Boilers - Steam and Hot Water Systems - Why cant they make just one boiler!?!?

I'm in the market for a new boiler, VERY soon. My old Burnham V-75 has a crack that I have been babying for a few years, and it's time to replace it.

Heat loss calculation says I need 183,450 BTU.

The house has a mix of baseboard, heated concrete floor, and unit heaters.

Current boiler was originally oil fired, and has been converted to natural gas. Vents with a SideShot SideWall that I would like to get rid of.

I'm going to stick with natural gas.

I need a wall vent model.

I'm currently heating domestic water with electric. Not sure if I should stay with electric or not.

I'm getting overwhelmed with the boiler choices that are out there. I don't want dirt cheap, nor top of the line gold plated with the latest bells and whistles.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Kevin

Burnham ES2. (The 27 or 28.) It is neither gold plated nor bargain basement. Has some very nice new features, but still reliable cast iron. Plenty of horsepower for an indirect.

While cast iron is durable, I have to ask why not put in a condensing boiler that can at least lower the fuel bills ?

Non-condensing products will be a thing of the past soon I feel, and really for good reasons.

I am sure this will start a good chat :-)

I've been happy with my Triangle Tube Prestige Solo 110 so far. Do you have a huge house with lots of glass? Your heat loss seams high to me, but I'm no expert.

He's in Fairbanks, AK. Design temperature is -47F.....

It's very cold, and very dark, so not a lot of solar gain. Point being that modulation/condensing isn't as big a benefit as it is in the mid-latitudes.

ES2 is an 85% boiler. It can handle reasonably low return temps to ~100-110F with no special piping. Might be good for the slab. It's got ODR, so can take advantage of less than design conditions.

I have a 1600sq/ft shop with 16' ceilings, and 1700sq/ft living area with attached 2 car garage, all 8' ceiling. All windows are double pane. All 2x6 construction. R40 in the roof I think. It is an older house, but pretty tight. And I'm in Fairbanks, Alaska where we can have weeks of -40 or colder.

The boiler is located in the shop. There is a loop that goes from the shop to the house that is always circulating. I'm not in the posistion right now to revamp my whole system. I think idealy I need to install seperate boilers in the shop and house.

Can the ES2 be side vented?

Thanks

I would imagine a typical powervent (e.g., Tjernlund; Field Controls) could be used instead of chimney venting. rbeck would know. Hopefully he'll check in.

I currently have a Tjernlund installed. It is very noisy. A few people have told me it sucks heat off the boiler, and I should get rid of it. It has been on the boiler since it was converted to NG, which was 11-12 years ago. Before when it was oil fired there was a chimney. I was told they removed the chimney, for the reason that it will fill with ice and eventually choke it self off.

Even with the Tjernlund I have to clean the ice from the vent every few days when it is -25 or colder.

I guess I need a boiler that is a sidewall direct vent with no power ventor required.

Don't need it, but would like that.

The ES2-7 is 4 weeks out from my supplyer, and it would require a power venter.

I have $4500 to spend. I plan on using all the old pumps and valves.

He's in Fairbanks, AK. Design temperature is -47F.....

It's very cold, and very dark, so not a lot of solar gain. Point being that modulation/condensing isn't as big a benefit as it is in the mid-latitudes.

ES2 is an 85% boiler. It can handle reasonably low return temps to ~100-110F with no special piping. Might be good for the slab. It's got ODR, so can take advantage of less than design conditions.

I am gonna disagree on the modulating part of it.
You can always benefit from burner modulation, cause it ain't always -47 F (at least I really hope, cause that is flipping cold).

Actually you probably have a very wide temperature range during your heating season, more so then most. ie. 65F to -50F.. that's a pretty big delta T that the heatload of the building will change. A well designed system WILL modulate for sure.

I would still look closely at a ModCON... especially the Triangletube SOLO.
You have to be careful about placing any thing in the exhaust path such as bird screens, as they will plug up very fast. Even the intake can be a problem at very low temps, but I doubt you have the moisture int the air to worry about that like we do here.

Nope, not always -47 thank god! But we can have anywhere from -60 (haven't seen that in years though) to 90 in July.

I do do my own modulating I think. Like right now I'm only running the water temperature at 130-140. But it's 20 above right now. When it gets colder I turn it up. Is that what a self modulating boiler would do? Or an outdoor reset?

