Painting - Benjamin Moore...quality down and price UP!!!

As A die hard Benjamin Moore user I've noticed the quality has dropped in the past two years. Coverage has slipped and the price continues to increase 7% a year.
I never thought I'd use any other paint but formulas have changed recently and I no longer use B.M. as my first choice. Has anybody else been ticked about the changes at Benjamin Moore? VENT HERE!!! I used to buy $10,000 in B.M. paint per year, now I'm saving $3,000 a year and using better paint.

What are you using now? I'm starting my first room painting project and want quality and economy.

Devoe. It's better quality, levels well, goes farther,covers better, and is less expensive. How can you go wrong?

Comments anyone?

Will Devoe take three easy payments and do we get a free trim brush with each purchase...:)

I have been using Devoe paint for 5-6 years now and it is what is on my home. I can't comment on B.M. even though it is available at my Devoe dealer due to using the Devoe. The Devoe has always had a better price and all things being equal had to use it to remain competetive...Mike

Mike, you are wise. Bless you and all of the painters on this bb. How do I become a moderator?

I'm glad I went to this site!! I also recently purchased Benjamin Moore paint....I have an antique kitchen cabinet that I wanted a 'quality' paint for. It has only been 4 months ago, and the paint has blisstered up in several places. Everytime you touch it more paint falls off!!...This paint was nearly 25 dollars incluing tax, for 1 gallon !! Next time I want to buy paint , I'll go to Wal Mart!!! ...Darlene 35986

Darlene 35986,

How did you prep these cabinets prior to painting, did you paint them with a latex or oil based paint. Even the best paints will peel if the surface is not preped right or the wrong type of paint applied to a certain surface. I do not feel this problem was Ben. Moores fault. As far as Walmart paints go, I have had friends that have endless troubles with some of there paints.

Chipfo is right. This is a prep problem and not bm trouble. How did you prep the surface?

Let's go back to the original question. Are there any Benjamin Moore reps out there on JDX's harsh words? The interior line of b.m. really.......has turned to trash.

Well here's my reply....I sanded it the best Icould...I'm a T-10 parapalegic...so it's pretty hard to say ,...but I did the best I could....that's why I 'thought' I'd buy a good quality paint....it's kind of hard to do a job like that sitting in a wheelchair...but why did only the bottom doors do this....I took them all off the hinges, and painted them the same way?.....Thanks, Darlene 35986

Darlene 35986,
Site-unseen, from your describtion, is it possible that you used a latex paint directly on top of oil based paint (oil based is usually the cabinets original paint). If you did use latex, the cabinets should have been primed with an oil based primer before painting.

To all who is voicing there disapointment in Ben Moores quality, I am not defending them, go ahead and voice, I just don't feel that the quality of there paint has gone down so much that it will jump off of properly prepared surfaces. I have been useing there oil based high gloss Impervo for years (over $30 a gallon) It was one of the best interior oil based paints I have used, but, I have noticed the last few times I have used it, it tends to run and sag easier, like they thinned it at the factory before adding my normal amount of thinner, so I too have noticed a change.

Chipfo, it gives me some comfort that you have noticed the CHANGES in QUALITY as well. The Aqua-Glo drags and doesn't cover like it used to, the Imprvo runs and sags, the Wall Satin doesn't cover like it used to. What about the crap that sticks underneath the lid and then the dealer puts it in the shaker and now you have stringy crap all through the gallon, AND they charge you for a crappy gallon of paint you have to pick through! The exterior line of B.M. is next on the chop block. For now the exterior is o.k. I guess. Where is a Benjamin Moore rep. when you need one?

Thanks for the reply......I stripped the old paint off the doors with that paint stripper stuff [ can't remember the name ] , then sanded them. Only the bottom doors are chipping like this......Oh well, I'll do the bottom doors again!!....I did use a latex paint, because I can wash up with soap & water. Do I need to put a primer on, and what kind?.....Thanks, Darlene....

