Humidifiers and Dehumidifiers - Honeywell True Steam / Trane Questions

I just put in new two new Trane furnaces and XL16i compressors. I want to add a humidifier to each system.

1) Can the HM512 be bought without a thermostat? I already had a pair of the Visionpro IAQ thermostats installed and don't need another pair.

2) I have Trane 4TTXCD coils. They looked a little tight on the iinside when installed. Is there enought room where the A coil peaks to mount it on the side of the A coil box? The plenum above is tight, both in terms of height to work with and depth because the cold air return plenum is pretty close by. If I can't mount it to the coil box, I may need a remote hose kit.

3) I've been reading some threads and people mentioned a dehumidify option on their Vision IAQ behind the more tab. Mine does not have this and I'm wondering why. (I have indoor humidity (nothing to set), outdoor temp and electronic air cleaner "days to clean".

Thanks,

Jay

1) Can the HM512 be bought without a thermostat? I already had a pair of the Visionpro IAQ thermostats installed and don't need another pair.
On the 12 gallon model, they only come with either the IAQ t-stat, or the TrueIAQ. The 9 or 6 gallon model comes with those two and the basic humidistat. Is 12 gallons needed?

2) I have Trane 4TTXCD coils. They looked a little tight on the iinside when installed. Is there enought room where the A coil peaks to mount it on the side of the A coil box? The plenum above is tight, both in terms of height to work with and depth because the cold air return plenum is pretty close by. If I can't mount it to the coil box, I may need a remote hose kit.
YOu could mount it on the coil box, but I would not advise it. Unless you are watching very close where you drill screws, and cut holes in on the side.

3) I've been reading some threads and people mentioned a dehumidify option on their Vision IAQ behind the more tab. Mine does not have this and I'm wondering why. (I have indoor humidity (nothing to set), outdoor temp and electronic air cleaner "days to clean".
Do you have BK wired up to DHUM on the EIM? For it to display the settings need to be set up on the installer set up menu.

On the 12 gallon model, they only come with either the IAQ t-stat, or the TrueIAQ. The 9 or 6 gallon model comes with those two and the basic humidistat. Is 12 gallons needed?


I ended up buying them with the cheaper the True IAQ and if I can find someone to donate them to I'll just give them away. I've got (i) a 4,000 sf medium tight home with probably 1,000 s/f of two-story ceilings, and (ii) a wife with sinus issues who likes to complain. The humidifiers are cheaper than a divorce. Twin Carrier fan-powered pad units hooked to the hot water supply never ever got my house higher than about 27% in the winter. I wanted the 12 gallon units if for no other reason to shorten the length of time the system will run. Truth be told, I wanted twin Autoflo S2000s, but couldn't find the room to mount them.


YOu could mount it on the coil box, but I would not advise it. Unless you are watching very close where you drill screws, and cut holes in on the side.


Thanks for the advice. I went and ordered two 10' hose kits. That'll be the best solution in terms of getting the steam into the duct and future maintenance of the units. I'll just insert the nozzle into the plenum over the coil as far as I can.


Do you have BK wired up to DHUM on the EIM? For it to display the settings need to be set up on the installer set up menu.

I will check. My installer wanted to use some artsy-looking Carrier t-stat but I wanted the Honeywell so it would work properly with the humidifier. I don't think he knew much about hooking up the Honeywell or programming it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. You give some great advice here and its much appreciated on my part.

Twin Carrier fan-powered pad units hooked to the hot water supply never ever got my house higher than about 27% in the winter.
Do you have an air exchanger/heat recovery system in your home, or fresh air tied into the return?


I don't think he knew much about hooking up the Honeywell or programming it.
Let me know what wires are hooked up between the EIM, and the furnace, and A/C.

Also what are the settings set up to on the installer setup on the t-stat, and dipswitch settings on the furnace. Give me the full model # on the furnace, and A/C outside.

Do you have an air exchanger/heat recovery system in your home, or fresh air tied into the return?


Two fresh air Skuttles. Required by Code because our houses (14 years old) were supposedly built so "tight" that they needed an o/s air source. I've since come to the conclusion that the builder wasn't "tight" anywhere but his wallet - and perhaps one particular orifice.



Let me know what wires are hooked up between the EIM, and the furnace, and A/C.

Also what are the settings set up to on the installer setup on the t-stat, and dipswitch settings on the furnace. Give me the full model # on the furnace, and A/C outside.

I will have to post a pic of the EIM. I'm in the process of installing the humidifiers but will take sme pics.

How do I get the installer setup info on the t-stat? Both are YTH9421C1010 models.

Furnace 1: TUH2D120A9V5VS
Compressor 1: 4TTX6048C1 (Trane XL16i)
Coil 1: 4TCXD061BC3

Furnace 2: TUH2B080A9V3VA
Compressor 2: 4TTX6036C1 (Same)
Coil 2: 4TXCB036BC3

Thanks. I really appreciate all your help.

