Bricks, Masonry, Asphalt and Concrete - Who's Resonsible to Seal Block: Builder or Stone Mason?

I just had 2 additions put onto my ranch home which lower level is fully exposed in the rear. I had stone siding applied to the lower level block instead of plain parging.

Sadly, when it rains, water is soaking into the stone and into the block and I'm getting wet/moist block on the inside of the walls which I want to start finishing off with drywall. The moisture is soaking thru ABOVE grade, I don't see anything soaking in below grade.

#1) Who should have sealed the block, the builder of stone mason?

#2) Now that the stone is up and finished, what can I do at this point to remedy the soaking? Seal the stone? Seal the interior of the block and put up a vapor barrier? Drylock it too?

I am emailing both the builder and stone guy, so I want to know who dropped the ball here. Shouldn't the builder have coated the exterior of the block with an asphalt application of some kind? I asked him when we was building and he said that he sprayed a clear preoduct to seal it, but it almost seemed like he was making that up when I asked about sealing the block. I can't be sure if he did or not. If he did, it IS NOT stopping any moisture.

Thanks folks!! -Tony17112

Usually the general contractor is responsible for all the work including everything he subs out. Who paid the mason?

Generally everything below grade is stucco'd and then sealed with foundation grade tar. I would think anything above grade would be unsealed so the stone work can adhere but I'm not a mason so I can't say for sure. Is there any missing mortar?

There are several wall details available to accomplish what was needed for that application, unfortunately it sounds like none were used, as is most often the case. Penetrating sealer over the stone is now your best bet.

Optimally, it is CMU, liquid membrane sealer, scratch coat, bedding coat, stone, penetrating sealer.

Second best is CMU, cementious sealer, scratch coat, bedding coat, stone, penetrating sealer.

What you most likely have is CMU, bedding coat, stone.

Marksr: I hired the General Contactor and also highered the stone mason seperately. There are no cracks in the motor ...it looks great on the outside.

Tscarborough: I am betting no sealant of any kind was used (I KNOW no tar/asphalt was used below grade, because I saw it before they backfilled. I think they actually DID put a scratch coat over the block.

The builder emailed me back already and is offering to seal the interior block. But my question is if he already (supposedly) sealed the outside of the block and moisture is coming right through, why would he think the same sealer would do anything on the inside?

So, my remaining questions are:

#1.) Since I highered both contractors seperately, who SHOULD have sealed the block itslelf to stop the moisture?

#2.) Assuming I get the outside stone sealed, should I also get the interior block sealed and then put a vapor barrier up before putting up my furring strips and drywall?

I ask who's ultimately responsible because I paid each guys seperately and I don't know who to hold accountable. I had another addition put in next to it at the same time but that has already benn drywalled ..who knows what's going on behind it!!

Here;s a photo of the block framing. The bottom of the block on the interior is about at grade. So the penetration of moisture actually starts about 12" above grade, then works its way down.

http://www.tonytonini.com/water1.jpg

tony -

You hired a "builder", who is probably a carpenter-type (not a G.C. and/or not having the responsibility and authority to add work or materials that were omitted from the plans) and apparently did not specify what was to be done and how. Was he just supervising the mason contractor or just coordinating the work sequence? What does the agreement say?

You hired the mason contractor and apparently did specify to him what was to be done and how. What does the agreement say?

In effect, you are the G.C. since you hired separate contractors and have the responsibility to determine who should do what have should have been done in the end. Were you looking over the progress as it went on?

Who is responsible for exterior drainage and grading?

Did the inspector come out to protect you and the future owners?

Dick

In your situation, you are the responsible person to make sure that all aspects of the construction are done correctly. You, as the General Contractor (as evidenced by you hiring trades independently, no matter what you call them), are liable for assuring that the work is performed to the owner's (that would be you) specifications. The owner is liable and responsible for making sure that the GC (that would be you) follows the plans and specifications that the owner provides.

This conundrum is why it seldom pays for someone outside the industry to act as their own GC. General Contracting may seem like easy money, but they assume both the liability and have the general and specific construction knowledge.

Sorry for the book, but half of my answers on this board deal with this issue (non-construction educated owner trying to perform General Contractor duties to save a buck).

I don't think they ever do save that buck, but they do assume a lot of risk.

In your situation, you are the responsible person to make sure that all aspects of the construction are done correctly. You, as the General Contractor (as evidenced by you hiring trades independently, no matter what you call them), are liable for assuring that the work is performed to the owner's (that would be you) specifications. The owner is liable and responsible for making sure that the GC (that would be you) follows the plans and specifications that the owner provides.

This conundrum is why it seldom pays for someone outside the industry to act as their own GC. General Contracting may seem like easy money, but they assume both the liability and have the general and specific construction knowledge.

Sorry for the book, but half of my answers on this board deal with this issue (non-construction educated owner trying to perform General Contractor duties to save a buck).

I don't think they ever do save that buck, but they do assume a lot of risk.

I agree, sorry to say you were acting as the general contractor it is now your responsibility.
Now without seeing the exterior this is only a guess, but the moisture issue seems odd to me. That appears to be a lot of water. Just a shot in the dark suggestion, but follow this problem up to were the stone meets the siding. Is there proper flashing detail at the transition?