Darlene 35986,

Yes, if you are stripping the old paint off definately use a primer, I suggest an oil based bare wood primer, Kilz at least. Also be sure you are washing all the stripper residue off according to directions and allowing to dry thoroughly and lightly sanding the wood with a 220 grit sandpaper with the grain of the wood and you should do fine. Latex is not as durable as oil based paint but if you do as stated above you should be fine.

Lightly sanding with the 220 inbetween coats will help for a smoother finish also.

Hope this helps.

Benjamin Moore has spent a fortune on marketing and advertising. This is a multi-billion dollar a year company. To date they have relied on name recognition. Marketing is marketing but please have something to back up all the B.S. You wait, they are going to kill their product more and more. Thompson's markets the hell out of their garbage product and people buy it, but much less often. It's all going to catch up. There are no secrets in this industry. Each manufacturer knows what goes into everyone's gallon. B.M. please drop a little acrylic here and there, is a washable flat too much to ask for, PLEASE REINVEST instead of all you executives buying summer homes, building additions, and kissing Warren Buffet's but for it all.

I have took the liberty to invite BM to come defend/comment themselves, to make this fair. I urge everyone to be nice and polite, any badmouthing, swearing or rude comments will be deleted on the spot so lets keep it clean and see what they have to say.

I promise to be nice. Will they show........????

Thanks for the info.....I'll try again......Darlene.....

JDX, I know you won't get out of line. I posted that about deleting any rude posts NOT to any of the regular posters, all the regulars here are nice and very helpful, unlike many of the home improvement bulletin boards where the regulars argue and bicker among themselves just to further confuse the DIYers, that "Be nice" post was for any passerby's that may be angry with BM.

I did not direct that post to anyone in perticular :)

Darlene, you are welcome, glad we could help.

No problem, Chipfo. I'm interested in what the B.M. rep will say about formula changes and other complaints about that good paint they used to have on the market. Until then, I'm going with DEVOE!
Chipfo, you are a good man.

Well Chipfo, it looks like we will be waiting a while for a Benjamin Moore rep. to answer our questions. For some reason that sounds about right......waiting......waiting....

I went looking for comments about Benjamin Moore paint. We have been using it for over 20 years. Last fall I used it for painting a bathroom and hallway. Even TWO coats was not to my liking-very disappointing, but I figured it was me.

This past week (3/10/01) my spouse painted our family room. This weekend he is doing it AGAIN with B.M. I guess it wasn't me. The paint store people just looked at my husband when he questioned them about B.M. We are done with B. M.

It is now getting pricey and not the quality we are use to.

Will try the Devoe. Thanks.

Yes, JDX, it is a no-show, looks like they are avoiding the issue, sorry guys.

Today I bought Devoe's best interior flat. TEN dollars less a gallon than Benjamin Moore's best! I've found Devoe to have a better p.r. dept. as well. The Benjamin Moore rep. no show is NO surprise. We must be right...their stuff is now poor excuse for paint!

JDX, This thread has set a record for views at least since I have been here. You get the Brush With the Golden Handle Award....Mike

Mike, thanks for the award. There are so many I'd like to thank...Chipfo, MikeJ, all my fans, you've all been there for me... I could go on and on.
Actually, I hope to hit 400 post views by Wednesday. Let's keep it alive!

Mike is right, I have seen no threads with this many posts or veiws, I do not have a golden paintbrush so this will have to suffice.

http://cfcn.homestead.com/files/award.jpg
Most Views Award

Bless you, Chipfo. Let's take this thing to 1,000! I beg you and Mike to leave it on here.

