Insulation, Radiant and Vapor Barriers - spray on insulation
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diy99999
10-27-09, 06:26 PM
Anyone know an alternative spray on foam,non toxic,no voc, that sprays on and sticks to open joist areas and
doesnt cost a stupid amount like all the spray contractors
and disposable kits you can get online..???There has to be a cheaper way......
doesnt cost a stupid amount like all the spray contractors
and disposable kits you can get online..???There has to be a cheaper way......
Bud9051
10-27-09, 06:53 PM
Hi diy, if you find one let me know. As great and wonderful as foams are, I have to believe someone is getting rich off of these prices. There are soy based and other "green" formulations available, but none at what I would call a reasonable price.
There are places where the cost can be justified. You mention open joists, are you looking at a basement/crawlspace or attic rafters? One of the drawbacks of foam is the need to cover it with a fire rated material. There are spray on liquids that meet fire codes, but you guessed it, they are expensive as well.
Tell us what your project is and we will offer other solutions. Also, are you in the north or south?
Bud
There are places where the cost can be justified. You mention open joists, are you looking at a basement/crawlspace or attic rafters? One of the drawbacks of foam is the need to cover it with a fire rated material. There are spray on liquids that meet fire codes, but you guessed it, they are expensive as well.
Tell us what your project is and we will offer other solutions. Also, are you in the north or south?
Bud
diy99999
10-28-09, 11:25 AM
if I had to cover it I would never use it.
digger doug
10-29-09, 01:04 PM
http://forum.doityourself.com/insulation-radiant-vapor-barriers/379363-diy-amateur-does-foam-insulation.html
AND
DIY attic insulation blower? - EcoRenovator (http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/335-diy-attic-insulation-blower.html)
AND
DIY attic insulation blower? - EcoRenovator (http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/335-diy-attic-insulation-blower.html)
Bud9051
10-29-09, 02:08 PM
diy "if I had to cover it I would never use it. "
So far I am unaware of any expanding spary on foams that do not need to be covered to meet fire codes.
The exceptions are local code departments who don't care, or the foam companies who look the other way and casually say you can take care of that when you get a chance, and out the door they go with your check.
The catch would come when the building has a problem or has to be inspected for insurance purposes of sale.
There is one product that is floating around, but I have never seen it or talked to anyone who has used it, Foamcrete. It's claimed r-value is lower, but it is made of concrete and thus could possibly meet fire codes. But I would have to know a lot more about it before I could recommend it.
Bud
So far I am unaware of any expanding spary on foams that do not need to be covered to meet fire codes.
The exceptions are local code departments who don't care, or the foam companies who look the other way and casually say you can take care of that when you get a chance, and out the door they go with your check.
The catch would come when the building has a problem or has to be inspected for insurance purposes of sale.
There is one product that is floating around, but I have never seen it or talked to anyone who has used it, Foamcrete. It's claimed r-value is lower, but it is made of concrete and thus could possibly meet fire codes. But I would have to know a lot more about it before I could recommend it.
Bud
digger doug
11-02-09, 06:48 AM
There is one product that is floating around, but I have never seen it or talked to anyone who has used it, Foamcrete. It's claimed r-value is lower, but it is made of concrete and thus could possibly meet fire codes. But I would have to know a lot more about it before I could recommend it.
Bud
Bud is right on all point's here, and the insulcrete I researched
(for a commercial building) is not waterproof whatsoever,
and I don't think could be applied on a ceiling.
I did my own rudimentary testing of applied foam
(removed from a neighbors remodel, was only 2 years old)
cellulose, and the "spray can" foams.
The cellulose I eventually applied, this year I welded in some
brackets onto the columns (they have the overspray on them)
The welding (stick welding) ignited the cellulose, but I watched
the fire went out, as soon as I was done welding.
The fire lasted maybe 15 second's after I lifted my helmet,
I was nervous at first (to put it out) but watched as
it didn't spread much, and the borax (fire retardent)
took over.
Also, the fumes were not nearly as toxic as when I tested
my foam samples (and those I tested outside, this was
inside).
The problem (as I see it) any cementatious foam, including
plaster, that is a good fire resitor, will not be pliable
enough to take any building movement.
Also, most cementatious materials contain water, so the
insulation value is low.
Hence the need for separate insulation, then a fire
stop over top.
On a final note, I have seen cellulose with glue
(what I did) applied in commercial buildings, mostly
warehouse or manufacturing. And these meet various
fire approvals with no covering. I can't remember
what the F.M. guy's said when I mentioned it (we
were doing a sprinkler audit at the time).
I do know they did not want to see ANY foam.
Bud
Bud is right on all point's here, and the insulcrete I researched
(for a commercial building) is not waterproof whatsoever,
and I don't think could be applied on a ceiling.
I did my own rudimentary testing of applied foam
(removed from a neighbors remodel, was only 2 years old)
cellulose, and the "spray can" foams.
The cellulose I eventually applied, this year I welded in some
brackets onto the columns (they have the overspray on them)
The welding (stick welding) ignited the cellulose, but I watched
the fire went out, as soon as I was done welding.
The fire lasted maybe 15 second's after I lifted my helmet,
I was nervous at first (to put it out) but watched as
it didn't spread much, and the borax (fire retardent)
took over.
Also, the fumes were not nearly as toxic as when I tested
my foam samples (and those I tested outside, this was
inside).
The problem (as I see it) any cementatious foam, including
plaster, that is a good fire resitor, will not be pliable
enough to take any building movement.
Also, most cementatious materials contain water, so the
insulation value is low.
Hence the need for separate insulation, then a fire
stop over top.
On a final note, I have seen cellulose with glue
(what I did) applied in commercial buildings, mostly
warehouse or manufacturing. And these meet various
fire approvals with no covering. I can't remember
what the F.M. guy's said when I mentioned it (we
were doing a sprinkler audit at the time).
I do know they did not want to see ANY foam.
Bud9051
11-02-09, 07:07 AM
Hi digger and thanks for the input.
As for seeing foam, I have read/talked about two different products that are being used to spray over foam and meet the fire marshal's requirements. Now, they could be the same product, just being offered by different companies, I haven't gotten to that point as yet. In my state, the FM has approved one for use in plenums, get this, in place of sprinklers, read the letter. This is a liquid fire retardant, not a foam. But if it can replace a sprinkler system, wow. Being used commercially only for now, but they are in the process of getting it approved for covering foam. These approvals are state fire marshal only so that doesn't mean it is approved everywhere and I hesitate to promote it until I see more in writing. But the message is, products are in the works to spray over exposed foam and meet fire codes. When they arrive, it should help remove some of the concerns about applying foam.
Bud
As for seeing foam, I have read/talked about two different products that are being used to spray over foam and meet the fire marshal's requirements. Now, they could be the same product, just being offered by different companies, I haven't gotten to that point as yet. In my state, the FM has approved one for use in plenums, get this, in place of sprinklers, read the letter. This is a liquid fire retardant, not a foam. But if it can replace a sprinkler system, wow. Being used commercially only for now, but they are in the process of getting it approved for covering foam. These approvals are state fire marshal only so that doesn't mean it is approved everywhere and I hesitate to promote it until I see more in writing. But the message is, products are in the works to spray over exposed foam and meet fire codes. When they arrive, it should help remove some of the concerns about applying foam.
Bud