Walls and Ceilings - Moisture damage?

I found a small patch of paint peeling back the other day and decided to scrape it clean, sand, prime, and repaint. Much to my dismay, as I scraped off a section, HUGE chunks of paint were coming off with no end in sight. The plaster I exposed seems to have some issues going on with moisture damage, though I'm not sure why or how to fix it. As you can see, the paint just stopped chipping off when I got to the next section on the left side of the window.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvHpPgCRJEI/AAAAAAAAAEk/n-TTWTzNXis/s800/Full%20view.jpg

This is on the ceiling that drops down to my big picture window, which can definitely be the coldest part of my house on a harsh winter day. I've noticed no humidity issues in the room before.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvHpPqWhlMI/AAAAAAAAAEo/cO6s01DoYeU/s800/Close%20up.jpg

There is nothing in the attic above, just about a foot or so of blown-in insulation. There are no vents that lead from the main level to the attic, and from what I can tell, there are no leaks in the attic itself. I plan on rechecking it again shortly. There is a distinct water line as you can see in this picture:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvHpP6L3_1I/AAAAAAAAAEs/p4-1obZ7GfM/s800/Water%20line.jpg

I have yet to feel any actual moisture on the ceiling. This paint job was done roughly 5 years ago. Any ideas? Thanks!

Hi Don, you are certainly in cold country so moisture from condensation is a suspect. The water line, although we don't know how old it is, clearly says you had water, probably from above. A moisture meter or IR camera would tell you if there is any current moisture there, but the source is what you want to find.

Any Ice dams or accumulation of pretty ice cicles in the deep winter? Is the window single pane or double?

When you say the ceiling drops down to the window, I need to understand that more to judge how it was constructed. A wider angle shot inside and maybe an outside shot of the window and roof line above it.

Bud

Strangely, it looks like the water started at the inside of the soffit, that is the room side not the outside, exterior. I would suspect an ice dam. Maybe the attic needs more ventilation. The first picture looks like there is a soffit outside the window at about the same level as the inside soffit. Is that the case? If so it might be that there is not a drip edge and that water is tracking across the outside soffit, finding its way inside then dripping onto the plaster. How old is the house? Am I right that this is plaster and not drywall? If so I have trouble accounting for the abrupt cut off where the paint is still bonded. Did the house ever go through a winter unheated?

Send the pictures Bud asked for.
Actually I think the repairs to the soffit are simple and cheap. But it's important to solve the problem first.

You need to repair the moisture problem before you can fix the paint problem.

Just a guess off the top of my head, but do you have a vent fan in the bathroom that exhausts into the attic?

That could be where your moisture is coming from.

A lot of the older homes were built without any type of ventilation to the outside for the bathroom fan and the bathroom has the most moisture of any room in the house and the moisture goes up into the attic and gets stuck there and builds up and freezes the joists in the attic and the moisture is transferred into the drywall or plaster.

How about a vent stack for the sewage?

A lot of responses so quickly! Here's the breakdown: Any Ice dams or accumulation of pretty ice cicles in the deep winter? Is the window single pane or double No, there are no gutters in front of the window itself and no icicles form there. The tree doesn't even touch the roof at all (save that one branch that died recently), and no icicles cling from the trees to the roof. The window is double pane, but the outside pane of glass is held in place by metal fasteners, like a picture frame. It is definitely NOT airtight. When you say the ceiling drops down to the window, I need to understand that more to judge how it was constructed. A wider angle shot inside and maybe an outside shot of the window and roof line above it. Here's a full shot from inside and out: http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvMTC-oLT4I/AAAAAAAAAGI/xSqs16jjpfw/s800/Full%20Front.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvMTDM6WvkI/AAAAAAAAAGM/JIkwMCDhRsw/s800/House%20Front.jpg The first picture looks like there is a soffit outside the window at about the same level as the inside soffit. Is that the case? If so it might be that there is not a drip edge and that water is tracking across the outside soffit, finding its way inside then dripping onto the plaster. How old is the house? Am I right that this is plaster and not drywall? If so I have trouble accounting for the abrupt cut off where the paint is still bonded. Did the house ever go through a winter unheated? As you can see, the inside soffit exists because the window is set out where the outside soffit would be. It looks, feels, and crumbles like plaster; It does appear to be that there are a couple "seams" running along the inside soffit above the window. And, oddly, last winter was the coldest the house was kept at, ranging from 50-55 degrees for months. As I said, this window is easily the coldest part and very well have been colder though I never once saw any frost build up or anything on the window. I had a plastic sheet taped to the outside edges of the frame to try and limit heat loss. As far as age of the house, from what I can recall it was built mid-to-late 40's. Just a guess off the top of my head, but do you have a vent fan in the bathroom that exhausts into the attic? Had, yes. Never in my time at this house, so it was all disconnected and the fan hole patched over at very least over 5 years ago. The exhaust tubing and blower motor still exist in the attic, just kind of strung up not leading anywhere. Currently, there is no vent in the bathroom. When I originally moved in, I don't recall there being any obvious damage above the window. But, time and memory never seem to be our friends. How about a vent stack for the sewage? No idea. Where would one even be in my house? I guess I assume it'd be in the cinder-block chimney leading out, in which case it only opens outside of my house. When I went climbing around in my attic, I saw that the very very front (over the front soffit) there was no insulation. At least, none additional to what may be between the wood and plaster/drywall. Unfortunately, before I could get a really good look, the light blew out and I had to feel my way back on the rafters hidden beneath insulation. Yay for not stepping through my ceiling! Beer 4U2