Any other brands that anyone could recommend??
Most clients/associates I run into prefer BM, but I
am always open for suggestions...

jwb, For 7 years I was a die-hard Benjamin Moore user. Then their interior line started to not cover as well. For now the exterior line is still the best but you can be sure that management will cheapen that as well...in time.
I now use Devoe's premium line and it's so much nicer to work with than Benjamin Moore's WallSatin, AquaGlo, Satin Impervo, etc., etc.. I could go on and on! Try Devoe and I'm sure you'll save money and time.

problem is, I am in north Jersey.
According to the Devoe website, the closest
dealer is in Conn. Any other brands you could
suggest. For example, Behr is popular amongst
contractors in the area (from HomeDepot), but my
experience with the semi has been bad. BM, with
it's faults, is still better. Also available in
the are is Sherwin, Con Lux, Pittsburgh, along
with others. What else can you suggest??

My apologies for the poor typing.
Long night....thanks again.

jwb, Stay away from Behr...it's a BEAR to work with! Try some of Sherwin Williams and compare to BM. I hope this has been a help. Good Luck!

Let's have some discussion here...

Mike and Chipfo, Don't get upset that I brought this post back to life. I'm still looking for answers!
This post seems to have a life of its own! Mike and Chipfo, did I ever tell you two that you are like brothers to me?

I have in my career been devoted to BM largely due to two contributing factors...
1) the local sales force is superlative (if they don't know, they won't make it up)
2) the paint lab guys have never failed to speak with me directly with interest over any issue I presented. Although I did present them with a problem 8 years ago that they still haven't answered.

This having been said, I thought it was something about my technique that was amiss for the past year or so that I wasn't exactly thrilled with the results of my efforts. You see, I no longer paint solely in my business, but I still love it and have a strong following in that trade. So...because I don't do it 60 hours a week as I did back then, I logically thought it must be me. Recently cost me an extra coat on a whole-house cabinetry job.

I don't exactly think it's thinner paint, but perhaps fewer pigments or more extenders or something. I know it seems pentrol doesn't act the way it used to with BM.

I will try as well to get someone from the company to respond to these comments. I'll keep you posted. Let's all compose ourselves so we can logically and in detail post answers to any questions they may have. I still hang on to the brand identity, but realize they must also pay for their new plant here in Dallas. Free cup of coffee, t-shirt, hat and bagel are nice, after all. But wait a minute... I can get that at the big orange barn, eh??? Even gave HD a hard enough time about having to pay for pencils with their name on them that they gave me a handful... hehehe.

I'll be calling Devoe tomorrow.
Thanks for the tip, JDX.

sonnie
http://www.sonnielayne.com

What a great discussion and help for my previously posted question about trim paint. In my previous question, I said that my exterior painter didn't like BM's Satin Imprevo. His complaint was that it yellowed quickly. He recommended Glidden's Ultra Traditional and gave me a little to try on my interior trim. The Gidden paint did seem to level and cover better than the BM, but it was a lot glossier. I could practically see my reflection in my cabinet door. Glidden only offers an alkyd paint with less sheen in their cheaper High Hide brand and Glidden couldn't comment on how this would compare to the Ultra Traditional. A lot of painters in my area do use Devoe paint. Now, my question is: Is the gloss level of Devoe's semi-gloss similar to Satin Imprevo's (which I like)? Does Devoe's paint yellow or change color quickly? How does Sherwin William's paint compare? Thanks for any comments.

Use the Devoe way before touching Glidden. A second choice to Devoe would be SW. Use Glidden as a 78th choice. All oil will yellow in time, more noticable in the lighter colors, of coarse......

Thanks for all the tips about BM. Co-worker recommended BM a few years back. I thought it was a good quailty paint.

I used it to paint my bedroom and was not happy. I did all the prep work--cleaned walls, sanded and primed trim before applying BM. It's popping off the trim.

Consumer Report did nice article about paints about a year ago. They said BM not very durable. I believe Pratt & Lambert was their top choice??

They also had positive comments about Valspar paint from Lowes.

Next project, I'll use DeVoe.

I've heard P/L was bought by SW. I'm in the process of testing SW and BM on a job now, exterior.

Please post your comments when you finish the job.

Thanks.

