Boilers - Steam and Hot Water Systems - Triangle Tube- long warm up time?

I recently had one of these installed. Installation was a nightmare; don't ask. But now it's in. We typically turn our heat way down at night so it usually won't even kick on, and the same when we go away. Boiler takes hours to heat the house after it has been off; Contractor claims that these boilers don't need to be turned way down because they are so efficient, and if you do it's normal that they take so long to reheat the house. My 1929 coal conversion previously in didn't have this problem. Is this bs? I think it is.

I have a Triangle Tube also. Like you, I'm having a very hard time unlearning the need to set back your thermostats when you're not around or sleeping. The reason it takes so long to warm back up is that it's not very cold outside, so the outdoor reset sensor is keeping the boiler water from getting very hot. Believe it or not, this actually does save fuel.

Now that I've finally got my head wrapped around this, I've had my thermostats set to 67* with no setbacks. The boiler modulates up and down as it needs to in relation to the temperature outside. If you want big setbacks with quick recovery time, you're going to have to change the outdoor reset curve settings to use much hotter water. This will negate a lot of the fuel savings that you would get by using cooler water. Keep the thermostats set to one temp for a month and see how your fuel bill looks. That's what I'm doing, but I haven't actually gotten a full gas bill since the install yet.

I know you said not to ask, but I'm curious, what happened with the install to make it such a nightmare?

Ok, if you must know, contractor broke up my asbestos covered boiler that they weren't supposed to touch; contaminated my basement and required a 20K clean up! How's that for a nightmare.

Yup, that definitely sounds like it would qualify as a nightmare. Who got stuck with the $20k bill?

But I don't want my house at 67 at night. That's uncomfortable for me. Also, it's been quite cold; in the 20's the last couple of nights.

They did, eventually. Luckily I'm an attorney.

I'm right there with you, and I'm still learning how to tweak the boiler.

Is there a temperature that you would consider to be
comfortable for both day and night? If not, I think you can still do setbacks but, with the current settings, you would have to allow a much longer window of time for recovery. If fast recovery times are more important to you than fuel savings, you can certainly configure your boiler to work that way. I think the boost setting would help with that, but I'm not completely sure how that works. What I do know is that any time you have to use very hot water, the boiler is going to use more fuel. What I'm finding is that you really have to experiment with the ODR setpoints to find a good compromise.

If all you really want is the boiler to behave exactly like your old one, you could disconnect the ODR reset altogether. That would force the boiler to kick on and off with a high water temp all the time, but it would make it much less efficient and negate the advantages of having a mod/con boiler.

Should I just set the thermostat to kick on 2 hours earlier?

Depends on your boiler settings and how deep your setback is. From my experience, 2 hours wasn't nearly enough to recover from a 5 degree setback with the default settings. It recovered at a rate of about 1 degree per hour. I got to the point where it was going to take so long to recover from the setback that it didn't even make sense to set it back anymore.

It still doesn't seem right, but having the thermostat set to 67* all the time actually has been quite comfortable. The same thermostat setting seemed a lot warmer with my old boiler because there was a lot more heat coming off the baseboards every time the boiler kicked on and it would overshoot the mark. With the new boiler, that doesn't really happen so you may find it more comfortable even though the thermostat setting is warmer than you used to like it.

I don't think what you were told is BS, but perhaps they should have told you something about the functions of the various settings on the controller. There's lots of parameters that need to be 'tweaked' to get it all aligned with your homes' heating needs. This seems to be an area that is too often neglected by the installers of the high eff units... they just whack the thing in, leave all the 'defaults' set where they are, pack their tools and leave.

It really should behoove the homeowner to study the manual, understand how the controller works, and learn to program it and tweak it themselves. Contractors have to make a buck, and can't spend the time needed to do this and still maintain the profit margin they need to in order to stay in business.

I think the boost setting would help with that, but I'm not completely sure how that works.

In another thread, the General asked about 'boost', and 'parallel shift'. I'm not too hip on the TT systems, but I did recently read up on the 'boost' function on the ES2...

