is time of day metering of electricity right for me? (long)

[luckydriver]

Just called my electric company. They said i pay 10 cents now. Under time of day it would be 13.5 cents Mon-Fri from 9am to 9pm and 7 cents all other times. Free new meter and my customer charge goes from 8 to 11 bucks a month. If i decide I hate it, they just change the rate in the computer back to 10 cents and no penalties.

Also note in 2011 we lose rate caps and there are predictions of 30-50% hikes. I've begun a voluntary 7.5% interest rate savings account putting 10% more than my monthly bill in their account

So can you think of anything below here that i'm forgetting to take into account?

I"m alone so during the day there is no use but fridge, entertainment unit, and heat in winter (brand new low mass with indirect just installed dec 08). I do have a spa and would adjust filtering times to non peak. I would also do dishes off peak and washer and dryer are 100% done only on weekends. House has window AC units only turned on when I'm home.

I dug out my electric bills but am missing a lot unfortunately. But i got the spa in 2004 so here are some before and after readings. Basically pay out the butt to heat in winter and get the 'break' in summer. I have a lot more readings, just didnt want to overload the board. Note the 2009 rates are for 1 person but all other rates are for 2 with one being home disabled (ie high tv use)

1/03 506 kwh 32F daily 17kwh
1/06 1340 kwh 36F daily 42kwh
1/09 1289 kwh 31F daily 43kwh

3/03 525 kwh 28F daily 18kwh
3/06 1108 kwh 36F daily 38kwh
3/09 1028 kwh 36F daily 32kwh

5/03 464 kwh 57F daily 16kwh
5/06 805 kwh 58F daily 26kwh

7/03 790 kwh 73F daily 26kwh
7/06 999 kwh 74F daily 33kwh

11/02 438kwh 45F daily 14kwh
11/06 945kwh 48F daily 32kwh
11/07 998kwh 52F daily 32 kwh

Otherwise I have a killawatt and measured over the course of 2 hours that my entire entertainment center runs 200 watts when the tv is off and 400 when the crt is on (ie the 200 will be 'fixed').

Fridge was tested for 123 hours and was 165 watts and total yearly cost of $100

My PC setup was runs 239 watts when it's all turned on and then i let the meter run 409 hours to get an 'average' use of $72 a year. I turn it off when not in use but it does run most all days on weekends, something i can cut out myself.

I just cant think of any other 'big' energy hogs other than what I've posted here. Can you thing of examples i may have missed and give your opinion if time of day seems right for me?



PS if anyone wants to go further into detail and solve this issue it would be appreciated.

with 2 people and one home all day:

I measured the tv alone for 2 hours and it said 200 watts while on, .46 a day, 3.26 a week, 14/mo and $170 a year to run. I guess this assumes the tv on 24/7?

Then running everything on my entertainment system thru the UPS i ran 216 hours and got 400 watts while tv turned on (200 while off) and costs of .73 day, 5.17 week, 22.16 month, 269 a year.

Can i assume the $170 for the tv was biased because i only ran it 2 hours alone vs 216 hours of 'total entertainment center' usage. So that the 269 a year would be a more reliable number? (keep in mind now that 2nd person is not here, i'm cutting down on at least 8-9 hours of tv a day)

[LucHt]

I used an energy meter to measure all the appliances that use lots of electricity. Then considered for which I could shift the usage to the evening or week-end. I would save about 5% in my case but decided that it wasn't worthwile because i'd have to change from doing things when it suits me to doing things when it was cheapest. I'd only do that if it brought more savings than that.

[luckydriver]

how can i measure my spa, oven and boiler? cant do much about the boiler but if i could rule it out and subtract it from the overall calculation, it would help

[Bud9051]

Hi lucky, You'll need a meter to read 220. Mine uses a current probe I connect at the electrical panel. Create a chart to list every electrical device you have. Assign a measured or estimated power use to each one. See how close it comes to actual, then adjust the numbers as needed to make your list and actual agree. Check with your power co to see if they loan a power meter to check appliances where you estimated. If you can't find one for free, check the rental places.

