Electrical - A/C & D/C - The Christmas light circuit didn't fix itself, so ...

A friend of mine said I made a "weekender" mistake -- and I know better, but ...

I ran all my Christmas lights (5-6 strands) through one outlet, so that I could use a timer. Dumb, but it worked great. Then one day, the lights didn't come on -- and the bathroom outlets upstairs didn't work either. Some outlets in the kitchen, on that side of the house, didn't work. Resetting the GFCI on that side of the house (in the kitchen) fixed the kitchen outlets, but not the ones in any bathroom, either upstairs or downstairs. All of my wall switches are fine. Wife's complaining about not being able to use the hairdryer in the bathroom(s). I have a second GFCI outlet in the kitchen, but it doesn't seem to be affected (is that the "whole house GFCI?"). What's my next step?

Dummy in Colorado

I suspect you strained a weak connection in the receptacle powering the christmas lights. (You're not stupid for running 6 strings on one receptacle, that's a very small amperage draw.) I think that if you kill power to that circuit at the breaker and remove the receptacle you may find it was wired in the back using "push-in" style connections. Remove the wires, bend little hooks on the ends, and install them onto the screws on the sides. Black goes on the brass screws, white goes on the silver screws. Let us know what you find. We're very concerned about Mrs. Travinta running around in winter with wet hair.

Juice

Thanks for your reply. I have the receptacle out, but there's no screws on the sides at all. You were right that it's the "push-in" type of connection. So, do I need a new receptacle?

(not sure you can answer this without seeing it, but ...)

BTW, my panel is labeled "bedbath", just above "master". I'm assuming that since the outlets that aren't working are in all 3 bathrooms, I've identified the right circuit, even though the outlet I suspect caused the problem is an outdoor receptacle.

Thanks for the help!

I'm putting my money (but not much of it) on a third GFCI outlet, which you haven't found yet. I have nine GFCI outlets in my house. A friend of mine was recently quite surprised to find one in a closet. A poster here once found one behind some plywood stored in the garage. They show up in the darndest places.

But Juice may be right. So go buy another outlet. Splurge for one of the $1.50 ones. An outlet with no screws must have been a very cheap one indeed.

Also, have you pushed the suspect breaker off hard and turned it back on?

If you aren't sure the power's off don't pull those wires out! test those wires with a voltmeter. If you don't have one you should. Home Depot has a modest but very reliable little Sperry multi-meter, Model #SP-5A, for $9.94. This is a top flight manufacturer of instruments, and this little meter is likely to serve you for life. If you ever intend to do it yourself with electrical repairs you simply can't LIVE without a meter! (Pun intended)

Your alternative is to kill the main breaker to your panel so all circuits are off, just to be safe.

If that were my house and I found one of those cheap-o screwless receptacles I would embark on a program of replacing every one of those types, even if I only did one or two a week. Those darn things help contractors knock a house together in no time, but the homeowner pays for it eventually in inconvenience and replacement costs. I personally feel that NEMA, UL or the NEC would step in and ban them.

Good luck.

Juice

Took a couple weeks to find another free Saturday ...

I did get a voltage meter today & successfully learned how to use it on outlets that work. Here's what I found out:

- I don't have power to the outdoor outlet. (I knew that.)

- When I remove the outlet and apply the leads to the wires themselves, I still don't have power. This is the same if I have the suspected circuit breaker on or off.

- In response to John Nelson's previous post, I did try turning several circuit breakers off hard, with no effect. But that leads me to the next question:


When I turned off the breaker on the suspected circuit (the one that makes the most sense based on the panel label), other lights & outlets that previously were working went out. Makes sense that I don't really know what circuit I'm working on, and the outlet that started the problem doesn't have power regardless of what I'm doing at the panel.

I did just discover by reading my panel label more closely that there is a third GFI: two that say "kitchen GFI" (know where those are) and one that says "house GFI" (no idea where that is). Are GFI's always on a receptacle? Should I start looking in closets now for that third GFI? Anyone have any other suggestions, I'll be here ...

Thanks!

Gfi are normally found in the receptacles in the bathrooms, garage, kitchen, basement, or even in an outside receptacle. You may also have a gfi breaker in the panel. I suspect you have a GFI hiding somewhere that is kicked out not due to load but due to moisture leaking into those outside lights. Try unplugging those outside lights and looking in all areas mentioned above on each wall in those rooms. Also look at the receptacles outdide, just look for a one piece weatherproof plate. That would probably be the outside GFI if you have one.