Thanks!

Edit:

Or maybe the modulation is like my Toyo 56 heater. Where it has a low med and high that it automatically runs at depending on the needed heat output?

I just remembered why I don't live in Alaska! I'm shivering just _thinking_ about -47 !

R40 in the attic? That's ALL? I'd double that. At least R60 anyway.

Double pane winders? I'd double that too! at least add storms to them.

Xiphias was saying that it's not AS MUCH of a benefit as the lower latitudes, because much more time is spent at design temps. Where we down here might get a DAY or TWO,THREE at design temp, they are probably getting a WEEK or TWO, THREE...

Of course there will be benefit, just not as much, but still worthwhile... I do like the ES2 what I've seen of it. And it probably fits the budget better.

Well so far the only thing I have found in the state is one of these.

PVG7 looks like it would work

Burnham Hydronics::SCG & PVG (http://burnham.com/products/residetial-boilers-indirect-water-heaters/scg-pvg)

That's the only one that is big enough and that is a direct vent.

Thoughts?

I do do my own modulating I think. Like right now I'm only running the water temperature at 130-140. But it's 20 above right now. When it gets colder I turn it up. Is that what a self modulating boiler would do? Or an outdoor reset?

Modulation refers to the output of the BURNER. Not necessarily the water temperature. When the system doesn't need to burn as much fuel, it will turn down the burners.

A standard non modulating boiler is like putting the gas pedal to the floor when the light turns green, and only lifting when you see RED.

A modulating boiler will let you only push the gas pedal down as hard as you need to in order to get where you are going.

Outdoor Reset is what controls the water temperature. And there are a couple types... there's a SYSTEM reset where the temp in the system is controlled, and a BOILER reset where the temp in the boiler is controlled.

Modulation and water temperature reset go hand in hand though. It makes sense to use them together. In fact, you almost HAVE to.

You might wanna re-think turning the boiler temp down that far... google up "Flue Gas Condensation" ... in a gas fired appliance, you don't want the return water coming back to the boiler at much less that 135° long term... if you are running the SUPPLY at that temp, the return is probably at least 20° cooler, and you are inviting trouble.

CONDENSING boilers are designed to not be damaged by the long term acidic condensate rotting out the boiler, flue pipe, and chimney.

The outdoor reset automatically adjusts the high limit temp. I believe modulating boilers adjust the BTU output of the flame.

Just to make sure you know, the ODR is an option on the ES2 and must be ordered in addition to the boiler. Same with the low water cut off.

Modulation will play a huge roll in fairbanks Alaska.
Look at the outdoor temp swings...
at -10 F the heat loss would be half of the load at -47 (don't quote me on the exact numbers).
The point I am making is that the boiler will not need to output full btu all that much. I might even argue that with a swing like that there is MORE need for higher modulation levels, then we have in southern Ontario even.

Not having lived that far north, and never planning on, I can't say for sure what the weather is but you could sure look at the degree days and enviromental data to get reference

BTW, great analogy NJ. I use that same gas pedal description myself all the time. People can comprehend that very well

Compelling point, TO.

PVG would be good. The biggest Revolution (RV7) is pretty close. Pair either with a tekmar reset control.

If you are looking for a modcon, then I second the Triangle Tube Solo

Hey kwgrant, check your PMs.

You have to be careful about placing any thing in the exhaust path such as bird screens, as they will plug up very fast.

Is this only the case in very extreme cold like Alaska, or should this be a concern with my "mild" design temp of -8 also? Should I remove the bird screen so it doesn't ice over?

In extreme cold areas the moisture in the exhaust will ice bridge the exhaust.

In colder areas where the humidity can be higher than extreme cold areas the intake can ice up due to velocity issues.

I would never remove the bird screen unless you have problems, and then I would re-install it once things warm up.

Prevent critters from going places you don't want them

I took a look at the Triangle Tube Solo. Looks like a nice unit. I wasn't able to call yet to see what the local price was. Pexsupply has the Solo 250 listed at $4700. A bit out of my price range. I can get the SCG7 for $3250, can be here on Tuesday. Then the only extra costs I would have would be the flue and some pipe. At least that's all I can think of at the moment.