Kathy D, I think we can all thank the " Tree-huggers" and "granola-eaters" for the quality in paint going downward. Each year those environmental wackos get their way whether it's trees or paint. I guarantee you in 3 years- NO OIL BASED PAINT SOLD IN USA.

Hey, JD, I'm a tree-hugger and granola eater from way back. Physically and actually, tho' not philosophically or idealogically. I've watched the quality of acrylic, acetates and vinyl based paints increase dramatically. Amazing to see what the chemists will come up with when forced to do so. I look forward to future advances in the field so I don't have to mess with so much naptha and other spirits and deal with disposal. Like I said, it's not a philosophical matter to me, but one of convenience and good sense. Wish they'd come up with one that cures as hard as oh, say Impervo. True enough the acrylic urethanes do that, but it's another coat to protect a kitchen cabinet job, for instance. I do use the acrylic urethanes for my floor jobs (when I can't convince the client to opt for shellac, that is).

Speaking of which, anyone know a way to tint shellac to anything close to opacity?

my best,
Sonnie

Did anyone besides me think "environmental wackos" was not only rude but had nothing positive to contribute to this subject?

I agree it wasn't polite. While there are some people who carry their concerns of environmental issues well beyond reason, there are I guess a few "wacko's" in any given group no matter the subject, eh? Still, it's name calling and I'd like to think we were all tought as children that it's not nice to call names. Besides, it's bad karma...

Sonnie

Rude? Rude?! Let's lose the political correct lingo and move on.
Sonnie is right to state that their are wackos on every subject. However, I stand by my statement that the environmental wackos are the one's that are out to have government regulation on all things that American consumers use in daily living. So YES, the term "environmental wacko" fits nicely into our discussion. First it was govt. regulation on alcohol, tobacco, the way restaurants cook eggs, and now PAINT! Wake up and smell the fumes!

There`s not much a limey like me can say about good ole American paint,but I may be able to enlighten you on some of the English stuff!
Ive been reading with interest about your "treehugging waterbased/acrylic paint loving hippies...http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif
and I would like to add my thoughts on how they have influenced paint quality in general over here.
For the last 6/7 years I have been using a waterbased exterior undercoat made by Dulux (Glidden is now the parent co.)called Weathershield...Its not cheap,£20.00 for 2 1/2 litres...But I can now guarantee my work for 2 years knowing full well that the job will last 6 years or more,and taking into account our dismal winters,thats not at all bad.
Oil based undercoats usually start to deteriorate after a couple of years and start to crack flake & bubble,letting in water...blah blah but this stuff resists that for some reason and I swear by it. I also love the fact that I can add a topcoat after only an hours drying time.
On one of our local housing estates I personaly decorated 35 units and have had no comebacks..There was at that time another decorator on site using traditional undercoat...I have already given the owners a price for these units which I will start work on this season!!!
Having said that,I have used these enviromental friendly top coats (interior gloss, satinwood,eggshell etc) but these definatly need improvement and I certainly will not be using them again until they get it right....http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/images/smilies/bungi.gif

[Edited by toptosher on 06-18-01 at 11:50]

Toptosher, Very well stated thoughts; I couldn't agree more. It warms my heart to know you enjoyed that wacko comment/slam.
The chemists have brought the water-based finishes a long way in the past 5 years. Some future challenges include epoxy finishes, exterior poly finishes, floor finishes, metal paint.

Well, there ya' go Top, just goes to prove yet again that the success of the final finish rests on the prep, which includes base coat or primer. For now we'll be happy we have the newer acrylic multi-chained molecules in use, but... I don't know that you have these available in UK yet.

We have a new, hmmm well not exactly a hybrid as there are no acrylic molecules, but a new sort of ******* alkyd chain available. Thus it's oil based, but it's gas permeable (tho' I can't say for sure if it is to the degree latex is), dries in an hour, sands like a dream and topcoats with anything. I don't know about the elasticity of the finish coat for vapor transimission on wooden siding apps, but I've been very impressed with interior applications.

