealed the space where they enter the ceiling. Must do that and re insulate the boots. Maybe they intend to do that since they have not even connected the suppy lines or cut in the new returns. Pays to be on site and willing to be an attic rat.