Flooring Tile - Tiling over vinyl floor

We want to replace some vinyl floors in our new house with ceramic tile. We have been told that the tile can be laid over the vinyl with no problems resulting. We also been told that the vinyl should not be covered with tile as there would be problems. Which is right? Pleasew advise.

HI;

I personaly will not lay tile over vinyl. I have seen it done in some friends home, it seems to be fine but it has only been 2 years now. that is not enough of a test of time to make me a believer.
In my part of the world[the midwest] the cost of putting down a proven underlament will add about 2 to 3 dollars a square foot to the cost of the job, of which 1 to 2 dollars is labor. So if you are doing the job yourself it will only add a buck or so to the total cost. My piece of mind is worth more than that.
Ther are a number of choices in underlayments[ hardibacker, durock, wonerboard] and others. Any, for my thoughts, are better than laying on vinyl.
Hope it helps
Ray Vaughn
http://www.tipsfromthetilepro.com

Hi alcsh1,
I agree with Ray on this one do yourself a great service and install some type of backer unit, then the tile . It will be a better job and last twice as long.
Regards,

Rich Gately (Tileman1)

http://www.gatelytilecompany.homestead.com

No one mentioned whether the subfloor is concrete or wood, but either way, I agree with Ray and Rich. Get the vinyl out of the picture.

John

http://www.johnbridge.com

Interesting...
How about where the vinyl is old and asbestos laden...and on a well-settled concrete slab with a moisture barrier underneath?

To remove the vinyl legally and safely would, for most normal folks, be cost-prohibitive...

If it's sound and level (with no bumps), what would you counsel a client to do?

Also, would the size of the space and traffic have any bearing on your advice, say the difference between a kitchen and a laundry room or bathroom?

If ceramic tile would not be an option over vinyl, what would you recommend to a client for a wet area like a bathroom or laundry in lieu of vinyl?

Have any of the flooring experts here had any experience with Formica Ceramix or equivilent products as such an alternative?

Timely topic as we are in the research phase of such a project...

Thanks in advance for any insight you might provide...

Pat

The vinyl will be new. The 2 floors involved are the bathroom & kitchen.

alcsh1...

So you have relatively new vinyl (no asbestos problem) and wish to tile over it?

I'll assume the vinyl installation is sound...are your edges coved or flat with baseboard mouldings?

What is under the vinyl? By that I mean subflooring...

My DIYer opinion is that, if removing the vinyl poses no safety or health risk (asbestos), I would try a test area to see how practical it is to remove. I agree with the tile guys that the sounder the substrate, the better the installation result..

Are you going to do your own tile installation?

Most installations, especially over a wood subfloor, require checking the floor for rigidity and laying a concrete backer board down, which adds to the thickness of the floor. Some professionals still float a mortar bed (gotta know what you're doin' there) but backer board is cool for DIYers..

Personally, if the floor is sound and over wood, I don't see why you couldn't attach the backer board right through the vinyl. Hopefully some of the tile setters here can explain that in more detail. Also, try doing a search of past threads here if you haven't already to see if this info has been covered....

Good luck with your project..

Pat

HI again, folks.

Yes, if backer board is to be installed, I don't see any reason why it can't go over the vinyl. I've gotten criticized by some of the guys over at the Tile Council of America on this one, so it's controversial.

The main problems with going over vinyl are almost universally agreed upon. The surface (wear layer) of vinyl linoleum is not stable -- it is constantly shrinking. Additionally, it has the tendancy to become brittle with age.

Finally, there is a concern as to how well the vinyl is attached to the subfloor or underlayment. As far as I know, there is only one way to tell, and that entails trying to pull it up.

Asbestos has not been used in linoleum for something over twenty years. (I'm not sure, but I think it might be closer to thrity years). I am not a scientist, but I don't think that one removal would cause damage, especially if a protective mask were worn. (I've got a feeling I'm really going to get whacked over this one.)

The real problem we had with asbestos in our trade was with cement products, all of which used to contain the element. When you pour cement products out of the sack into a bucket to mix them, a portion of the stuff becomes airborne and can be breathed in. This is a process that takes place constantly on a tile job. We still have the problem with silica in grouts and thin set. Silica cuts your lungs up as badly or worse than asbestos, but I'm off the subject.

I checked out your site, Pat. Want to exchange links?

John

http://www.johnbridge.com

The house is new. The vinyl is being laid over a cement slab by the builder who is required to have a finished floor before our house closes. We want to install a ceramic tile on both the bathroom & kitchen vinyl floors after we close.
alcsh1

Ah, the situation is now clear. Remove the new vinyl and install your tiles with multi-purpose thin set.

John

Additionally, and I'll see if John concurs, make sure the flooring contractor "edge glues" the vinyl in place. That'll satisfy the powers that be and make it much easier to remove...

Flooring people may all do it that way now but I've been around a while..*G*

Good luck with your new home!

Pat

This is like an IM. Maybe I'll go back to AOL . . . Nah.

There are basically two types of vinyl linoleum: the one with the paper-like backing (cushion) gets glued down completely; then there is "loose lay," solid vinyl that is edge glued only. As the solid vinyl is much more expensive than the other, I doubt that's what you're getting.

Unless you stand there when the flooring goes in, it'll be glued down, and even then, I don't think you'll talk the installers into not gluing it completely. It would put them behind the eight-ball when someone nicks it moving in the appliances, for instance. The installers would be liable for a complete replacement. I could be wrong, but you wouldn't talk me into it.

It's really not a big deal to remove the stuff. We do it all the time with a long-handled floor scraper. I treat it as an aerobic opportunity. My heart doctor loves the idea.

John :-)

http://www.johnbridge.com