Also, start reading about credits for purchasing energy efficient appliances and estimate your savings to investment for buying some new stuff. Anything that pays back in 5 years or less is a no brainer must. 5 to 10 years is still a good investment. Try putting your money in a bank and getting 10%.

Let us know how you do,
Bud

PS as for the off peak meter, I tried it many years ago and went crazy with the shift in my routine. But that's me. If you cam make it work, it will save. However, identifying and reducing your daily power use will work 24/7.

[luckydriver]

I did call the company and asked if they would even sell me anything that would monitor my usage and she said go to home depot Probes and panels sound scary to me..i dont do electric well so stay away from what i dont know. It's safer. Plus i have 2 - 100 panels, not one big panel. Everyone says it's a weird setup. I know in my boiler thread on this site where i posted pics you can see it if you are interested.

Ill just have to use my killawatt data and maybe back into the spa usage. I expect it to cost more but until just recently when i charted my data, i had no idea i almost doubled my bill! And during shoulder months i still find it hard to believe i'm still paying double what i used to. ie my May readings.

but if the spa is using 1/2 my juice, then moving that filtering and heating to the discount period of 7 cents vs the 10 i'm paying now, as much as i can, will save me huge $$$

of course contrarily if it runs more during the peak hours, i could be sunk paying 13 cents. This is why i want to really try to see how much the spa uses. Can i stand outside at my meter and figure that out while someone turns it on and off lol?

[Gunguy45]

You can get a rough estimate of usage by determining the HP of the motors for the pumps, the wattage of the heater and the estimated amount of running time during filtering and usage. You can also save by using the setting that will only maintain the temp during the filtering periods if you aren't already.

They make clamp on ammeters that you can use to tell the actual draw when things are turned on, then its simple to convert to watts. Pretty safe to use as long as you aren't prone to falling forward into energized connections.

Just a few thoughts....didn't try to re-answer things already addressed.

[classicsat]

Does the entertainment setup need to draw 200W when not used?
Mine draws only 100 or so "off" (2 satellite receivers, one TiVo, A/V switch, plus TV and stereo in Standby, a few watts apiece). Things that don't need power can be turned off with a power strip.

If the meter is an electronic smart meter, your utility may have the option to read it from a website.

You can likley go out an manually time the disc going around to see how much power you are using.

[ecman51`]

Luckydriver. I think it's no brainer you will save, and big. Your weekends are on low rate also. That is a big plus! (Almost too good to be true!!) You can enjoy your a/c at 7¢ on weekends, when you are off work and home!

For heat, you can beat natural gas prices by turning heat down to 55 and leave it there and when you are on the low rate, you can use radiant space heater pointed at you(radiant is the best, as you are not dealing with wind chill from the blower type space heater) when watching tv before you go to bed. (My radiant heater showed about 650 degrees on my infrarend thermometer, and the blower type ceramic heater only said over 200 degrees, for the same 1500 watt output.)

(Not advised to run space heater while sleeping, unfortunately. I'd imagine though that if you really wanted to have electric heat at night in your bedroom so you can leave the rest of the house at low temp, that an all metal one, as opposed to the plastic housing ones they have today) could be used and set it on one of those asbestos type panels people set their oil or wood burning stoves on. And do not use extension cord, - or, if you must - use 12 or 14 gauge size one if you have to and keep it off of combustible material, even if it takes rewiring it through conduit or buying enough of that asbestos lined paneling to lay cord on. After all, people have electric baseboard heaters throughout homes and apts., and that is their only source of heat. We could maybe run this whole idea past the guys in the elctrical forum here, to get the best ideas for setting up electric heat in a room that can be left on unattended, the way electric baseboard heaters have to be, when that is the abode's sole source of heat.

I am running right now about 7:1 ratio of cheap rate to expensive rate, on my time of use meter I had installed last winter. I was 9:1 ratio this winter!!! Wow. I saved 30-37% on overall energy costs!! Even my fridge ran less because my house was cooler while gone. I leave off the water heater circuit breaker when on-peak.

