Boilers - Steam and Hot Water Systems - Seeking heating system advice
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AndrewHwang
10-27-09, 10:25 AM
All,
I am new to this forum and may not ask the question correctly.
Currently, the water tank of our pre-1950 gas boiler (I think 17.5k BTU) that powered the steam heating system leaked. All contractors told me that repair is not an option and boiler replacement is a must.
Our house is a 2 family attached with a single heating system.
The choices presented to us are either:
1) straight boiler replacement using existing steam heating system (about $3500) -or-
2) convert to 2 water heating system (about $13000) with 2 Energystar compliant water boilers, and complete reconstruction of the heating system.
[Contracts said that the price difference of converting to a single water heat system vs seperate system is around $5k]
We plan to live in our current house for at most 20 more years. Using the following conditions:
a) $12K difference in upfront cost,
b) the disturbance of the 2 families (this house is currently being lived-in) and walls needs to be torn apart for laying new pipes
c) our rough estimate of needing at least 15 years to break even on the investment, using today's natural gas
Should I make the conversion for the environmental conservation sake? Or go with conventional wisdom of keeping the exisitng setup?
All advice are appreciated.
Andrew
I am new to this forum and may not ask the question correctly.
Currently, the water tank of our pre-1950 gas boiler (I think 17.5k BTU) that powered the steam heating system leaked. All contractors told me that repair is not an option and boiler replacement is a must.
Our house is a 2 family attached with a single heating system.
The choices presented to us are either:
1) straight boiler replacement using existing steam heating system (about $3500) -or-
2) convert to 2 water heating system (about $13000) with 2 Energystar compliant water boilers, and complete reconstruction of the heating system.
[Contracts said that the price difference of converting to a single water heat system vs seperate system is around $5k]
We plan to live in our current house for at most 20 more years. Using the following conditions:
a) $12K difference in upfront cost,
b) the disturbance of the 2 families (this house is currently being lived-in) and walls needs to be torn apart for laying new pipes
c) our rough estimate of needing at least 15 years to break even on the investment, using today's natural gas
Should I make the conversion for the environmental conservation sake? Or go with conventional wisdom of keeping the exisitng setup?
All advice are appreciated.
Andrew
TOHeating
10-27-09, 11:41 AM
Sounds to me like the smart choice is to keep it steam.
Does the 15K or so quoted fix the wall damage ?
Sounds like it's gonna add up fast.
Does the 15K or so quoted fix the wall damage ?
Sounds like it's gonna add up fast.
Perry525
10-27-09, 12:00 PM
The first thing to do is take a careful look at the leaking tank to check where the leak is and how big the hole.
Then look on the net to find if there are spares to be bought and at the same time, consider taking the boiler to someone who can weld it. People who say things cannot be repaired are often wrong.
Then look on the net to find if there are spares to be bought and at the same time, consider taking the boiler to someone who can weld it. People who say things cannot be repaired are often wrong.
AndrewHwang
10-27-09, 12:16 PM
TOHeating:
The $13K quoted (average quote) does not include fixing the wall/floor damages.
I realized the cost to repair may go up fast; and that is one of the reason I hestitate on doing a steam to water heating conversion.
Perry525:
Thanks for giving me the tips on boiler welders. I'll check them out and see if that is feasible.
By the way, if I am going to stick with gas fired steam boilers, are there anything out there that can achieve 85% AFEU? It seems that steam boilers, regardless of brands, cannot go higher than 80-82%. Is that ture?
The $13K quoted (average quote) does not include fixing the wall/floor damages.
I realized the cost to repair may go up fast; and that is one of the reason I hestitate on doing a steam to water heating conversion.
Perry525:
Thanks for giving me the tips on boiler welders. I'll check them out and see if that is feasible.
By the way, if I am going to stick with gas fired steam boilers, are there anything out there that can achieve 85% AFEU? It seems that steam boilers, regardless of brands, cannot go higher than 80-82%. Is that ture?
xiphias
10-27-09, 03:39 PM
A well-installed steam system (piping, control) can be very efficient. Brooklyn has some of the best steam guys in the country. Find a couple and see what they think.
rbeck
10-27-09, 04:28 PM
The big question is what is your existing fuel bill? In a conversion you can plan on saving about 18 - 25%. So at $1000 a year fuel bill you will save $250. $250 x 20 years = $3000. Hmmmmmmmmmmm!!! Save $3000 spend $13K plus. You will reduce the fuel bill that much by replacing the steam boiler with a properly sized steam boiler, good pipe insulation and great venting. Depending on the boiler size maybe two smaller boilers or low/high/low firing again depending on size.
Replace all the air vents and maybe use two on the ends of the mains instead of one.
For more steam info see the link below and search around for the steam menu.
Steam FAQ (http://www.comfort-calc.net/Steam_FAQ.html)
Replace all the air vents and maybe use two on the ends of the mains instead of one.
For more steam info see the link below and search around for the steam menu.
Steam FAQ (http://www.comfort-calc.net/Steam_FAQ.html)
AndrewHwang
10-28-09, 09:03 AM
Xiphias - Thanks for the tip on looking for a steam pro. I did not know that Brooklyn is one of the best place to locate a steam pro.
rbeck - Thanks for the link and info on money saving. Your logic is very sound. Spending big money now to achieve saving in the LONG run really doesn't justify it; especially in my currently fully occupied house.
In reality, the broken boiler was poorly maintained and it was running probably at a very low efficiency rate. Our gas bill for the previous 12 months was about $4k for heating and hot water. So with a new boiler installed, if the efficiency is increased, I can probably save a big chunk off the current bill already.
I have checked on other sites and found out that the high AFEU water boilers does not last as long as cast iron steam boilers, and they all require much higher maintenanace down the road.
Thanks all for your objective opinions and suggestions, much appreciated.
rbeck - Thanks for the link and info on money saving. Your logic is very sound. Spending big money now to achieve saving in the LONG run really doesn't justify it; especially in my currently fully occupied house.
In reality, the broken boiler was poorly maintained and it was running probably at a very low efficiency rate. Our gas bill for the previous 12 months was about $4k for heating and hot water. So with a new boiler installed, if the efficiency is increased, I can probably save a big chunk off the current bill already.
I have checked on other sites and found out that the high AFEU water boilers does not last as long as cast iron steam boilers, and they all require much higher maintenanace down the road.
Thanks all for your objective opinions and suggestions, much appreciated.
xiphias
10-28-09, 06:36 PM
Read up. Many of the good steam guys in NYC really enjoy working with people who understand their systems. There are two good books by Dan Holohan that are absolutely worth the modest cost:
We Got Steam Heat
and
The Lost Art of Steam Heating
They are great resources for understanding the hows and whys of steam systems, are written in layman's terms, describe well what kinds of things the homeowner can do to keep them performing well.
Google them up.
good luck.
We Got Steam Heat
and
The Lost Art of Steam Heating
They are great resources for understanding the hows and whys of steam systems, are written in layman's terms, describe well what kinds of things the homeowner can do to keep them performing well.
Google them up.
good luck.