There are, I think, TWO parameters for the BOOST function (at least on the ES2, perhaps TT is similar). One is a time, and one may be a temperature.

What they do is this: If the thermostat doesn't satisfy before the BOOST TIME 'runs out', the controller will increase the water temperature the specified amount in order to recover the heat in the space faster.

As an example: Say you've got the BOOST TIME set to 15 minutes. If the t'stat doesn't satisfy in that amount of time, the controller will 'kick it up a notch' to heat the home faster.

The 'parallel shift' MAY be something similar, but as I said, I'm no expert... maybe a real expert will answer. Gee, WHO could that be?

There are, I think, TWO parameters for the BOOST function (at least on the ES2, perhaps TT is similar). One is a time, and one may be a temperature.

Thanks for the Boost explanation Trooper. It looks like the TT only has a boost setting for time, not temperature so it must have a preset temp increase. It sounds like Boost definitely would help with the OP's slow recovery time, but wouldn't that also greatly reduce the efficiency of the outdoor reset curve? You certainly wouldn't get anything close to constant circulation if the water temp kept getting kicked up after 15 minutes.

While I am not WHO,
I can do more (and have) with the MCBA than the factory has done.

The boost feature will increase the CALCULATED water by 18 F after the predetermined (adjustable) time period has elapsed.
So if it's set to 15 minutes, then every 15 minutes the water temp set point will raise 18 F while there is a constant demand on TT.

Parrallel shift is used along with TT to shift the curve down.
So if the water temp setpoint was calculated to say 120 F with TT closed then you can program it to drop to say 100 F with TT open. This may put the unit into WWSD if it's warm enough outside.

Both functions are fun, but the boost function seems to be more contractor friendly. I will use it when I get the feeling the customer will set back.

Be aware that too much set back will cost you more to re heat than you saved by setting back !!!

TO

I guess the idea is to set the boost time properly... make it long enough so that it only boosts when it NEEDS to. Of course you wouldn't want it boosting during normal operation.

TO answered whilst I was watching TV! and said something that I like, so I'm going to repeat it!

Be aware that too much set back will cost you more to re heat than you saved by setting back !!!

I guess the idea is to set the boost time properly... make it long enough so that it only boosts when it NEEDS to. Of course you wouldn't want it boosting during normal operation.

Yeah it's better to boost the water temp once or twice and satisfy the call for heat faster, so the system can stabilize back to the desired temp

On my ES2, the boost will increase the water temp 10 degrees each time the boiler fires if the heat call hasn't been satisfied in the set amount of time. It can be set to 0, 10, 20, or 30 minutes.

My new boiler definitely takes longer than my old boiler to bring the house back up to temp. That's because my old boiler was so much larger than I needed. I set my boost time to 30 minutes and it has made a difference than having 0 boost. I'm still not sure if my set backs are too much. I like my nighttime set back because I find it more comfortable. I have one of my zones set pretty low for the day and I'm wondering if it may be too low. It hasn't been cold enough outside to actually cool off to that point. Not sure how to approach it.

But isn't the ultimate goal to have constant circulation that only replaces the heat that is lost? If you have a boost set, wouldn't it be impossible to reach that goal?

Yes, constant circ to the extent possible... but when you are recovering from a setback period, it's an 'upset' in the system that needs to be dealt with. I doubt you could ever actually achieve 100% constant circ, no matter how carefully you dialed in the controls. There's always gonna be something throwing a wrench in the works...

Boost makes perfect sense to recover from a setback, but I don't think the controller is smart enough to only use it for that purpose. If you're anywhere close to constant circulation, the water temp would get kicked up every 30 minutes and cause the thermostat to stop calling for heat, right? Wouldn't this cause short cycling when you're not trying to recover from a setback?

Too bad there isn't a way to tell the controller to only use boost at certain times of day. I guess an indoor reset control would work well for that as well.

But isn't the ultimate goal to have constant circulation that only replaces the heat that is lost? If you have a boost set, wouldn't it be impossible to reach that goal?