The stone actually runs up to the top of what you see in the photo. It meets siding over your head there and there is a good ledge of vinyl just over wheere the mortor begins.

I did hire the GC to do the job but the p rice was too high. I then cut the price in half by me doing all the electrical, heating, plumbing, carpeting, tiling, painting, molding, and a few other tings. He (normally a GC) was hired to do everything else. He did have subcontractors come in and do most of the work (footers, block, roofing, grading, gutters).

Yes, the builder and I involved the authorities with every step of the way with many many inspections.

I will check my contract and see if any sealing of the block is mentioned. I would think it would be code to require some sealing due to the potential health risks with mold and moisture.

ALso, yes, I may ultimately be responsible I guess, but I do have experience enough to know what needed to be done. I DID make sure the block was sealed by asking the builder if he water proofed it ...and he replied that he sprayed the block with clear sealer.

Does anyone think sealing the inside with a vapor barrier would be a good idea at this point? The other addition is already drywalled in and will start to mold up if it's soaking thru there too.

I just looked at the photo again and something occurred to me. The moisture starts out right along that bottom horizontal mortor line, then it expands up and down. I bet that's right where the tar paper ends from the stone going over the framing. When you look on the outside, since there's stone all the wy up over your head, it seems like a very odd thing for there to be a perfectly straight line of moisture that starts to appear and a specific spot. Tar paper ending would explain it and it would hang down over where the framing ends just about where the line of moisture begins.

I should probably not worry about getting results form either party; I'm willing to fix this on my own. But I need some good ideas on the fix.

I may be able to convince the stone guy to seal the outside and the builder already has volunteered to seal the inside (albeit with the same failed sealant he used on the outside).

Any other thoughts on any of these topics are appreciated!! You guys are great for responding ...thank you! -Tony17112

Tony

When you look at a wall from the inside, you are only seeing where the water shows up and not where the leak really is. Water can leak behind your primary water proofing barrier and run down and run horizontally to an easy point to show up inside. Similarly, there can be a leak in a different wall and the water can run horizontally to a different wall and show up there.

That is why drain tile is frequently specified in basements and especially walk-outs because it can usually be easily drained to "daylight" without a sump or sump pump. Sealers are are "band aid" that will deteriorate even if applied properly. One other important thing thing is what is behind the stone (I assume is is just a manufactured stone)?

Good luck!!

Dick

"the builder already has volunteered to seal the inside (albeit with the same failed sealant he used on the outside)"

A clear sealer like he claims to have used on the outside wouldn't do much for the interior. Inside you would need to use a coating like drylok.... but I wouldn't seal the block on the inside until I was convinced the leak was fixed outside.

I don't think sealing the inside is a solution. I have a hunch the problem is a flaw in a flashing detail or water resistant barrier details. I know I mentioned it before, and not to beat a dead horse, but I think it a flashing issue. Of course I can't see it and I'm basing this assumption strictly on the amount of moisture that has appeared on the inside.
The tar paper or whatever barrier was used is intended to be a last line of defense not the main checkpoint. I just keep thinking it has to be........... oh no need to repeat myself again....lol

I don't think water making its way down 7 feet from the top of the flashing (behind the stone) would result in a perfectly straight horizontal line in the block. In the photos, you do not see the perfect horizontal line; it is at the most advance stage where that line expanded up and down.

I can conduct a test. The block is now dry. I can point my hose and point a stream of water right on the stone just above that horizontal line. If I see moisture, then it's safe to say it is simply soaking thru the stone into the block and not from the top of the flashing (7 feet above) since no water is touching it.

I"ll give an update. -Tony17112

HEre;s a photo: the red line is where the perfectly horizontal line of moisture appears before it starts expanding up and down. Remember the framing stops just above that line on the inside and the block begins. My theroy is that the tar paper behind the stone in the framing overlaps the block making that horizontal line.

http://www.tonytonini.com/stone10.jpg

That could be very possible.

Any moisture that gets into the structure from the usual areas (roof slope change, vinyl siding, corners, poor window installation and especially flashing problems where the stone protrudes beyond the vinyl) will naturally run down down the primary moisture barrier rather than go horizontally. Once the moisture meets a barrier, it will either accumulate or run horizontally if there is no exit to the exterior. - It is trapped.

I don't know if the exterior picture on the last post is the same wall as the interior picture posted earlier. It appears most of the stone was an adhered veneer over wood frame expect for a little of the concrete block. The downward slop leads me to believe the y are different walls since no one would backfill behind a wood frame wall and the down slope will increase the water at the lower level. - The downspout extension is way too short for the grade.

Was there a professional plan submitted with the permit application? If so, the inspection approval may have be rather loose unless the plan was just very general and there was nothing to really enforce beyond some local minimal code standards.

Dick

Hi Everyone, I just completed my first test and I have definitive results.

The moisture could have been coming from:
1.) Rain simply soaking thru the stone and into the block due to poor/no sealing of block;
2.) Rain getting behind the windows due to poor installation;
3.) Rain getting behind the stone where the siding and stone meet or flashing (ArmchairDIY's favorite).