What is your opinion on this statement off of the Burnham brouchure for the SCG&PVG;

PVG and SCG series boilers are simple to install, and require very little service and maintenance –especially compared to higher-efficiency condensing boilers. This can save homeowners hundreds of dollars in up-front installation costs, as well as several hundred dollars a year in maintenance and tune-up’s. Factoring in installation, annual service, and fuel usage - over time the operating costs of the SCG and PVG may be well below those of condensing boilers. While low temperature radiant heat systems are becoming more popular in newer buildings, many still utilize baseboard heat, convectors, air handlers. & indirect water heaters - which generally require higher water temperatures. Cast iron boilers are the best choice for these applications. The PVG and SCG deliver the winning combination of efficiency and durability in high-temp heating applications.

I'm getting fed up with all these choices. Now I'm working late to catch up on all the time I have taken to research this stuff. I really need some Beer 4U2

Thanks for all of your time and knowledge!

Kevin

I would agree that most Mod-Cons require special care in installation.
I would also agree that most Mod-cons require annual cleanings, but so do cast iron boilers.

The solo is a non-restrictive, down fired fire-tube boiler basically. The water moves around the fire-tubes, and therefore it does not need huge circs. to push water thru the boiler.
By the design it self cleans itself by the nature of the condensation path.

I do like the boiler, it may show. The boiler may not save you on heating bill by operating in condensing mode, but it will modulate down to match the load of the building.

You get a simple modulating burner, no pressure switches to fail. Built in outdoor reset, with a domestic hot water option with a variable time priority. It will vent with PVC, and not need special stainless steel venting. Price that stuff per foot....

If you fiqure what the true difference is between the two I bet you will find that the price difference pays back pretty fast.

Burnham boilers are the best cast iron IMHO, never had issues with them that where not resolved very fast.

PVG and SCG are good stuff. So's the TT.

Use a tekmar outdoor reset with the Burnhams.

What is your opinion on this statement off of the Burnham brouchure for the SCG&PVG;

PVG and SCG series boilers are simple to install, and require very little service and maintenance –especially compared to higher-efficiency condensing boilers. This can save homeowners hundreds of dollars in up-front installation costs, as well as several hundred dollars a year in maintenance and tune-up’s. Factoring in installation, annual service, and fuel usage - over time the operating costs of the SCG and PVG may be well below those of condensing boilers. While low temperature radiant heat systems are becoming more popular in newer buildings, many still utilize baseboard heat, convectors, air handlers. & indirect water heaters - which generally require higher water temperatures. Cast iron boilers are the best choice for these applications. The PVG and SCG deliver the winning combination of efficiency and durability in high-temp heating applications.



This is why I chose the ES2 over a mod/con. I have CI radiators and wouldn't have benefited very often from the condensing. I also didn't want to replace my boiler in 10-15 years as it seems to be needed with the mod/cons.

The cast iron boilers should be cleaned every year but will put up with being ignored better than a mod/con.

This is why I chose the ES2 over a mod/con. I have CI radiators and wouldn't have benefited very often from the condensing. I also didn't want to replace my boiler in 10-15 years as it seems to be needed with the mod/cons.

What water temps are you running at design ?
160 F ?
Here we can condense most if not all of the winter with CI rads.
Also as you add more / better insulation to the house your design water temp drops.

Mod-cons are the choice for CI rads.
It's not JUST condensing that you are buying, but a great modulating burner that gets more effiecient as its firing rate reduces.

I can't say anything about the life span of a mod-con, as few have been in service (in this continent) for that long.

What water temps are you running at design ?
160 F ?
Here we can condense most if not all of the winter with CI rads.
Also as you add more / better insulation to the house your design water temp drops.

Mod-cons are the choice for CI rads.
It's not JUST condensing that you are buying, but a great modulating burner that gets more effiecient as its firing rate reduces.

I can't say anything about the life span of a mod-con, as few have been in service (in this continent) for that long.

You're close; 155. That was part of the reason. The biggest part was the lifespan.

How much does the modulating save compared to mine shutting off when the water is up to temp? As things are now, the boiler cycles so infrequently the water gets down to room temp before there is another call for heat. And when it does come back on, it takes awhile to get all that water warmed up again.

When I made my decision, it's not as though I didn't think a mod/con would condense, I just felt that the cost of owning a mod/con was going to negate any of the fuel savings I would have had.