My Xcel Energy rate is about 5¢ off-peak rate and 18¢ on peak rate - while everyone else pays 9.5¢ per kwh on straight rate. You can see how they 'get you' about 2¢ per kwh if you avg. the on peak and off peak and divide by 2 and compare to straight rate. But I soooo overexceed the average, that I save huge. I use only the water heater during off-peak and same with cooking and clothes washing/drying. And even if I bump up the natural gas furnace some, the blower at night and on weekends is off-peak.

I wish I had thought about doing this a long time ago. I think maybe the power companies may wise up if enough people get in on this. Their mistake is they are not really rewarding people who try to use less than they used to, as IMO, they should be. With someone like me, as a classic case, I never changed my useage lifestyle!, and simply got a big price break for free! It is almost unbelievable at their corporate meetings that they never thought of that. Why would they want to give people a deal, and reduce their (power company's)income, if people do not switch their useage habits to off-peak? I never really changed. I was always using way more off-peak!

My plan is somewhat better than yours though in the fact my on-peak goes from 7 -7. I like that better for me than 9-9. If I remember correctly though, Xcel told me I had a choice of picking from a couple or few on-peak/off-peak time frames. I chose that one. You might look into that with your company.

Another trick I invented this early spring: I also have a ceramic elctric space heater that blows. I point that into my furnace blower and it raises my register output to 87-90 degrees!, and I can can warm up or maintain house temp when say it is in the 40's outside! I have raised the house temp from say low 70's to mid-70's where I like it.

As a side note: Note that you can save from running a/c compressor, on all but extremely sustained periods of hottest days, if you have a large cool 60 degree basement, like you can find in upper midwest, and run air handler (or furnace)blower with door open to suck in basement air and blow it out the registers. I am doing that at my bosses house, and it works. He has an enormous basement. And even after hours of run time, the temp does not even warm up in the basement. Everything I do for him, I save him money.

Back to topic: Unfortunately, this is most odd and will cause me to rethink my heating strategies - as unbelievable as this sounds: I see on a natural gas bill at a facility I maintain the mechanicals on, that the natural gas rate dropped to 46¢ per therm!! It was over a $1! I gotta look into this to make sure this was not a mistake. But I did hear that ng rates were expected to come down. But to THAT level? At that rate, it will not help me to do that electric heater blowing into the furnace trick, or any space ehater running methods. But, now with summer fast approaching, all this will be moot anyway, until next heating season, and then at that time I will figure out how to handle it based on rates then.

[luckydriver]

Originally Posted by Gunguy45

You can get a rough estimate of usage by determining the HP of the motors for the pumps, the wattage of the heater and the estimated amount of running time during filtering and usage. You can also save by using the setting that will only maintain the temp during the filtering periods if you aren't already.

They make clamp on ammeters that you can use to tell the actual draw when things are turned on, then its simple to convert to watts. Pretty safe to use as long as you aren't prone to falling forward into energized connections.

Just a few thoughts....didn't try to re-answer things already addressed.

I checked my manual, the spa heater is 5500 watts! The motors appear to be 2 or 3hp. Is there any way i can tell what the motors watts is by the HP?

so for 5500 at 10 cents i guess that's 55 cents per hour I run the heater, correct? I just did kick the filter times back to 2 hours per day and heater only will turn on at that time. I do have a new spa cover but cant put it on now as i'm having other construction done to the house and dont wanna risk damage/dust etc

you say about falling into connections, thats me I think ill stay away for now, my guess is the heater is using most of the juice but id like ot know how much the pumps use if there's any way to tell. I think there are 2 if not 3 pumps

[luckydriver]

Originally Posted by classicsat

Does the entertainment setup need to draw 200W when not used?
Mine draws only 100 or so "off" (2 satellite receivers, one TiVo, A/V switch, plus TV and stereo in Standby, a few watts apiece). Things that don't need power can be turned off with a power strip.

If the meter is an electronic smart meter, your utility may have the option to read it from a website.

You can likley go out an manually time the disc going around to see how much power you are using.

i do have a power squid but never 'hooked it up' because i have so much spaghetti being there it's nuts. once I start my painting project all will be moved and i can install it.

tons of things using the 200 watts...2 tivos, video switches, amps etc etc. I never segregated other than 'all' entertainment center vs all except for tv so dont know what components suck up what from that 200. I guess each tivo is 40-50 so those all stay on. But all the switches and amps can be killed of course. Ill be daisy chaining like crazy, already have everything plugged into a belkin 1100va.

