Kitchen Electrical Problem (Pics included)

[lbd301]

Hello Electrical Experts!

I was posting in another part of the forum about my kitchen and how DH & I decided to open the soffit and pull everything apart, so that we can move the cabinets up higher.

Please see pics here: Kitchen - What have we got ourselves into?

Right now, the problem is that DH added a new outlet, the single one on the left side. He also updated the double outlet on the right with GFCIs. As of this AM, only the new outlet and the 2 outlets on the right side of the double outlet are working.

When DH first started looking at it all, he realized that they ("they" being whoever originally did the electric) had the wires coming up from the basement, by the laundry room, into the one outlet, into the other outlet, back down, and back up to run over to the fridge. He said they were using it as a junction box. So he added a new box, I guess to use as a junction, then rewired everything. I'm not sure if he knows why the other 2 outlets aren't working now. He's not an electrician, he's an office worker with a little knowledge about a lot of stuff.

[Bill190]

My, my, my! Where to begin?

Well....

#1. You need to get an electrical permit before doing this type of work ESPECIALLY if you are not sure of what you are doing. With this an experienced electrician will look over the work to be sure it is installed to electrical codes, will be safe to use, and also will be something you can "live with" - that being the wiring will be designed at a minimum to not trip breakers because circuits are overloaded because too many things are on that circuit.

#2. If you don't know how to do something right, you can avoid a lot of problems by hiring an expert. Or first learning how to do it right and having an expert check your work to be sure it is OK.

#3. There are a lot of "electricity hogs" around a house and many of them are located in a kitchen. Modern electrical design is that you run new separate 12 gauge wires to these things and place them on their own 20 amp circuits. Then your circuits don't get overloaded. Things like the refrigerator, microwave, garbage disposal, dishwasher, washer, etc. Then there are counter top things in a kitchen which use a lot of electricity. These should be separate 20 amp GFCI circuits (more than one in my opinion) so you can run several power hogs like a deep fryer, hot plate, electric griddle, etc. (Things which get hot use a lot of electricity!)

#4. You are going to use these outlets and electricity everyday of your lives. Everything is torn apart now. So why not call an electrician and have separate wires/circuits run to the "power hogs" and do this right? I would think that your daily lives would be much more pleasant and stress free if everything worked properly and you didn't have breakers tripping frequently. And you had all the outlets you will ever need right where you need them.

It is not unusual for a new modern kitchen to have 8 different circuits to this and that!

[lbd301]

Bill, thanks for the input. I checked with the town and we are not required to obtain a permit for what we're doing. This was supposed to be a simple remove the soffit, move the cabinets up, and while you're at it, put a new outlet in (which he's done many times before).

When we had the home inspection before moving in last year, i remember they commented that the electrical box looked really good, there was plenty to go around. We have noticed that if we run the microwave, toaster oven and fryer at the same time, we blow a fuse. The microwave is plugged into another outlet on the other side of the kitchen, but apparently on the same circuit.

If DH has not figured out the problem by tonight, I'll ask him to consider calling an electrician.

[thinman]

At least 2 - 120 volt/20 amp small appliance branch circuits are required for the kitchen.

I'd install a dedicated branch circuit for the microwave.

[ray2047]

The next to the last picture that shows an octagon box next to a two gang box is wrong if your planing to bury the box in the octagon box in the wall which I suspect you are. You can't bury a box.

[lbd301]

I'll tell DH he has to cut a hole around it when he sheetrocks and I'll get a blank face plate to go over it. Thanks.

[ray2047]

Originally Posted by lbd301

I'll tell DH he has to cut a hole around it when he sheetrocks and I'll get a blank face plate to go over it. Thanks.

The only cover plate your likely to find is just what you have. You would need to change to a double gang box the same as the one you used for the receptacles.

However the box really isn't even needed. Is that two GFCIs in the other box? You only need one. That should give you more then enough room to wire them both.

However if you only have one breaker supplying the counter top you need to run a new 20a circuit from the breaker box for the second receptacle. In that case it would need to be GFCI protected also.

However if the pictured receptacle is on a circuit used for anything other then the counter top or is not 20a you need two new circuits.