From looking at that drop ceiling, one has to consider how it was constructed as it seems to correspond to the problem area. Drops like that can create air paths where inside warm air finds it's way into the attic above. Most insulation will not stop air movement. Once the warm air enters the cold attic, moisture can condense on the insulation or bottom of the roof deck and form ice, which later thaws and causes water damage.

Your description of the dual panes of glass sounds more like a single pane of glass and a storm window. That would be on the cold side. If walls or ceilings get cold enough, interior moisture can condense directly on them, but I would not expect the water stain, so it still looks like water from above.

Let's see what others say.

Bud

Not having a exhaust fan in the bathroom is just as bad as having one that vents into the attic.

Where do you suspect all the warm moist air goes when you take a bath or shower?

1940's homes were not known for much if any insulation.

Zonolite or other types of early insulation were not the best insulators and you may or may not have a asbestos abatement problem lurking in the future.

Zonolite Attic Insulation Property Damage Claims: Canada Zonolite Claims (http://www.asbestosnetwork.com/news/nw_090408_zonolite_insulation.htm)

Not having a exhaust fan in the bathroom is just as bad as having one that vents into the attic.

Where do you suspect all the warm moist air goes when you take a bath or shower?


Obviously to magic shower land, where house issues fade away!

I've been planning on putting a vent in that runs out of the bathroom eventually, but had in the meantime triple-coated waterproof paint in there. Being all tile besides, I've yet to see any sign of water damage in there.

Any advice on how to vent that room, then? I figured should I run the vent into the attic, but have it run in an air-tight duct to an outlet in the side of the house, but had no idea how to rig that. So I haven't done it yet.

Check your roof really well. You could have a valley/gutter problem on that end of the window.

You probably have gypsum plaster on gypsum lath. A house of that vintage could still have wood lath but I bet against it. That will take a little moisture without destroying it.

I'm betting on a condensation issue.

For some reason it is picking on that one side, as much as we can tell anyway. If say that gable roof attic space is not open to the rest of the attic (i.e., when they built it they sheathed the entire main house roof, then built the gable on the sheathing without a cutout), one could theorize that warm room air is migrating into that dead air space, where it more readily could condense, compared to attic space tht moves air.

Did you know you have leaves in your gutter? :D

A possibility is that perhaps from the way your driving rains happen, is that only during a real hard rain, it bounces off that apron roof (above the window)and up under the aluminum coil stock formed facia, and gets behind the siding and runs down back there behind that apron roof flashing.

The detail in the right corner there, where the gutter ends, has enough stuff going on there for one to take a real close look at and imagine perhaps what could happen if snow builds up there, or, once again, driving rains.

I wonder why the fascia there looks different from on the left side of the window, out of curiousity. Take a look at the pic, folks. The top of the gutter - to the right, and also the section to the left - sits above that apron roof area the same height to the top of the gutter. Yet the facia on the right, below the gutter, looks almost rounded, and more of it shows, compared to over at the left. Did someone aluminum wrap that right side, but not the left? That could explain it. It almost looks like that is a possiblity.

If say that gable roof attic space is not open to the rest of the attic (i.e., when they built it they sheathed the entire main house roof, then built the gable on the sheathing without a cutout), one could theorize that warm room air is migrating into that dead air space, where it more readily could condense, compared to attic space tht moves air.