[luckydriver]

Originally Posted by ecman51`

I am running right now about 7:1 ratio of cheap rate to expensive rate, on my time of use meter I had installed last winter. I was 9:1 ratio this winter!!! Wow. I saved 30-37% on overall energy costs!! Even my fridge ran less because my house was cooler while gone. I leave off the water heater circuit breaker when on-peak.

.

so it sounds like i''ll be able to easily track which time and which rate i have..sounds good

I wish it was 7 to 7, id save much more then! And regarding the heat i have a new boiler with indirect so that's gonna save me a lot too. The indirect doesnt even fire some days except after i shower. It' s great

I cant setback much in winter, it takes hours to recover. I'm 65-67 normally and did seal up a lot of air leaks after my energy audit. Much warmer in house last winter.

also i have thru the wall AC units which are only used in the room i'm in so i'm saving vs people that have central air. I think those people are gonna be worse off than me when our bills go up 50%! they 'have to' cool down their whole house, i dont.

[Gunguy45]

I'm not sure if this is correct or not....I got it here..... Online Conversion - Power Conversion . 2HP = 1492W which at 240V would equal 6.22 A....so maybe thats about right. Of course that would be when its are running at hi speed, regular filter mode they normally just run 1 pump at low speed.

So say yer in the spa with both pumps on high and the heater on...6.22+6.22+22.2= 35.35A. I'd guess thats about right...spa is probably on a 40A breaker?

If those numbers are right..then you'd be pulling about 8500W during use..much less when just in filter mode since your heater wouldn't be on the whole time and the pumps would be drawing less. I think thats how the spa makers advertise $1 a day to operate...its as long as you don't actually use it...lol

I've seen the Pro's figure it out using a formula...

[luckydriver]

Originally Posted by Gunguy45

I'm not sure if this is correct or not....I got it here..... Online Conversion - Power Conversion . 2HP = 1492W which at 240V would equal 6.22 A....so maybe thats about right. Of course that would be when its are running at hi speed, regular filter mode they normally just run 1 pump at low speed.

So say yer in the spa with both pumps on high and the heater on...6.22+6.22+22.2= 35.35A. I'd guess thats about right...spa is probably on a 40A breaker?

If those numbers are right..then you'd be pulling about 8500W during use..much less when just in filter mode since your heater wouldn't be on the whole time and the pumps would be drawing less. I think thats how the spa makers advertise $1 a day to operate...its as long as you don't actually use it...lol

I've seen the Pro's figure it out using a formula...

i think it's a 40A...they joined 4 smaller breakers into one big one and thats on a single switch now. I had no idea motors were 1500..wow. And yes i'm glad it's just one low motor when it filters or heats..so unless i'm in it with it on, (not often), it's not tooooo bad. And i almost never run on HI even when i'm in it.

but 55 cents an hour to heat..ouch...glad i got my new cover

[ecman51`]

Make sure you find out from power company that you are "off peak" from 9 PM Friday up til 9 AM Monday morning. And if this applies to the whole year. If so, that will mean a lot to you right there, and can be figured into your calculations, as to how worth it this is.

As far as your house taking hours to recover for heat - well, you said you use room a/c's, and that you have an advantage over people who have central air, especially if power rates go way up. The same reasoning then can be applied for heating. Why NOT let the rest of the house stay cooler while you use electric space heater in room you are in? As I said in an earlier post -if the room is cool (say around 60), you are better off with a quartz radiant heater with no blower, set a number of feet away and towards you, to keep you warm. You could also run the furnace up to near desireable temp, but then back off the stat and allow the radiant heater to help sustain the heat.

But if the power rates go way up, let's say -and natural gas (NG) actually comes down - then - a person is going to have to do some serious figuring with the formulas to see what a person should heat with.

I forgot, do to my busy workload -today I wanted to call my NG supplier to see what the current rate is after I recently discovered the NG price plummeted - I mean really plummeted on a gas bill at a facility I work at. It suddenly went from being like around $1 per therm to only 46¢ a therm!! I want to find out if they can offer any guesses as to what the prices might be this winter, barring anything unforseen.