I suspect you have a GFI playing hide and seek. Listen for the giggles coming from that hidden gfi. Then give him a good talking to when you find him [GFI]. Just kidding.

Wg

Searched high & low for another GFI outlet -- & found one in the basement! No other GFI's anywhere, even closets.

Unfortunately, it wasn't tripped, and the outlet is working fine. Tried pushing test & reset on all three GFI's I now know about, nothing happened. Tried switching off & on the three breaker switches labeled GFI at the panel, nothing happened. My outdoor outlets (I have two) are covered with weatherproof plates with spring-loaded covers. No GFI on either of them. Neither outdoor outlet works, although one wasn't used over Christmas.

Any other ideas?

Next move take out the GFIs and test the load side of the GFIs for power. If all GFIs are hot the load side may have failed on one of those GFIs. If that fails then take out all the receptacles that are dead and look for a loose connection or damage due to heat. All in all should take about an hour with a voltage tester and a battery operated screw driver.

Let us know what you find.

Wg

Just to be sure: load side is the right slot (narrow on a polarized outlet) & I test this w/ one lead there & the other in the ground receptacle?

Also, can I be pretty sure that since I found 3 GFI's, and have 3 breaker switches labeled GFI, I have no more? Pretty sure I've looked everywhere.

Your GFIs should be marked with line and load on the back of the GFIs. Easy to tell which is load. Test between the load hot and the load neutral or white wires. Do not test between a line and a load anything. This would give you a false reading. Testing on the load side tells us that the GFI is good if 120 volts are present on the load side between the load hot and the load white.

You easily could have another GFI in the house that was not marked. This is common to have a GFI without knowledge of having it whether marked or not.

GFIs are usually located close to the panel, or in any of the bath receptacles, or over the kitchen counter, or anywhere in a basement. Actually they can be anywhere. I just named the common locations, but you should search every nook and cranny. Usually GFIs are not hidden in a closet. One could still be hidden somewhere. Testing the GFIs for voltage on the load side are the next logical move in my opinion.

Wg

Well, I did as you suggested & didn't find anything. I don't notice any damage or loose connections on the dead outlets, and the wires coming into the dead outlets don't show any power on the voltmeter. GFI's all test out fine.

Wg, in one of your posts you said "If all GFIs are hot the load side may have failed on one of those GFIs." I'm assuming that, since I tested the wires coming into the GFIs, I've ruled that out. But did you mean that the GFI receptacle itself may have failed? If so, should I replace my GFIs? Or should I start the process, as JuiceHead suggested earlier, of replacing my "cheapo screwless receptacles"? Or something else?

If you find 120 volts between the line side brass and silver screws, but find no volts between load side brass and silver screws, and if you cannot correct this by pressing the reset button, and if nothing is plugged into this circuit, then the GFCI outlet is bad. Replace it.

If you have 120 volts between the load side brass and silver screws, then look somewhere else.

OK, listen. I think it's another "push-in" connector on another receptacle in that circuit which is upstream of the one your Christmas lights were plugged into. If you had one of those ultra-cheap screwless receptacles I have no doubt there are others. If you can find another free Saturday I would count up all the dead receptacles, add one to that count, and head over to Home Depot for some new ones. Buy Leviton or Eagle. Now replace every one of the dead receptacles one-by-one. If you can tell which way is upstream (toward the panel) from the first dead one I'd check that one too, even if it's presently working. With two wires going in and two wires going out, there are four connections, and the ones hotting up the live receptacle must be fine, but the ones going out to the next one aren't connected well enough to send the juice down the line. I really hope this helps.

I'm so sure about this being among the strongest of possibilities because I have had this exact same thing happen to me so many times in an apartment complex I used to service in a previous life, which was wired exclusively with screwless el-cheapo receptacles and light switches.

After figuring out the first couple trouble calls that involved this type of receptacle I would walk into the apartment affected, holding a radio and a thin slotted screwdriver, ask the tennant to point out the receptacles that died, and I would plug the radio into one of them and walk around the room inserting the screwdriver into one slot on each receptacle one at a time and wiggling hard. I'd go on doing this to the next one and the next until the radio came on, rip out that receptacle I had just wiggled, pull a new one out of my pocket and replace that one. And POOF! All the other receptacles lit up. The tennant would think I was genius!! For liability reasons I suppose I should say that it is dangerous to insert any metallic object into a live receptacle such as what I described above. Worked like a charm, though! Good luck.

