Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - hot water radiator heat problems
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12-24-01, 09:29 PM
Help - We are cold!
We have a gas-fired unit that feeds two zones. The first floor is a simple baseboard zone, the second floor has cast iron radiators in each room fed in parallel through some sort of venturi's from a 3" copper feed loop that is below the radiators. The furnace has a guage that reads a constant 180 degrees and 0 PSI, which I know is all wrong. Gas bill is through the roof, and the circulation pump is going almost all the time..
Several times so far this winter the radiators all make a "flushing" sound and then go cold while the loop remains hot. The solution was to refil the system, making certain all the air was out. I've determined that the water level has been dropping below the venturi's due to a leak in the gaskets around the circulator pump.
As the pump is quite old, should I replace it now or just try to replace the gaskets? These are old fibre gaskets between the cast pipe sections into and out of the furnace. There are Copper fittings that were put in at some historic point to connect the 2 zone loops, which are all copper. The system was obviously retrofitted by a previous owner, who took the cheap route.
I'm also not certain that the fill point in this system is working properly. How can I check it? While I'm down there, the same goes for the compression tank and the relief valve.
Lastly, is there some sort of device that I could use in place of the screw-type bleeder valves on the radiators that would let the air out, but not the water? Most of the valves are difficult to reach.
Thanks,
Rand
PS: Yes - I'm writing this on Christmas Eve, after crawling back up from the basement (dungeon) where the beast lives. The leak is more than ever and it's getting colder!
We have a gas-fired unit that feeds two zones. The first floor is a simple baseboard zone, the second floor has cast iron radiators in each room fed in parallel through some sort of venturi's from a 3" copper feed loop that is below the radiators. The furnace has a guage that reads a constant 180 degrees and 0 PSI, which I know is all wrong. Gas bill is through the roof, and the circulation pump is going almost all the time..
Several times so far this winter the radiators all make a "flushing" sound and then go cold while the loop remains hot. The solution was to refil the system, making certain all the air was out. I've determined that the water level has been dropping below the venturi's due to a leak in the gaskets around the circulator pump.
As the pump is quite old, should I replace it now or just try to replace the gaskets? These are old fibre gaskets between the cast pipe sections into and out of the furnace. There are Copper fittings that were put in at some historic point to connect the 2 zone loops, which are all copper. The system was obviously retrofitted by a previous owner, who took the cheap route.
I'm also not certain that the fill point in this system is working properly. How can I check it? While I'm down there, the same goes for the compression tank and the relief valve.
Lastly, is there some sort of device that I could use in place of the screw-type bleeder valves on the radiators that would let the air out, but not the water? Most of the valves are difficult to reach.
Thanks,
Rand
PS: Yes - I'm writing this on Christmas Eve, after crawling back up from the basement (dungeon) where the beast lives. The leak is more than ever and it's getting colder!
Sharp Advice
12-25-01, 02:36 AM
Hello Rand. Welcome to the Heating and Cooling Appliance forum and the Do-It-Yourself Web Site.
The scenario sounds like that "Beast in the Basement" is old, wornout, tired and in need of much repair. At this time of the year in your area, heating agents are in high demand.
Therefore, do whatever is necessary to the unit to seal up the leaks, open the flow valves at the radiators, fill the water system and hope for the best. I do wish you the best luck also.
Without being the resident moderator and or an experienced service person on the type of heating equipment you have, my intent is to let you know your question has not been overlooked, passed over nor ignored.
Come early spring time, consider upgrading the entire heating system to baseboard units and or replacing the entire unit cpmpletely. Home heating is a worth while home improvement and investment.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Regards & Good Luck
Gas Appliances Forum Moderator
Tom_Bart...
Energy Conservation Consultant & Natural Gas Appliance Problem Diagnostics Technician.
The scenario sounds like that "Beast in the Basement" is old, wornout, tired and in need of much repair. At this time of the year in your area, heating agents are in high demand.
Therefore, do whatever is necessary to the unit to seal up the leaks, open the flow valves at the radiators, fill the water system and hope for the best. I do wish you the best luck also.
Without being the resident moderator and or an experienced service person on the type of heating equipment you have, my intent is to let you know your question has not been overlooked, passed over nor ignored.
Come early spring time, consider upgrading the entire heating system to baseboard units and or replacing the entire unit cpmpletely. Home heating is a worth while home improvement and investment.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Regards & Good Luck
Gas Appliances Forum Moderator
Tom_Bart...
Energy Conservation Consultant & Natural Gas Appliance Problem Diagnostics Technician.
seabee57
12-25-01, 05:56 AM
ANY HOT WATER HEATING IS SUPPOSED TO BE A CLOSED LOOP...MEANING THAT ALL COMPONENTS SHOULD BE TIGHT AND LEAK FREE....HAVING ANY LEAK EVEN A TINY ONE CAUSES MANY PROBLEMS,SHORT TERM OR LONG TERM....