[luckydriver]

FYI i use oil. And yes i'm sure it's weekends are all offpeak , i asked.

and i did the space heater thing when they were installing the boiler for 2 days. so i know what a december day is like with 60 in the house and just my oil radiators on. And i dont like it. So now that i have a super efficient new boiler/indirect, i dont mind spending to keep it at least 65 in here. Because, after all, i'm saving Plus i sealed up the house and still will be sealing it up more this year.

but just for bedroom i had the door closed and it got to 70 in there overnight, i had no idea woudl get so high but thats a closed door thing with the oil unit going. Powerful little bugger

Plus in talking with the boiler forum guys, they said it's foolish to knock down my boiler more than 2-3 degrees and even my installer said that. All agree just pick a temp and stick 2 degrees of it.

I just have to face that the spa is 1/2 my bill if i wanna keep it hopefully these new settings and my new cover will help a lot

[ecman51`]

Keep us updated on what you do, and if you do it, what all you are doing to save and what kind of ratio you are running at say compared to me.

I checked today and I was about 5+:1 on the last bill I just opened up, and paid this morning. I saved over $12 compared to the flat rate. Nothing huge -but heh -why throw any money away right?

At 9-9 and off peak weekends, this means that out of a 168 hour week, you are off peak 9pm F - 9am M = 60 hours. Then from 9pm M - 9am Tu = 12 hours. Then from 9 pm Tu -9 am W = 12 hours. Then from 9 pm W -9 am Th = 12 hours. Then from 9 pm Th - 9am F = 12 hours.

Total = 108 off-peak; compared to only 60 on-peak! How can one go wrong? This plan could work out for many people with that kind of lopsidedness away from 50:50. This means you are off-peak for 64% and 36 % on-peak.

[luckydriver]

update:

called again to confirm info and glad i did..unsure if rates went up since then or the other woman just rounded differently but this is what i was told today (differs slightly from OP)

the time changes with DST...so in fall the on peak is 8am to 8pm weekdays and come spring when clocks change it's 9am to 9pm. nights/weekends are off peak

She said it's about 14 cents peak and 7.5 off peak and now i pay about 11. She asked if i think i do 70% off peak use and I said i'm sure i can shift it to that.

$3 more a month charge but would revert back if i decided to cancel and also they dont have remote reading for all meters yet, just homes they cant get into.

as an aside, about 1-2 months ago i changed my spa settings since i was having work done on the house and knew i couldnt use it. set it to 80 and only to heat during the filter cycles...recent results are amazing:

date amount kwh $/kwh

3/17/2009 112.09 a 1028 0.109036965
4/16/2009 96.93 a 877 0.110524515
5/15/2009 98.85 e 896 0.110323661
6/16/2009 53.34 a 427 0.124918033

if you figure the estimated month in there that's an average of 76 bucks over the 2 recent months. And I havent had a 53 dollar bill in over 3 years lol.

also what is amazing is since the work was being done on the house, i took 2 solid weeks off and used much more water and electricity cleaning up etc. So still a good deal.

[ecman51`]

Ahhhh. So that explains when I checked my useage on my new digital time of use meter, that I was still off peak at 8 am, rather than starting on-peak at 7 am. Ah haaaa......the daylight savings time switch. Thanks.

But last night I laughed all the way to the bank. I was working and got home at about 7 pm. I ran my a/c all thru the night for about 5¢/kwh. Had to get up at 5 am and shut it off though, as I was sleeping on the covers, and I woke up from freezing!

It sounds like your new meter is paying off for you, like with me?

I'm actually thinking that since weekends are off-peak, that more people might find that it could be to their benefit to do some math to see if the switch might pay off for them. If the weekends say were NOT off peak, and you had to pay a 'penalty' if you merely had a 50/50 split between on-peak and off-peak, then it would not be worth it, obviously. But since the weekend is off peak, that makes the total useage hours between off peak and on-peak, for the week, to heavily favor the off-peak, even with a 50/50 split. It all then depends on the monthly surcharge or kwh penalty your poco uses.