The first test to run would be to simply point a sprinkler on the stone as low as possible. This would mean that the window AND the flashing, where the stone meets the siding, wouldn't be in the picture at all.

I did this and BAM, moisture comes soaking through the block at that low level.

So the answer is #1: the rain is simply soaking through the stone, through the mortor scratch coat, and into the block. The block must not have been sealed with a sealer or foundation grade tar/asphalt.

As I metioned before, I asked my builder/contractor if he sealed it and he said "yes ...with the clear stuff." Obviously it's not working or he lied, or he only sealed it up to grade level.

To answer a previous question; Yes, codes enforcement came out for many, many inspections.

So now I know that rain simply soaks through to the block. Is there any good way to fix this at this point? MY choices seem to be:

1.) My mason suggested to "pop" off the stone, apply a sealer, then re-apply the stone ...OUCH.
2.) Seal the stone on the exterior. But I can't trust sealers to not discolor over time after spending $10,000 on stone alone!! Or is there stuff that's PROVEN to not dicolor/crack, etc.?
3.) Seal the interior block with Drylock and put a vapor barrior over that and then the furring stips to hold the drywall? This is the easiest, but the block will still get moist during rains. Hopefully, moisture wouldn't make it through the Drylock and ceratainly not through the vapor barrior. Would it get moldy in the block over time and then eventually get to the exterior stone?

ANY advice or comments are needed. Thanks a million!! -Tony

P.S. Below are photos showing the sprinkler and then the moisture coming into the inside.

http://www.tonytonini.com/stone-test1.jpg

http://www.tonytonini.com/stone-test4.jpg

Since you hired the contractors and do not have any specific specifications or requirements to determine the responsibility in writing, you are the one responsible, no matter where the leak(s) begin or show up.

There is guarantee that an applied veneer is water proof (although it may be better than vinyl siding) unless the proper materials.

Judging from the photos, your wood framing extends below the finished grade, which is against code and common sense. Since the exterior grade is higher to right of the window. If you end up in court, you could get buried by any engineer testifying.

Also, your downspout extension is far too short and can lead to perpetual saturation of the soil and block below grade unless you have a very good drain tile system surrounded by granular fill and a sump. The exterior grade also concentrates the moisture at the walk-out end and there is no where to go unless you have very permeable soil.

Since the block could easily be saturated at all times, any moisture will show up on the interior immediately. That is one of the fallacies in the quickie "water hose" test frequently used by contractors selling "water proofing systems". - Been through the problems and experiences for 30+ years.

You will not find an applied "sealer" that is guaranteed to make a surface water waterproof, especially if the water could be coming from below due to exterior grading.

Dick

Thanks for the reply!!

I did higher two contractors, but shouldn't the one who's doing the building include proper water repelling of block as it is industry standard to seal block?

Also, the wood framing is no where near grade; it starts about 24" above grade. Look at the interior photo and how high the window is off the floor, then look at the exterior photo at the SAME window.

As far as the grade, it is pretty steep (referencing the downspout extension). Look at the last exterior photo I posted. To the left of the house, you'll see a fence. The horizontal pole of the cain-link fence is parallel to the ground ...as you can see it is very steep. I will consider a longer extension, but my water test proved water is soaking through the stone and into the block. Ground moisture can't crawl up block and form a perfectly straight and level line while leaving 12" below it perfectly dry ...in less than one hour of spraying ...can it?

-Tony

Sorry I did not see this earlier!
Do you know who the manufacturer of the stone is? Also is the mason a certified installer? If the answers are yes then I would contact the manufacturer for assistance. I'm sorry that you are going through this on your home, Armchair DIY, and Concretemasonry have it right. You assumed responsibility for all of the subcontractors that you hired directly. There is no reason for the "General contractor" to assume responsibility for work done by another contractor under a separate contract.
Good luck,
Vince

Yes, the manufacturer is Quality Stone Veneer.

I guess I am past the point of figuring out who's responsible (I contend that the builder is responsible because I hired him to do a job that includes waterproofing block which is industry standard).

I got a committment from the stone mason to re-apply the stone if it is taken off. I just got an email from the builder that he will remove the stone and seal the block but only if I excavate (which I know nothing about). I'm betting he didn't apply sealer at all since excavating wouldn't be necessary since the water is soaking through ABOVE grade.

HEre's a photo of my completion of dryloc-ing the block and putting a vapor barrier over it ...this will allow me to put up drywall and hopefully keep it dry.

http://www.tonytonini.com/dryloc-vapor.jpg

Tony,
Dry bloc seals the water/moisture inside of the wall. You need to expose the outside (excavate), and have a good waterproof membrane installed. Typically cultured stone is not installed below grade. Most installation instructions list 4 to 6 inches above grade as standard. I have never worked with Quality, Goggle them and look for installation instructions. I would bet that you could find a small site contractor, with a small backhoe who is looking for work, and get a pretty good deal on excavating and replacing the back fill. I would venture a guess that you will not be happy with what you find. Kind of makes one wonder what was done below grade around the rest of the project!
Good Luck!