Now I couldn't swear, but maybe they've cracked some code regarding the behaviour of shellac vs. the environment and applied it to alkyd technologies. That is certainly the course of Zinnser's products and I've a feeling that the other chemists are trying desperately to duplicate.

Zinsser, if you don't know there, is a long standing family that manufactures shellac in ready to use formulae in the US. I prefer to make my own, but if their prep is fresh, it's perfectly acceptable to the trade in general (fine finishers still make their own) for use as a general primer ext. and primer/finish coat interior.

I find this very interesting and all I've gotten from the chemists is a cloak and dagger routine. So, to me there is an answer in getting the alcohols, ketones and alkyds to bond. We're not that far off, and perhaps that's what's going on in the industry.

I would welcome that particular advancement not only as a scientific achievement but as a benefit to everyone in the industry, tree-huggin hippy or not. Come to think of it, I was in San Fransisco in the 60's and yes I did wear flowers in my hair. All I concern myself with now is doing the best job I can with the best products available (even if it means making my own) and hoping everyone ends up happy for the progress.

Moderators, do we need a new thread?

I'm not worthy, but JD, knowing full well you are a true professional in the field (I mean that!), could you give us your insight on this issue as regards the possible improvement of the product we depend on for our livelihoods? Perhaps if we all scream loud enough TOGETHER we can get the ball on the roll. I learned in the 60's that screaming with one another produced greater benefit than screaming at each other.
screaming from Dallas, not far from the grassy knoll,
I am truly
Sonnie
Sonnie C Layne Services
http://www.sonnielayne.com

Mind, JD, that I was typing my response as yours was being posted.

yours,
Sonnie

Sonnie, Let's not scream for a new thread until we get some answers. You want my insight on what? You want to scream with one voice like in the '60's? Not this guy. The last thing I want to be part of is anything to do with all the losers who marched in the 60's. I'm sure you can still remember the smells of doobie, booze, bad breath, and raunchy arm-pits from the sound of it. You want to do that over paint? i'll think about it.

Can someone give me their opinion on Columbia paint. I just bought a home and that is what the previous homeowner used. Let me know your thoughts on price and quality.

Also my deck was painted with an oil based paint. I would like to remove the old paint and stain it. Is ther a fast and efficient way to remove the old paint between the deck boards? Also can someone recommend a good deck stain and sealer for the deck.

Thanks and I appreciate any replies.

Columbia Paint= junk. Paint removal on deck.....don't strip it, replace it or paint existing deck again. Stain....Benjamin Moore, believe it or not is one of the best. Cabot Stain is way up there as well.
Sorry if I am blunt and to the point. It is my style. Sometimes being blunt hurts feelings. We've become so sensitive as do-it yourselfers that JDX may pick up his toys and go home. So long............................

I'm re painting redwood siding that was painted 10 years ago for the first time with Kelly Moore paint. I'm wondering if I should repaint with K M or use Moorewear paint by B M.
Any advice?

Meshell,
Your questuin about your deck should have been posted in the deck forum, but here goes my two cent anyway:
Apparently you have removed the top surface paint already, because you have inquired about removal between the deck boards. A very difficult if not nearly impossible task. Depending on the gap between the boards, there are a couple power tool methods which cold do the paint removal. A circular saw blade set at the correct depth or a router with narrow panel bit can do the job, but these are very tricky procedures, best left to a professional.
You are well advised in choosing a stain this time. I advise against a solid color stain because in many cases you will be back where you are - removing a peeled film covering.
There are a number of good semi-transparent oil stains available. Choose one that penetrates, repels water, and most importantly has UV protection. The sun's UV, by far is a decks worst enemy. Depending on your decks exposure to the elements, don't be surprised if you need to clean and re-stain in the third year. I'm lso copying this post to the deck forum as you may get some additional suggstions.
fred

Thank you fewalt for your advice and JDX. Thanks also for placing my question in the right forum.