For me, I have previously stated that it is a 2¢/kwh 'penalty', that you have to do the math on, to see if the plan will work for you.

[luckydriver]

sounds like they didnt tell you the full story either about DST. And i dont have my meter yet, should be here in the next few weeks they said. But i'm happy to learn my new spa setting saving me money even at my current rate of 11 cents. I can save a ton in summer then keep it hot in winter. It's easy to get up to temp in summer but in winter, if i keep it at 90 then want it to go to 100, it takes at least 4 hours for that much a jump, which makes impulsive spa dips impossible

regarding what families may not be smart to use this, i'd say anyone that has a member home during weekdays or is forced to keep the washer/dryer going during the week may find this more expensive. Also anyone who insists on keeping a house cool during the day while they are away will get a big surprise when the bill comes. But if they have auto setback thermostats and can wait until weekends to dry clothes, they may save.

I do realize even during the week ill have 4-5 hours of peak weekday evenings but thats a small price to pay for the 3.5 cents ill save off peak (ie keeping on my AC all night or weekends when i'm home)

[ecman51`]

Let us know what you DO save. Simply calculate your kwh both ways - on/off peak - and also what you WOULD have paid on the flat rate plan. Best wishes.

[luckydriver]

I just remembered something else that may have caused my bill to be so low. For the past month or so i had no outside low voltage lights on. I'm assuming the 2 strings I had were about 200 watts so them being off probably saved me a bunch of $$ too.

[luckydriver]

this morning I noticed a tag showing that they replaced the meter yesterday. And there's a tag on there for the meter reader to rip off when he comes. Why is that?

looks ez enough to read

01 7/1/09
02 5:53:40 (i read this at 650am so i guess that's the DST effect and that clock itself will never change)

05 00007 a
07 00005 b

so i hope 'a' is night and 'b' is daytime. I dont know when they installed this yesterday though so that may affect it. But as i stated before i have no outdoor lights on the past 2 months so my night use should be even lower. And the spa is only set to go on between 9pm and 7 am. Now i guess i need to wait 2 full billing cycles to get a true savings figure. Of course i'll probably be out there every few days taking readings since it's so easy lol

so why didnt i lose power anyway? none of my clocks were blinking and i thought for sure when you took a meter out you lost power. And there is some weird connector on the front so i guess they read it with some kind of sensor..now if only they could get remote sensing and stay out of my yard!

edit: so am i paying for the power to keep the LEDs going on the meter or is that free?

[ecman51`]

On mine, I believe on-peak is listed first, and off-peak is second. I would think they would list day first and night second. I also have a third reading which is the addition of the two figures.

When I check out my meter, I will post it here.

Were you running any a/c?

[luckydriver]

no AC during the day...just a 200 watt entertainment system - 400 when tv on- (looking to reduce that in the near future with my powersquid as only the tivos need juice 24/7)...fridge (killawatt tested for 165 watts and run for 123 hours and worked out to $8.23 a month)...thermostat controlled attic fan, LED clocks, water softener timer, water cooler($10 a year), boiler wont fire all day for indirect hot water (yippee) and spa is only set to turn on on the off peak. I never really tried to add up individual items though, i guess i should do that.

so 7000 watts (that is 7 kwh right?) for peak the first day isnt awful or anything, but i'd feel better if i knew where it all went.

my estimate for on peak is as follows:

200 watts entertainment x 12 hours = 2400
200 watt tv x 5 hours = 1000
even if fridge ran 12 hours straight 165 x 12= 1980 but thats likely 1/2 that number

which brings us to 5380 so i'm missing about 1600. maybe the attic fan uses a lot, i really have no idea but these days could easily be on 9 hours. Maybe i did use the window unit AC while watching tv a bit on that day now that i think about it..thats 1000/hr while it's on so that would easily account for a few hours.

[ecman51`]

Well ---the time you wash and dry clothes off-peak and same for spa or showering, and vacuum your house, and maybe only turn on your water heater off peak just before you use it(I do that), and cook meals, and watch movies into the wee night-time hours/listen to stereo in evening and all weekend long, and run a/c when you are home in the evening and weekends (ahhhh---isn't that nice to know that you will be paying way less than your neighbors during the entire weekend?) ---you are bound to save.

