Lighting, Light Fixtures, Ceiling and Exhaust Fans - lamp inquiry

Luminaire has two stickers inside. One says use only 70W metal halide lamp. One says use only max 100 type M or type S coated ED-17 lamp. I tried a 70W high pressure sodium lamp and it wouldn't light. I tried a 50W metal halide lamp and it wouldn't light either. But when I try regular 100W incandescent bulbs they light. What might be the problem, why doesnt the expensive bulbs work in the luminaire?

Is this a new fixture? Does it have a ballast? I have never tried it but I would think a regular incandescent lamp in a fixture that has the output of a ballast would blow up the bulb.

Luminaire has two stickers inside. One says use only 70W metal halide lamp. One says use only max 100 type M or type S coated ED-17 lamp. I tried a 70W high pressure sodium lamp and it wouldn't light. I tried a 50W metal halide lamp and it wouldn't light either. But when I try regular 100W incandescent bulbs they light. What might be the problem, why doesnt the expensive bulbs work in the luminaire?


Sgull.,

You will have to check it more closer which it mean that you need to verify the ballast info to match the sticker I think someone did replace the ballast and it fail so they bypass it.

Oh by the way 50 W metal halide is a pulse start not probe start they never came with probe start at all.

one of my trick is get a simaur wattage mercury vapour bulb if that lit up then you know the ingitor is shot but use the indentscent bulb is kinda risky due some secondary connection on some hids are over 250 volts { open circuit voltage }

That something you need to check it out and if the ballast is shot don't bother order Mercury vapour verison it no longer manufactered per engery code
So go with Metal Halide or CFL if you plan to swap the luminaire to new one even I know they start come out with LED but the cost is the issue right now.

Merci.
Marc

Yes it has a ballast. Here's a picture of it: http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/sgull1/IMG_1251.jpg

It's the correct ballast, per sticker on luminaire. This isn't a new fixture, probably 10 years old at least. The ballast is magnetic type. I assume it's dead and needs replacing to get the metal halide bulb to work. Either that or maybe like Tony said it was bypassed. I was going to take the ballast out and look to see whether it was hooked up at all but can't get the clip clamp thing loose to get the ballast loose:madhell: Have only that small 12" x 12" square hole to try to stick my head up and see how the h to get it off. any further advice appreciated, thanks

Jezz the famous F can ballast { not a swear word btw but it called " Flourscent can " it mean it look simauir to larger flourscent ballast shape }

ok with the cover on the left side of photo you will have to grab from left to right it will pull out otherwise take a screwdriver and pry it open it will pop open due the clip hold in the place { I have done much more crazier than that what your photo show }

BTW the primary leads I know it have dual voltage ballast with the replacement it will have marked leads one will say common aka netural second lead will have one will say 120 volts or other is 277 volts otherwise colour format will show up the black is 120 volt hot while orange is 277 v hot { some case yellow will show up as well } white is common for either voltage

secondaray for lamp it will mark lamp and lamp common the ingitor will be inside the F can so if the ingitor fail just junk the whole thing and get new ballast unit.

it kinda not too bad take it apart but put it together that will be very tricky if not carefull { trust me it can be pain in rear end } one trick I done is use the zip ties the numbers of zips I will know which one is which like example one zip mean netual while two zip for line conductors for lamp side I make flag tape one flag for lamp netural while two flag mean lamp power connection.

I know it will take a while to do it first time but once you get mastered with it it will become little easier over the time.

Merci.
Marc

the ingitor will be inside the F can so if the ingitor fail just junk the whole thing and get new ballast unit.

Marc, I still cannot seem to pop up the clamp by prying with a screwdriver, I must not be doing something right. It does not pop up, just starts bending. When I squeeze my head into the square ceiling hole to look at the ballast I see that it is huge! If I can ever manage to get it off how can I be sure it is the problem? To replace that big ballast must be very very expensive.

I didn't see on the can what you are calling an ignitor, so don't know what you mean by that. When you say get a new ballast unit do you mean get a new ballast?

You call this luminaire an F can, but when I go to Halo or Cooper website or search anywhere I cannot reference it to get any info. (Luminaire is either Halo or Cooper brand, it says on it with stickers).

Why is it that incandescent bulb works but not metal halide, does that indicate bad ballast for sure??

Sgull.,

There are couple way someone can screw up the connections first thing what some peoples do is bypass the conneciton at the termail block to bypass the burnted out ballast or someone did not watch the connecton at all.