Juice

Thanks, everybody, for your helpful suggestions. I'm learning.

JuiceHead, your description makes sense, since I've tested all the GFIs I could find & they're all fine (load side is lighting up at 120 volts). I'd like to try that approach (except for the screwdriver technique), but first:

It'd be nice to know which outlet is directly "upstream" from the first problematic outlet, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what circuit I'm dealing with, because the outlets are all over the place. I have two upstairs bathrooms (one master, one guest), and a downstairs bathroom. None of those outlets work, and they're all on the north side of the house. The Christmas light outlet is on the west side of the house (ground level), and the other outdoor outlet is on the east side. I haven't found any other broken outlets in the house.

I have a circuit breaker labeled on my panel that says BedBath, and when I shut that one off, the outlets in two upstairs bedrooms go off (outlets here are otherwise working fine). To me, it seems strange to add two outdoor outlets onto this circuit based simply on their locations related to the rest of the outlets on that circuit, but anything's possible, I guess.

I suppose I should start looking for the suspected bad "upstream" outlet in the upstairs bedrooms, but is there a way to _know_ which one this is? Are wiring diagrams available from county records? Or is this all trial & error?

Thanks again for all the help.

Q: s there a way to _know_ which one this is? Are wiring diagrams available from county records? Or is this all trial & error?
A: Sorry, but it's all trial and error. Some educated guesses might shorten the work, but you won't be educated until you're done. What you learn this time will help you next time. Good luck.

Q: To me, it seems strange to add two outdoor outlets onto this circuit based simply on their locations related to the rest of the outlets on that circuit, but anything's possible, I guess.
A: It's fairly typical. The outdoor outlets required GFCI protection, and the bathroom outlets already had it, so they were just piggy-backed on. It saved the electrician the cost of a GFCI outlet.

John is right, there's virtually no chance that wiring records exist. Also, saving time & wire is most often the determining factor behind locations of receptacles throughout a home. I have a really old house and for 6 years have been rewiring a circuit or two at a time, and I'm trying to be logical about it. I will run multiple cables along the same path to keep my circuits separate rather than hitting this & that on the way to something else just to save a little time & wire. That's because I don't want to end up with a circuit that has one receptacle on the front porch, two in the front bedroom, one in the livingroom and three in the garage! Once the walls are all closed up it would take a rocket scientist to troubleshoot that circuit. Unfortunately tough, I'm the oddball in this regard, I will spend the extra time & money to do a logical electrical system. This just isn't typically done and zillions of troubleshooting hours are spent every day by homeowners trying to figure out a basically simple problem like yours. And I'm sure once you find the actual problem you're gonna slap yourself on the forehead and say "How SIMPLE!" Troubleshooting is the hard part and the repair is usually 5% of the time you'll spend on most electrical problems.

There is a substitute for the screwdriver. Take any device that has a plug on it such as a power drill or trouble light or something. Go around to every receptacle that you even remotely think might be on that circuit and insert the plug to wiggle the receptacle instead of the screwdriver. Wiggle it hard, but not hard enough to break the plastic face of the receptacle. Still use the radio, and check that it's definitely on & tuned to a station. Then plug it into a dead receptacle. Any one of them will do, since the power will come on to all of them when it finally does come on. I really think this will do the trick. Good luck.

Juice

So it's Saturday again, and I'm back at it. I have replaced all but one of my dead outlets, but have a question about the last one.

It looks like the electrician used a shortcut he shouldn't have (?). The stab connectors on my old outlets have TWO slots in each position; in other words, line side hot & neutral have room for two wires each, same for load side. At first, I thought all I needed to do to make it more "right" (and this is according to my Wiring 1-2-3 book from Home Depot) was to use a pigtail. But here's where it doesn't make sense to me:

Directly behind the upper outlet (this is the load side?), there are TWO hot wires and ONE neutral. Behind the lower outlet (line side?) there is ONE hot wire, and TWO neutral.

Thought I should get someone's thoughts on this before I proceed. Should I just pigtail it as it exists now? How does this make sense?


One other question: of my six dead outlets, three of them are "end-of-line." I assume this has to do with John's & JuiceHead's previous comments about the illogical layout of home electrical systems. I assume I'll find more pigtail arrangements like the one I described above if I look long enough.