I guess that's the arguement about setbacks and whether or not they make sense anymore in the context of saving energy. I've been thinking about leaving my thermostat on a constant setting, but I find 70-72 to be too warm for when I'm sleeping. Shoulder seasons would be impossible to have constant circ because I don't have a mod/con.

I suppose you could get near constant circ with the boost if you are able to provide a touch more BTU's than what your loss is. That way the heat gets satisfied in, let's say, 29 minutes and maybe 5 minutes later the thermostat would call for heat again.

Let's not forget about DHW. That will throw a wrench in the works as well.

I suppose you could get near constant circ with the boost if you are able to provide a touch more BTU's than what your loss is. That way the heat gets satisfied in, let's say, 29 minutes and maybe 5 minutes later the thermostat would call for heat again.

Yeah, that would work if you could dial it in with that level of accuracy, but I can't imagine anyone could get it that close.

Let's not forget about DHW. That will throw a wrench in the works as well.

Yeah, I could see how DHW would change things, but I'm not using the boiler for DHW so it doesn't have an impact in my case.

Yeah, that would work if you could dial it in with that level of accuracy, but I can't imagine anyone could get it that close.

It would be difficult. It's not just the outside temp but also the wind. My house is old and is affected a lot by how hard the wind is blowing. The loss from my upstairs zone is different from my downstairs as well.

It's not just the outside temp but also the wind.

Lest we forget that big spotlight in the sky! Solar gain, aka inSOLation.

I am so glad to find this thread. I have had the TT Excellence for one week - felt comfy; three days ago contractor came back and installed outdoor sensor and replaced t-stat with digital with setbacks (had a Honewell dial) - I have been cold ever since!

Ambient t-stat reads 69; set to 68 (I have thermometers near t-stat that read 65 and 67 respectively, because I thought t-stat was defective); outdoor reads 62. I am going outside into the sun so I can warm up! I am not pleased.:(

How can we help? Any questions you would like answered?

I can make a suggestion: Start by understanding how the control operates the boiler, check out the various settings, and make sure that it is set up properly. Your contractor may have left all the settings at their defaults...

I'm sorta surprised that the thermostat seems to be 'off'... what make/model is it?

What make/model thermostat?

First - thanks for asking what you can do to help. Honeywell RTH/RTH221 - Programmable. There is no Central Air. With former boiler (oil) , I kept circular dial Honeywell t-stat at 65. It would kick the boiler on when ambient dropped to 63 and would kick-off when it reached 67. Thus am used to a coolish house. With new T-stat, started with these settings, but ambient read 66, so nothing kicked on. I have since set it to 68, to get ambient up to 66. I have a table in which I have been recording readings when I remember to do so. Today after reading these posts, I jotted down the CH and DHW Ignition Counter numbers, too. The Contractor has to come back to do one other thing. What is the data that I need to collect and supply to him so that there is more and consistent heat? The house became less comfortable once new T-stat installed and Outdoor reset was programmed. I get a sense that there are several moving parts, and you are right, I do not yet understand the exact relationship of all, but am willing to learn to fix the issue. Thanks.

I am so glad to find this thread. I have had the TT Excellence for one week - felt comfy; three days ago contractor came back and installed outdoor sensor and replaced t-stat with digital with setbacks (had a Honewell dial) - I have been cold ever since!

Ambient t-stat reads 69; set to 68 (I have thermometers near t-stat that read 65 and 67 respectively, because I thought t-stat was defective); outdoor reads 62. I am going outside into the sun so I can warm up! I am not pleased.:(

What is your heat emitters ?
What is para #1, and #4 set at ?

I can tell you how to adjust the top of the curve, but your contractor is going to have to come back and adjust the "foot" of the curve as that is really the issue.

I guess that's the arguement about setbacks and whether or not they make sense anymore in the context of saving energy. I've been thinking about leaving my thermostat on a constant setting, but I find 70-72 to be too warm for when I'm sleeping. Shoulder seasons would be impossible to have constant circ because I don't have a mod/con.