...I never thought of that. In fact, when I went into the attic, I didn't even notice the second gable--it may be as you have said, completely separate from the main-house attic space and thus even colder in the dead of winter. If this is the case, what would the fix be? And more importantly, how could I do it with minimal cost?

Did you know you have leaves in your gutter?

Yup. Planned on working on that after my trees had emptied and two days of continuous sun.

Crap. That's today.

The detail in the right corner there, where the gutter ends, has enough stuff going on there for one to take a real close look at and imagine perhaps what could happen if snow builds up there, or, once again, driving rains.


Most of our storms do tend to batter that particular corner, just the way the wind blows here from our nearby lakes. Guess I should check the caulk job while I'm getting leaves down, eh?

I wonder why the fascia there looks different from on the left side of the window, out of curiousity. Take a look at the pic, folks. The top of the gutter - to the right, and also the section to the left - sits above that apron roof area the same height to the top of the gutter. Yet the facia on the right, below the gutter, looks almost rounded, and more of it shows, compared to over at the left. Did someone aluminum wrap that right side, but not the left? That could explain it. It almost looks like that is a possiblity.

Not sure what you're seeing here, but I'll take a good look and hopefully snap a few pics while I'm up on the ladder. Anything to get this fixed!

Here's the pics I got today:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvSQwe44ukI/AAAAAAAAAGU/SW0fhqWOmkg/s800/Exposed%20corner.jpg

This is the corner on the side of the window that is damaged, and this is the other corner:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvSQwqI7OPI/AAAAAAAAAGc/naoyD-NJkpE/s800/Opposite%20corner.jpg

I also noticed this single area of shingles that is slightly lifted, just about where the peeling occurred on the inside:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_4ro5CyYPOoY/SvSQwgpag-I/AAAAAAAAAGY/BP_QTzxlZKk/s800/Lift%20in%20shingles.jpg

It looked a lot worse in person. Anyway, any more advice/help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

On your first new pic, the metal fascia wrap falls short of getting up under the drip edge. :eek: Turbulant blowing rain and plain cold air can blow in there. And depending on insulation in that corner, that could be also causing your problem. And who knows what that exterior right corner area looks like come winter time, with snow/ice up there?

This is one of these jobs where you just have to get up there and look at the confluence of everything there, and try to seal stuff as good as you can, without having to redo stuff the right way, which might get a little expensive.

When did this problem develop? Any relationship to the exterior work out there?

Have you ever noticed moisture on that ceiling area, in the winter? If so, that could signify moist air condensing on the warm living room ceiling, up against the likely cold and maybe not well insulated narrowing triangle area of attic up there. You do not have much of an overhang. An overhang on houses accomplishes several things. One thing is that the time the roof starts gaining in height (especially in homes with 5/12 or steeper roofs), it will be well above the exterior wall. But with your roof/exterior wall, you do not have that much. Therefore the underside of the roof sheathing is closer to the ceiling, with less space to get insulation.

Still no solution has surfaced. I keep checking areas, up in the attic or out on my ladder, and can find nothing. I'm pretty sure it is a condensation issue, but have as of yet not figured out how to avoid/correct it.

the metal fascia wrap falls short of getting up under the drip edge.
This is just smoke and mirrors, or should I say shadows and angles. It does actually get up under the drip edge, just a photographic nuance. But, is it possible to point the fascia up more? Maybe get some caulk up in there?

Are you able to see or get into that small front gable section? Or did they, as I suggested, maybe simply build that gable ontop the main house roof, without cutting an opening in it? Check that out good. It is possible moisture collects up in there and you might even see signs of mildewed sheathing up there, if you can get to it.

According to your photos, it sure looks like the fascia falls short. Did you know that with water tension, water does not readily drip down off a vertical surface? But has a tendency to cling and run back along adjoining horizonal surfaces? That is the reason why on some drip edge, thay kick out the bottom edge, to help the water drip off. Yours looks pretty flat, vertically.

Actually, I just got thru looking at that first of the latest photos again, at how they wrapped the soffit and fascia. It HAS to be short, because the underside of that 1 1/4? inch exposure on the soffit, comes straight out horizontally, without tucking back up under the fascia! It's like you need another piece of white facia to slip up under the drip edge and hang down below that horizontal soffit maybe 1/4 -1/2 inch.