Juice, good idea about using a plug instead of a screwdriver! I'll probably try that after I get all these "known dead" outlets replaced, if everything doesn't magically return to life.

Travis

Except on GFCI outlets, outlets have no line side or load side. They are all the same, unless you have a switched outlet. Is the break-out tab broken out on either or both sides of the outlet?

I suspect that John Nelson is close on his question whether the tab is missing on this receptacle with so many wires in the box. I also suspect that the three receptacles with only one wire in them may also be switched receptacles. As you replace these receptacles pay close attention to how they were originally wired and match that wiring style. This caution is due to the suspected switch receptacles on that circuit. This also brings up a probablity. If you have several receptacles in you circuit that only has one wire in the receptacle box then these wires had to split to go different directions somewhere. Most likely inside switch boxes. You may want to open the switch boxes and look for a loose wire nut in those switch boxes.

I am also suspecting that you may have more than one circuit that has a connection problem.

Bite the bullet and spend about 4 hours doing the following;

If it were me I would get a battery operated power screw driver, send the family to a movie, shut of all 120 breakers and start from one end of the house to the other including basements, garages etc, and remove the plates and receptalcles and switch devices from the mounting to their boxes, just let them all hang out on their wires. Then inspect each receptacle for a loose connection, then check all wire nuts in the switch boxes. If you see heat damage then you may have found the problem or at least one of the problems. Then I would make sure all kids are gone and energize all circuits. and test each pair of black and white wires of that cable or cables in each box for voltage. Do not test to the screws of the devices. Test for voltage on the wires themselves. This should locate you bad connection by finding a bad wire. If you test to the screws of the receptacles then you did not test the connection of the wire going out of that receptacle feeding the next receptacle. Should take you about 4 hours to open all boxes and test each pair of wires in each cable of each box, including the wiring nutting in those switch boxes. Somewhere you have a loose connection. Opening all switch and receptacle boxes and making a visual inspection stands a high probability that you will find heating somewhere from a bad connection.

Let us know what you find.

Wg

Since I suspected a stabber somewhere as the most lilely culprit I did not raise another possibility. But with the new info about 3 end-of-line receptacles, it's become a likelyhood that we're looking at octopus wiring here. There may be a pigtail in a ceiling box that distributes power radially to receptacles & other outlets. I have experienced this on service calls. I took apart the pigtails for wire tracing & testing, and upon re-connecting them - POOF! Everything came back on.

I think Wg hit on something here about switched receptacles. I think you have ONE "neutral" and TWO hots. One of the hots reads zero volts because the corresponding wall switch is off. Find a switch that seems logically located to be the one that controls that receptacle. Switch it on & then test all three wires for voltage. If this is a switched receptacle, one is always hot, and the other is only hot when the switch is on, intended for a lamp so you can light a room from a switch near the entrance to it, as opposed to the builder installing a permanent ceiling fixture. If your voltage test reveals one of those 3 wires is hot only when switched on, look carefully for the little brass tab on the sides of the duplex receptacle, comparing it to one that had 4 wires. You should see the tab missing. I suppose it could be possible that the switch is bad and the receptacle was wired wrong. Let us know what you find.

Juice

Just a quick thought on the switched outlet idea --

I think it's doubtful that the outlets in question are controlled by a switch, because two of them are outdoor outlets, and one is in a downstairs bathroom. Just doesn't make sense that they'd be switch-controlled.

Also, the goofy outlet's tabs are intact, and ALL the hots read zero on the volt meter, whether any switches are on or off.

And if this clarifies anything, I have THREE EACH of hot and neutral wires connected to this outlet. It's just that two hot wires connect to the upper half of the outlet (along with one neutral), and two neutrals to the bottom half (along with one hot).

Since you mentioned a possible "octopus," where would a ceiling box be, since I'll probably be spending next Saturday missing a great movie?

Thanks again for all the advice!

Ceiling box would be above any ceiling-mounted light fixture. And as far as the receptacles with three of each conductor, no single screw terminal on a receptacle should hold more than one wire. I would pigtail the three into groups and add a 10" piece of each color to its respective pigtail for termination onto the receptacle, which of course would leave one of each color screw unoccupied.

If removing wires for testing you find zero volts on the black wires, those would be wires feeding downstream receptacles, and would only be hot when connected to a common point (adjacent screws on the receptacle's side) with an incoming hot.

Hope we get this thing straightened out.

Juice