Let me list the common F-Can for 70 w MH

http://www.advance.philips.com/eCatalog/out/2852332651.pdf

This is PDF so it will take a second or two to download the spec chart and you will see the diagram conneciton for this one but keep in your mind the other manufacters may have diffrent colour conneciton so just watch out with that one.

Cost of the F can typically run about 100 bucks give or take few bucks depending where you get it and I know for sure big box store may not stock this so go to electrical supply centre that is the best place to find this.

there are few ways you can get the lid pop open but a tip is get a small mirror to see excatly what it done with it and you should able see the clip there. { some case it will have cover screw in as well }

Merci,Marc

If an incandescent bulb lights does that mean the ballast is either burned out or bypassed? If the ballast is shot on this fixture does that mean it'd be better just to get a whole new fixture, just as cost effective because the ballast is too expensive or hard to get or something?

I did manage to get the ballast off finally. It's a metal halide ballast Magnetek brand, big size thing, 11" long x 3" wide x 2 1/2" high. It was fairly warm to the touch while the power was on to it. It has a plug-in type wiring connection which made it easy to remove after getting it out of the clip thing.

With the 12X12 recessed luminaire you have there if you get new one it will outweight the cost of new ballast due yoiu have to modified the trim and support to hold the new luminaire.

Yeah that is the size of the Fcan ballast I know it can be pain in butt to get it removed if still warm then you know you got power but somewhere the inside of ballast is shot like ingitor or capaitor { some will have it } is shot or open secondary winding

But senice you mention indentscent still working so more likey ingitor failure so with Fcan ballast there is not much you can do but replace the ballast that do come all in one which it will have ingitor , capitor { if required } ballast core of course and just give you a head up with replacement some will have pre fourmed plug ready and most case it don't
So when you replace it make sure you double check the diagram to make sure you are on proper voltage and lamp connection I know you will have to look at the ballast label to make sure.

Merci,Marc

Looks like the common f-can ballast in link posted below for 70w MH would cost $134 dollars maybe a little less depending on where I shop. Seems like before paying that much I should try and consider some alternative first, unless there isn't much of one? Any advice along that line would be appreciated.

Here's some links to photos of under-eave lighting on the building. They take 100w mercury vapor lamps. I tried replacing with new lamps, to no avail. Apparently they will be needing replacement ballasts also.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/sgull1/IMG_1257.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/sgull1/IMG_1258.jpg

The info on the "ballast" is Advance Transformer Co. 71A2501. These luminariers have a date on them, 1975. I can't seem to reference any ballasts (if that's what they are) like this anywhere. Comments/advice needed about this too.

thanks

Looks like the common f-can ballast in link posted below for 70w MH would cost $134 dollars maybe a little less depending on where I shop. Seems like before paying that much I should try and consider some alternative first, unless there isn't much of one? Any advice along that line would be appreciated.

Here's some links to photos of under-eave lighting on the building. They take 100w mercury vapor lamps. I tried replacing with new lamps, to no avail. Apparently they will be needing replacement ballasts also.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/sgull1/IMG_1257.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb153/sgull1/IMG_1258.jpg

The info on the "ballast" is Advance Transformer Co. 71A2501. These luminariers have a date on them, 1975. I can't seem to reference any ballasts (if that's what they are) like this anywhere. Comments/advice needed about this too.

thanks

Sgull.,

That advance number you gave me I did do little digging in my old catalog book { good thing I save it } and it was oringally a MV { Mercury Vapour } ballast and it no longer made them they stop makeing them little over a year ago

So here my alternative MH verison # 71A5383* { that may changed so check with the electrical supply centre for latest info } that should be a driect replacement I know you allready told me the cost However I don't have much info with super CFL to work with this set up so I really can't comment so I don't want to give you a bum answer so just understand what I am saying on this matter

That luminaire I did see that is a common 12X12 sqaure luminiare and ya you can able find MH ballast or go with HPS { high pressure sodium } but ya never like the orange colour at all just like you see on most of the street luminaires are.


I will just recomend that you reballast and get new bulb the same time and with 70 w MH it will be brighter than old 100 w MV { plus better colour format } but I will dig little more with super CFL to see if that justifable as well.

Merci,Marc

Marc, let me get this straight what you suggest. If I obtain the ballast shown in this link http://www.goodmart.com/pdfs/advance/71A5380.pdf
that should be a direct replacement for the square block looking ballast (transformer) number 71A2501 as I mentioned and shown in the photo in the link image 1258 in my previous post here? It will fit in the space and bracket? I am confused about the two separate drawings of the square dimensions in my link here. The existing ballast in the luminaire as pictured looks more like a square block and am concerned that the replacement you mention would not fit in the bracket...
Also, if you are recommending if I do the ballast replacement you suggest that I would need to replace bulbs with 70w metal halide, I would need to find such with mogul base, as that is the bulb socket size in these old luminaires. Are those available?