I suppose you could get near constant circ with the boost if you are able to provide a touch more BTU's than what your loss is. That way the heat gets satisfied in, let's say, 29 minutes and maybe 5 minutes later the thermostat would call for heat again.

There is a fancy set-up in the TT MCBA that will actually allow you to shift the outdoor reset curve down once the T-stat has satisified. Basically the stat becomes a timer and a high limit.
Set your setback schedule at the stat time wise and your max temp you want during that schedule. You can then tailor the water temps to provide the indoor temps you want.
This can keep the water in the loops a bit warmer and offer somewhat quicker warm up from set-back.
The real question is how far to set-back... no more than 3 or 4 degrees with slow radiation I would say.

1 = 140
4 = 100

Programming set back = 3 degrees.

Set your setback schedule at the stat time wise and your max temp you want during that schedule.

Thus, if I want house to be 66 degrees, when I walk thru door at 1530, how does that translate to programming T-stat and water temps?

Also, why is the t-stat 2 degrees off when measuring ambient temp? Do I need a more expensive model to get this right or should I just overcompensate with my settings?

1 = 140
4 = 100

Programming set back = 3 degrees.



Thus, if I want house to be 66 degrees, when I walk thru door at 1530, how does that translate to programming T-stat and water temps?

Also, why is the t-stat 2 degrees off when measuring ambient temp? Do I need a more expensive model to get this right or should I just overcompensate with my settings?

Paramater 4 (CH heating setpoint) is way to low for anything other than radiant infloor.

For CI rads I set this at 140, if you like cool interior try 136.
Goto PARA 4, then use the up arrow and increase it to what you want then hit store. The display should flash or blink once to indicate it accepted the setting.

I find people get real fixed on what the thermostat reads. If it reads 65 and you are comfortable, then leave it there if not turn it up or down. One would think that all thermostats and thermometers would read the same, but no. I have seen 2 or 3 degrees difference on $400.00 thermostats...

Many stats have provisions to adjust what the display shows.

1 = 140
4 = 100


Wow, no wonder you're having issues getting the heat you want. The default setting for parameter 4 is 186*, so the contractor must have changed that. But I would be concerned that he doesn't understand the system if he set it that low. I currently have mine set to 160*, but I'm going to try to get that lower when it's cold enough outside to play with it. With my current curve settings and the mild temps outside, I've been seeing water temps in the neighborhood of 108*.

General and TOH -

1) Just so we are all on the same page. I have radiant ceiling, i.e., pipes are embedded in plaster ceiling. You are still recommending your respective temps with this configuration?

With former oil boiler, low/high on aquastat was 140/160 - maybe 165 in winter. There is some cracking of ceiling plaster, so the thought was to lower h2o temp going thru pipes to lessen expansion/contraction. Is the PARA 4 setting the equivalent of the High setting on the aquastat?

2) On top of TT Excellence is an automatic air vent - I think it goes to the hot water tank inside compartment. Owner's manual indicates that each month, one takes off vent cap and tests vent. And tighten cap back on and then loosen it one full turn to allow vent to operate properly. However, when it is open it leaks at a good rate. Is it OK to leave shut, and just bleed it periodically?

3) Contractor has to come back to program one more minor setting. So, he is still around to make adjustments.

Thank you very, very much for asking clarifying questions and supplying answers. It is really appreciated.

TO - 140 minimum for cast iron radiation? Way too high. I have a quadraplex operating with cast iron rads operating on 90 & 125f. I single home operating on 100 and 150f to mention 2 in particular. Did an ES2 this past weekend for a friend and he is set at 100 and 140f. Have to see how he works tis winter. I would never set the minimum above 100 with cast iron radiation. The upper side depends on heat loss and amount of radiation.

TO - 140 minimum for cast iron radiation? Way too high. I have a quadraplex operating with cast iron rads operating on 90 & 125f. I single home operating on 100 and 150f to mention 2 in particular. Did an ES2 this past weekend for a friend and he is set at 100 and 140f. Have to see how he works tis winter. I would never set the minimum above 100 with cast iron radiation. The upper side depends on heat loss and amount of radiation.