[ecman51`]

Here is my latest bill I just got out of the mailbox this morning: On-peak 73 (approx. 18.6¢ avg. winter and summer rate); off-peak 405 (5¢ both winter and summer rate) = $13.58 + $20.25 = 33.83 total. If I was on flat regular rate it would have been 478 X (approx.).095 = $45.41. So I saved $11.58 for really not doing anything different than what I was, before I switched meters.

The winter was when I was really saving when NG was well over $1 per therm and I was turning heat down in house and using electric space heater next to me, on off-peak. But this year may be different. I may use more gas, because now the NG rate has come way down. WAY down. In fact that had to get public utility commission permission in order to LOWER their rate (you heard right) by 2.2% and will be doing this, they said, every month through the summer. !! Hopefully this carries over into this winter.

[luckydriver]

i'm pretty sure B is my off peak ....checked this morning and A was 33 and B was 50

[ecman51`]

Hopefully you'll do all you can to shift most useage to off-peak. That is why they started that program. Not to give price breaks to someone like me, who was already using way more off-peak.

Coming up, when I get some spare time, I want to figure out how much of a shift to off-peak is required, with my plan, to make someone just break even.

As you may have noticed, they(Xcel Energy) are now charging yet another penny penalty for using on-peak. That means that if their normal rate is 9.5¢, that now if I average the 19¢ on-peak(it was 18¢) and 5¢ off peak rates together = 24¢, meaning avg. is 12¢, meaning then I would be penalized 2.5¢/kwh (over people on the reg. plan), if a I simply used a 50/50 mix of on-peak and off-peak. So I want to figure out how much more kwh I have to use towards the off-peak, just for someone to break even. Unless someone else here that might be bored, wants to have a go at the math.

The reason I want to find this out is when I discuss the positive and negative of the plan with others, I can then make it more clear if the plan might work for them or not. Obviously the plan works for me since I have such a huge disparity between on and off-peak.

[luckydriver]

i wish the forum had code but it doesnt..so here's the results in squished form from my first full week. Since it's a 3 dollar a month extra fee, all savings from this point on are mine. Actually my cutoff is the 15th of each month so ill have a partial bill then.

kwh rate total

7/7/2009
47 0.14 $6.58 new
85 0.075 $6.38 new
132 $12.96

132 0.12 $15.84 old rate
$2.89 savings

projected out that's only 12 bucks a month..i thought it would be more but hey thats something. in a few months when i put back my outdoor lights on, the savings will increase of course. the more you use off peak, the more you save

[ecman51`]

Originally Posted by luckydriver

projected out that's only 12 bucks a month..i thought it would be more but hey thats something. in a few months when i put back my outdoor lights on, the savings will increase of course. the more you use off peak, the more you save

That's funny. I've of that myself. Yes rack up hundreds of kilowatts at night and on weekends. Then tell everyone how much you have 'saved'.

BTW, I am on summer rates I just learned. And other people's summer rates are not 9.5¢/kwh now, it is 10.5¢ now. So that means I am saving even more, in realtion to them, or my old standard plan. That makes sense to me now since I learned my on-peak went up a penny.

[ecman51`]

And $12 out of an approx. $40 (give or take some) useage amount, percentage wise is pretty good, at least in my case.

Even though $12 is not going to make or break me, I still smile because this is like finding free money on the sidewalk. And in the winter, I save more with the space heater system I was doing. Unless of course, this coming winter, the bottom stays dropped out of the natural gas prices, and ---did you hear where a fellow member posted that his NG rates are only like 46¢ right now? That is bigtime cheap! I think my last bill was only 60-some ¢ ---still cheap. I can't remember it that low in years and years and years. Considering inflation, it means it is at an all time recent low, actually.

[furd]

You guys are making me cry, almost. Even though I am retired and home most of the time I suspect I could save if my utility offered off-peak metering. The last few nights I haven't even gone to bed until 4AM. Still, with my electricity averaging about 8 cents per kwh I'm already making a killing compared to your rates.