I took a look at the Triangle Tube Solo. Looks like a nice unit. I wasn't able to call yet to see what the local price was. Pexsupply has the Solo 250 listed at $4700. A bit out of my price range. I can get the SCG7 for $3250, can be here on Tuesday. Then the only extra costs I would have would be the flue and some pipe. At least that's all I can think of at the moment.


Keep in mind that you would get $1500 back at tax time if you go with the Triangle Tube (or any mod/con). That makes those two choices about the same price. Many gas companies are also doing their own rebates for mod/con boilers, which was another $600 for me but varies by location. With the federal tax credit and gas co. rebate, it ended up being cheaper for me to get the TT installed than it would have been for a conventional boiler. The savings in using PVC venting instead of stainless steel was just icing on the cake. Hopefully, the fuel savings will be another big scoop of icing for the cake, but I haven't had it long enough to tell that yet.

Well I have the SCG7 coming, it will be in town monday.

If I had planned ahead and it was summer I would seriously consider a mod/con boiler.

This is what I get for procrastinating and thinking that I could get the boiler to last another winter. It has had an intermitent leak from the same crack for a few years.

Leak was almost stopped yesterday. It leaked about 6 gallons today. I added 4 qourts of Boiler Liquid to get it where it is.

Now I need to get my plan ready to change this thing. Hopefully it stays warm into next week.

Any reccomendations on a boiler cleaner? I figure before I remove the old one I'll add some cleaning solution and flush out all the pipes. Or should I wait and do that after the new one is installed? The only stuff I have seen in the stores is Hercules.

Thanks

Hi, I've been watching this thread for a while. Almost replied early on but figured others would have better input for you.

After seeing how your thread evolved I figured that another 2 cents would be OK. With your location and how long it takes to get replacement parts, I would not go with a mod-con. There are too many proprietary parts in them. They are also a bit on the complicated side.

Unless you are willing to stock in-house replacement parts then a mod-con really isn't a good idea. Just my opinion, worth a couple of pennies.

I would go with a solid cast-iron 3-pass rock of a boiler. Nothing fancy. A system where your local parts house has repair items in stock.


Noted that you have a Burnham SCG7 on the way. Don't know much about it (I could google but it is Friday and I'm tired). OK, I wasn't that tired. A google turns up a cast iron boiler that should serve you well for many years.

{edit: forgot about cleaning the system. From what I've read about cleaning after installation, TSP works well. Now, these were steam systems and the cleaning was intended to mostly get the cutting oils and anti-rust oils out of the pipes.

But I can see how it would also be helpful in getting other compounds out of a hydronic system.}

Al.

Flush as much of that cr@p out of the system as you can before you install the new boiler.

Rhomar products should be up your way. Hydrosolv is a decent cleaner.
Residential Hydronic Radiant | Rhomar Water Management, Inc. (http://www.rhomarwater.com/products/residential-hydronic-radiant/)

The herc boiler cleaner will do if nothing else available.

There is no way to get exact numbers without very long term testing. There is some testing and applied formulas with some results that are eyeopening. The biggest fuel savings is from proper sizing (size by heat loss only) and proper piping of the boiler. The next biggest fuel savings is ODR (16-20% system savings). Add the third which is proper adjustment of ODR curves. The next is condensing which will come and go dependent on water temperature and the last is modulation.
With all that said the fuel savings difference between a product like the ES2 and condensing products in a standard retrofit situation is about 4 - 6%.
With that said there are variables like gravity hot water systems, mostly radiant systems or grossly over-radiated homes that improve the boiler efficiency. Once the return water temperature gets above about 126f the condensation stops and the efficiency starts to drop. Mod/cons will take a bigger hit on efficiency than cast iron products.
The next consideration is maintenance and repair parts costs. The more efficient the more maintenance may be required. We are in times of many choices. There are many boiler choices for many applications. If you want to be more green the mod/cons make a lot of sense as long as properly sized, and piped, outdoor reset use etc. I talk to many contractors that install mod/cons and do not install the outdoor sensor. Of most that do install outdoor sensor they do not change the reset curves.
Remember that cast iron has about 8 times the thermal transfer than the materials that mod/cons are made of. there is also a benefit to thermal mass and water volume as longer run times and energy storage. So I do not believe cast iron will ever go away and as Siggy stated in his PHC magazine (Jan 09) article states cast iron may make a comeback.

Well it's installed and purring away. I'm very anxious to see what next months gas bill will be. Had $440 last month!

Thanks for the help guys!

Kevin