Perhaps you misread what I was trying to say.
140 F at design condition os what we use up here in Ontario.
Sure 130 might be doable as well, and I do try to grind down the water temps. People like to be warm more than they like to save money and waste time playing with water temps.
Being cold is seen as an inconvenience here.

Is that more understandable, sometimes I am guilty of not really typing the thought very well.

General and TOH -

1) Just so we are all on the same page. I have radiant ceiling, i.e., pipes are embedded in plaster ceiling. You are still recommending your respective temps with this configuration?

With former oil boiler, low/high on aquastat was 140/160 - maybe 165 in winter. There is some cracking of ceiling plaster, so the thought was to lower h2o temp going thru pipes to lessen expansion/contraction. Is the PARA 4 setting the equivalent of the High setting on the aquastat?

2) On top of TT Excellence is an automatic air vent - I think it goes to the hot water tank inside compartment. Owner's manual indicates that each month, one takes off vent cap and tests vent. And tighten cap back on and then loosen it one full turn to allow vent to operate properly. However, when it is open it leaks at a good rate. Is it OK to leave shut, and just bleed it periodically?

3) Contractor has to come back to program one more minor setting. So, he is still around to make adjustments.

Thank you very, very much for asking clarifying questions and supplying answers. It is really appreciated.

Only done one job with in ceiling heat, not real popular. Not real efficient.

The beauty of knowing that PARA 4 is in fact you operating high limit will allow you to raise or lower it from time to time to find the right water temp.

Start at 140 and see how it goes, if it gets cold in the home when it starts to get real cold out you will need to turn that paramater up.

Once the air is purged from the vent I don't see why you would need to do it regularly. I will try to find that in the manual.

TOH - air vents are TACO and appear to be the Hy-Vent model.

From another forum, two opposing opinions: 1) these always leak, so keep them shut and bleed them periodically or 2) they are leaking because gunk is in the system causing the internal float to become clogged open. Thus overriding the automatic air vent feature and allowing air to get into system.

I am leaning towards 2nd explanation, because after turning DHW back on after boiler install was done, the shower and tub faucets began to drip for the first time ever. I was told it was probably due to dirt/soldering junk got into the water and was gumming up valve.

Fix is to flush the system? just the clogged air vent?

TOH - air vents are TACO and appear to be the Hy-Vent model.

From another forum, two opposing opinions: 1) these always leak, so keep them shut and bleed them periodically or 2) they are leaking because gunk is in the system causing the internal float to become clogged open. Thus overriding the automatic air vent feature and allowing air to get into system.

I am leaning towards 2nd explanation, because after turning DHW back on after boiler install was done, the shower and tub faucets began to drip for the first time ever. I was told it was probably due to dirt/soldering junk got into the water and was gumming up valve.

Fix is to flush the system? just the clogged air vent?

These are two different waters.
The autovent I believe you refer to is on the boiler water side, and the domestic, well is in the built in indirect fired DHW tank.

Of all the TT products I have put in, I have yet to see one of these leak. We do alot of new construction so there may not be sludge in the system, but still.

Me, I would leave it open and inspect every week or so until you are comfortable that it is not an issue.

I Found a similar thread over on the Main Wall at HH.
Search "two temp TT" for a responce by PIPER that might work for you. I could see you using a 2 stage programible T-Stat, stage 1 being hooked to the boiler heat call, and stage 2 being used to disconnect the ODS to force the boiler water hotter. When stage 2 call is done (typically 2* below stage 1) then the boiler would return to setting water temp by outdooor temps.

What do you think????


Tim

That could certainly work, and is not a bad solution.
The logic is built into the controls to boost the water temp based on how long the stat has called for heat. Kind of re inventing the wheel a bit.
Take it one step further, use the t/stat to open a zone vale or turn on a pump. Use the second stage to close the TT thereby raising the ODR curve and then you add boost for a third stage of water temp.