Here is a tip when figuring the watts on an electric motor; while 746 watts is equal to one electrical horsepower no motor operates at 100% efficiency. Furthermore, if the motor is lightly loaded (a one horsepower motor only delivering 1/2 horsepower to the connected load) the efficiency drops rapidly. For these reasons I like to use a figure of 1,000 watts (one kilowatt) per horsepower when I try to figure consumption.

[ecman51`]

I guess that do not need to offer it to you. They must have plenty of plants and do not have to worry about peak use?, maybe due to how it constantly rains where you are , they have dams at every corner, like we have bars at every corner here, to generate power?

If our posts make you cry, what about -hey, was that you that said you get natural gas for like 46¢, or is that someone else?

Makes sense about the wattage use on motors. I plan to actually check this out sometime using my ammeter, as I too knew that it was not bound to be 746 watts per horsepower, but have wondered what it is in actual application. I could also similarly test the 5 hp motors of the air handlers out where I help them out with the mechanicals, as they are each on their own disconnect that I could check.

[furd]

It is up to the utility whether or not they want to offer off-peak metering and power. My utility is a Public Utility District (PUD) rather than investor-owned so they are actually prohibited from making a profit. There may also be some requirements from our state utilities regulators concerning off-peak metering.

We don't have dams and powerplants on every corner and we certainly do have issues concerning peak demands. There have even been dams removed to allow some rivers to return to their natural state. Getting new powerplants licensed is as difficult here as anywhere else in the county. And while the "fuel" in hydroelectric plants is free you can be in a world of hurt when you have dry years, also known as years with minimal snowpack. See, it isn't the rain in the valleys that give us our low-cost power but melting snow in the mountains. If it doesn't snow we have problems.


On the motor issue...be careful with that ammeter because all it will measure is "apparent power". To measure motor loads you really need to use a wattmeter that simultaneously measures the amperage and voltage and then calculates watts. It's a kind of complicated issue involving power factor and I don't really understand it myself, that's why I just use the 1 kw per horsepower figure as an average.

No, it wasn't me that posted about 46 cent natural gas, I posted in that thread that my gas was still about a buck a therm.

[ecman51`]

I may not even mess with the ammeter, since I am dealing with 440 back there. Strange things can happen.

I happened to be back there today jumping up and down off those units, like monkey, checking to see how they were staging, and /or if there were other issues not allowing 1 or 2 of the 4 compressors or fans to come on.

It was about 90 in the shade and very hot back there. (115 down in my car vent). I gunned the building at 134F, and the ground I was walking on was 112. I stole (not really) 2 big glasses of lemonade, then got a gut ache right after downing them. Beautiful day though. Not complaining, because I am starting to sort of tire of winter. Last winter I was shoveling out 2 feet deep of snow there in the dumpster/recycling dumpster cage.

[furd]

Aww, I ainta skeered of 480, it was that 4160 motor I was workin' on that gave me the willies!

[ecman51`]

Getting a little off the track here, but, hey, it's Friday. Please do not leave us hanging. Are you talking voltage numbers here?, or this number to a freight train engine?

[furd]

Yep, voltages. I never worked on the 4160 volt part but I did have to work in the "medium voltage" compartment while installing a motor winding temperature indicator and alarm system. Yes, I did the proper lockout/tag out procedure.

[luckydriver]

at the end of 15 days

7/15/2009
100 0.14 $14.00 new
172 0.075 $12.90 new
272 $26.90

272 0.12 $32.64 old rate
$5.74 savings

Ok so i paid for my 3 dollar service charge and made 3 bucks lol. I guess this wont be as dramatic as i thought it would be but any savings beyond the service charge is gravy.

I think i need to hook up my old lights again and crank up the spa so i can save more lol

[ecman51`]

Have you tried keeping your water heater turned off and only turn it on say 1/2 hour (off-peak of course) before you plan to use it?

Are you doing as much stuff as you can off-peak, without doing it on-peak?

I looked at my meter yesterday and my total off-peak to total useage is about 1/7.5th!

Also, even though I know you are joking - it is easier to waste electricity, knowing that it is cheaper off-peak.