Marc, let me get this straight what you suggest. If I obtain the ballast shown in this link http://www.goodmart.com/pdfs/advance/71A5380.pdf
that should be a direct replacement for the square block looking ballast (transformer) number 71A2501 as I mentioned and shown in the photo in the link image 1258 in my previous post here? It will fit in the space and bracket? I am confused about the two separate drawings of the square dimensions in my link here. The existing ballast in the luminaire as pictured looks more like a square block and am concerned that the replacement you mention would not fit in the bracket...
Also, if you are recommending if I do the ballast replacement you suggest that I would need to replace bulbs with 70w metal halide, I would need to find such with mogul base, as that is the bulb socket size in these old luminaires. Are those available?


Sgull.,
To answer your first question yes it is a driect replacement and they are both same size and that is a common open core demison { size } but the luminaire you have you should not really have any major issue with fitting but just follow the conductor pattern when you take old MV ballast off and the replacement ballast installed plus there are couple more items you will have to add into one is ingitor which old MV ballast do not have it and Both do have capaitor that really inprove the power factor { it will save little more electric useage }

Speaking of bulb yes the 70 watt MH bulb do come in Mogul size let me grab a link and post it up here

MH70/U/ED28 [S4230/16017] - $53.95 : Light Bulbs at Bulbman. (http://www.bulbman.com/index.php?main_page=product_bulb_info&cPath=4603_8876_8877&products_id=11532)

This is the closest I can able find it and I really suggest that you concat that company for more info and yes it will be in stock.
I know you can get them in meduim base verison as well but you can get a socket reducer adpator and get 70 watt MH it little more common on that size if you go with med base route make sure you get universal burning postion

Here the socket adpator

SOC/E39-E26 [22406] - $7.50 : Light Bulbs at Bulbman. (http://www.bulbman.com/index.php?main_page=product_bulb_info&cPath=8945_8947&products_id=12240)

Here the 70 W MH med base bulb

MH70/U/MED [S4856/78138] - $29.95 : Light Bulbs at Bulbman. (http://www.bulbman.com/index.php?main_page=product_bulb_info&cPath=4603_8876_8877&products_id=11533)


Those items are pretty easy to get so it is your call which way you want to go and make a note above those bulbs I mention those are enclosed verison if you work on other type of luminares let me know I will snag ya a open luminaire verison { this is very impoart for safety reason }


If you have more question just holler I will get to ya asap

Merci.
Marc

there are couple more items you will have to add into one is ingitor which old MV ballast do not have

1. What do you mean by MV ballast? What is MV?
2. I have to "add" an ignitor to the replacement ballast? How do I go about doing that? Sounds like getting complicated for me.

thanks marc

The MV stand Mercury Vapour that how we write in short hand the MH stand Metal Halide so that will clear up some confusing.

Really to swap over from MV to MH is not that hard just like replacing the burnout ballast the only diffrence is ingitor that is pretty straghtfoward task there is not much go wrong with the connecitons as long you follow the diagram carefully.

Most of my time I useally order in kit it will have everything I need at one shot and 90% of time with PSMH i double check to make sure they are included new ingitor in the kit not very often I have to order the ingitor seperate at all unless remote ballast setup.

Your case it should be not too hard to do that the otherwise the Fcan will take care everything as all in one but I belive you should have some room in the termation box to put in ingitor that is no bigger than capaitor what the exsting luminaire do have { I know some don't have it depending on which ballast format it have } but if the noise may have issue for you the Fcan is probly the best solution for ya.

Really to swap over diffrent ballast is not any harder than repalce the orignail unit.

Merci,Marc

Most of my time I useally order in kit it will have everything I need at one shot

From where (specific example please) might I see available or order such a kit?

Sgull :
I found couple items that is cheaper than Advance ballast but it your call what you want to do with it.

here the link

70W Metal Halide Ballast Kit Quad Tap M98 HX-HPF - ProLighting.com (http://www.prolighting.com/sousm70q-k.html)

that one items you can able use it without issue and you will noticed the price is far much cheaper than other will be.

I have couple other items I can post it later if you want to.

To readers :

I am not advisementing anything but try to help the OP to keep the cost down If you have question ask me direct.

Merci,Marc