1. IF YOU CAN TRY TO TIGHEN THE LEAKS AT THE GASKETS,NEXT,REPLACE GASKETS ONLY...
2. WHEN RE-FILLING THE SYSTEM..SHUT VALVE GOING TO THE EXPANSION TANK...GO TO THE AUTOMATIC FILL VALVE..NORMALLY A SMALL RED DEVICE WITH A SCREW HEAD ON TOP IN THE CENTER...BACK SCREW OUT... TURN SCREW IN SLOWLY LISTEN FOR WATER TO ENTER..GOT TO HIGHEST POINT AND OPEN BLEEDER VALVE..WAIT UNTIL WATER COMES OUT...ALSO WATCH BOILER GAGE..IT SHOUD GO NO HIGHER THAN 12 PSI...
3.NOW OPEN VALVE TO EXPANSION TANK,TURN BOILER ON...
LEAKS MUST BE FIXED..ALLOWING A LARGE AMOUNT OF MAKE-UP WATER TO ENTER BOILER CANS CAUSE THE BOILER TO FAIL PREMATURELY
1. IF YOU CAN TRY TO TIGHEN THE LEAKS AT THE GASKETS,NEXT,REPLACE GASKETS ONLY...
2. WHEN RE-FILLING THE SYSTEM..SHUT VALVE GOING TO THE EXPANSION TANK...GO TO THE AUTOMATIC FILL VALVE..NORMALLY A SMALL RED DEVICE WITH A SCREW HEAD ON TOP IN THE CENTER...BACK SCREW OUT... TURN SCREW IN SLOWLY LISTEN FOR WATER TO ENTER..GOT TO HIGHEST POINT AND OPEN BLEEDER VALVE..WAIT UNTIL WATER COMES OUT...ALSO WATCH BOILER GAGE..IT SHOUD GO NO HIGHER THAN 12 PSI...
3.NOW OPEN VALVE TO EXPANSION TANK,TURN BOILER ON...
LEAKS MUST BE FIXED..ALLOWING A LARGE AMOUNT OF MAKE-UP WATER TO ENTER BOILER CANS CAUSE THE BOILER TO FAIL PREMATURELY
12-26-01, 02:54 PM
Yes - Still Cold - AND still too stubborn to call a plumber. Space heaters are helping out for now.
Ok - I drained the system to try replacing the gaskets only to discover that the pump housing is cracked so the leak is inside the pump.
The cold water supply is connected directly into the return pipe below the pump with no adjustment point or regulator anywhere.
I also saw that the compression tank is leaking water from that little bicycle-valve-stem thingy.
The furnace boiler has 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" fittings (I can't tell untill I take it apart) and everything at the local supply seem to be 1" and then all the copper is 3/4", even though that feeds into a 3" main distribution pipe for the second floor.
I will probably replace the boiler (it's a Goetz 110,000 BTU Steam Boiler) with a hot water unit more suited to this small building. I want to just get this working for the rest of the season.
Today I got the following parts:
- Circulation Pump
- Fill Control Regulator
- Backflow Valve
- Air Capture Gate
- Air Release Valve
- Compression Tank
- Cut-Off Valves to Isolate the Boiler
- Various Galvanized Fittings (every shape and size)
Is there anything I should be doing that ANY of you think I may have missed?
My wife told me to take before and after pics. Is anyone really that interested in this mess?
Thanks,
Rand
Ok - I drained the system to try replacing the gaskets only to discover that the pump housing is cracked so the leak is inside the pump.
The cold water supply is connected directly into the return pipe below the pump with no adjustment point or regulator anywhere.
I also saw that the compression tank is leaking water from that little bicycle-valve-stem thingy.
The furnace boiler has 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" fittings (I can't tell untill I take it apart) and everything at the local supply seem to be 1" and then all the copper is 3/4", even though that feeds into a 3" main distribution pipe for the second floor.
I will probably replace the boiler (it's a Goetz 110,000 BTU Steam Boiler) with a hot water unit more suited to this small building. I want to just get this working for the rest of the season.
Today I got the following parts:
- Circulation Pump
- Fill Control Regulator
- Backflow Valve
- Air Capture Gate
- Air Release Valve
- Compression Tank
- Cut-Off Valves to Isolate the Boiler
- Various Galvanized Fittings (every shape and size)
Is there anything I should be doing that ANY of you think I may have missed?
My wife told me to take before and after pics. Is anyone really that interested in this mess?
Thanks,
Rand