Note: It is best to have a separate circuit for the refrigerator but it may be plugged into a counter top circuit.

[John Nelson]

The kitchen is the most electrically-regulated room in the house, and rightfully so given all of the potential dangers there. There is zero chance of getting it all right without studying up. I suggest you buy and read the inexpensive green paperback Wiring Simplified, available in the electrical aisle of most home centers.

[ray2047]

Sorry didn't catch it on my last post but....

Most #12 sold today has a yellow jacket. Most number #14 sold today has a white jacket. Your picture shows a white jacket on the NM (Romex). If the wire your using is #14 it must be on a 15 amp breaker. A 15 amp breaker can not be used on a counter top circuit. Suggest you follow Johns suggestion of reading up on what is required first.

[lbd301]

Thanks guys! I thought DH had a wiring 1-2-3 book or something, but I don't see it around. I'll have to ask him. The box of Romex says 14/2 on it. It says it's good for outlets. Doesn't specify for countertop. What's the difference between a countertop outlet or regular wall outlet?

By the way, he came home at lunch and looked at it and noticed that one of the wires was not wrapped tightly around the screw, so he fixed that and now all the outlets work. He said he will put the microwave on a separate circuit after the cabinet situation is all fixed, because that will take him quite awhile.

[lbd301]

Oh, can someone please explain why the junction box cannot be covered by sheetrock? Is it just not a good idea, or not code, or something else?

[Bill190]

Originally Posted by lbd301

What's the difference between a countertop outlet or regular wall outlet?

It is like one of those small apartment washing machines with a dryer on top. Very small! Can't wash but maybe a half load of clothes at a time.

Same thing with electricity. A light in the living room or bedroom is a small load. Or a TV is a small load. So small 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp breaker is OK...

But in the kitchen a microwave or deep fryer or hot plate or electric griddle is a BIG load! You need a larger wire 12 gauge and a larger breaker 20 amp to carry the load.

Then you need separate circuits for refrigerator, dishwasher, microwave, etc. All these things are "big loads"!

Then you come along with the vacuum cleaner which is another big load and pop goes the circuit breaker.

Or a space heater and pop goes the circuit breaker.

Then thanksgiving comes and you have all sorts of stuff going at the same time and circuit breakers keep tripping!

Arrrggg! (Best to design these things the right way from the beginning to handle those big loads...)

[pcboss]

Burying the junction box is both a Code violation and a poor practice. It is very hard to troubleshoot a problem when you don't know where all the parts are hidden. A splice could go bad behind the wall and you would never know where to start loking for the problem.

[ray2047]

Sorry but bottom line to all of this is your current wiring is not code. It needs to be disconnected and not used. You can not use #14 for a counter top circuit.. You can not use a 15 amp breaker. You must use a 20 amp breaker and you must use at least #12 wire. You can not, by code, have one 20 amp circuit. By code you must have two 20 amp circuits.

What you had before may well have been code at time of installation. It would have been grandfathered and OK. But opening the wall in most areas requires the electric to be brought up to current code.

Do you currently have the wiring on a 15 amp or 20 amp breaker. If a 20 amp breaker you have a dangerous situation that could cause a fire. Turn off the breaker till you can fix it.

[Duhandyman]

Unfortunately you need to bite the bullet and get rid of your DH and hire a real electrician to have this done right. If you call your local electrical union chapter they can point you to somebody who can take care of you properly.

[John Nelson]

Electrical wiring is not a place to go by the seat of the pants or a place to innovate. There are many, many hidden hazards, hazards that are not readily evident even to experienced electricians and which are waiting to cause damage or injury years down the road. That's why we have electrical codes, to protect us from hazards that we cannot envision on our own. By simply following a simple set of rules, you can protect yourself from most hazards, both evident and not evident. The book I recommended lays out these rules in a very easy-to-understand manner, even for a layman. And it only costs about $6 and takes an hour to read. Pretty cheap price for the safety of your family.

[lbd301]

Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back. DH is reading up on how to update everything. I"ll post back when it's all figured out correctly! Thanks for all the input!