Here is the EIM wiring for System 2: http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a224/qjso983Om/wiring.jpg

EIM
Upper Left
1 1 - Tstat Red
2 2 - Tstat white
3 3 - Tstat Blue
4 C - Furn Brn (Terminal B/C)
5 R - Furn Red (Terminal R)
6 RO - Null
7 RH - RNull

Lower Left - All Null

Upper Right
1 W - Furn (Terminal W1)
2 W2 - Furn (Terminal B)
3 W3 - Null
4 Y - Furn (Terminal YLU)
5 Y2 - Furn (Terminal B)
6 G - Furn (Terminal G)

Lower Right
All Null, except Out 1 = Green and Out 2 = White

Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense; some of the wiring lops around and the lighting ain't the greatest.

Two fresh air Skuttles.
Are these just dampers? And if so, are they tied to the furnace return or just dumping into the room?


How do I get the installer setup info on the t-stat? Both are YTH9421C1010 models.
Install manual (http://www.ntsupply.com/files/products/VPIAQSINSTALL.pdf), page 3.

Furnace 1: TUH2D120A9V5VS
Compressor 1: 4TTX6048C1 (Trane XL16i)

Furnace 2: TUH2B080A9V3VA
Compressor 2: 4TTX6036C1 (Same)
Wow, how big is your house??

200,000 BTU of heat, and 7tons of cooling, that's a lot!


5 R - Furn Red (Terminal R)
6 RO - Null
7 RH - RNull
Is there jumpers between all of the R's? (small factory jumper)


2 W2 - Furn (Terminal B)
5 Y2 - Furn (Terminal B)
B?

W2 should go to W2 on furnace.
Y2 should go to BK


4 Y - Furn (Terminal YLU)
Y should go to Y2 on furnace.


Tell me if there's any jumper on the furnace? example, jumper between R and O

Are these just dampers? And if so, are they tied to the furnace return or just dumping into the room?

They tie into the cold air returns in the basement. One I can reach, the other is drywalled over.

Wow, how big is your house??
200,000 BTU of heat, and 7tons of cooling, that's a lot!

It's about 4,500 square feet including a finished basement, but it is an HVAC nightmare -- two-story foyer, two-story living room, two-story family room (with 5 floor to ceiling windows, each about 6 feet wide and 18 feet tall), vaulted ceilings in master bedroom, bath and one of the kids' bedrooms. I suspect its still oversized, but I've never timed the cycles.


Is there jumpers between all of the R's? (small factory jumper)

Yes - a small brass one. Didn't notice it before.

B?

W2 should go to W2 on furnace.

You're right - it does.

Y2 should go to BK

Nope. My BK terminal is empty - see photo below. My Y2 goes to Y on the furnace (it's the blue wire) and is is mated there with a blue wire from the A/C compressor.

Y should go to Y2 on furnace.

I don't have a Y2. I have BK, W2, W1, R, G, R, G, B/C, Y, YLO and O. Here's a picture. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a224/qjso983Om/furn_wire_080.jpg


Tell me if there's any jumper on the furnace? example, jumper between R and O

If there are, I don't see them. Nothing on the Mobo in the furnace appears to be jumped. (I'm looking at the 080 right now; I haven't even started on the 120.

They tie into the cold air returns in the basement. One I can reach, the other is drywalled over.
do you know what model they are? Is there a damper motor on it or more a blance system?



I suspect its still oversized, but I've never timed the cycles.

When the temps gets down to -5˚, and the furnace is cycling on and off in 1st stage, then it's oversized.




Nope. My BK terminal is empty - see photo below. My Y2 goes to Y on the furnace

Ok, this is how it should be wired up.

EIM-----Furnace-----A/C
R----------R
Y2--------BK----------Y2
Y1---------Y-----------Y1
C----------B/C---------C
W1--------W1
W2--------W2

Then there should be only a jumper between R and O.

Here's a picture.
What is the double wire doing on W1, R, G, B/C? I'm guessing you have CleanEffect?

do you know what model they are? Is there a damper motor on it or more a blance system?

Balance system with little weights. No motors.

When the temps gets down to -5˚, and the furnace is cycling on and off in 1st stage, then it's oversized.

LOL - I'm not sure I'll be able to tell 1st vs. 2nd.


Ok, this is how it should be wired up.

EIM-----Furnace-----A/C
R----------R
Y2--------BK----------Y2
Y1---------Y-----------Y1
C----------B/C---------C
W1--------W1
W2--------W2

Then there should be only a jumper between R and O.

So I need to jump a wire between R and O on the Furnace?

Where does the humidifier come in? My manual says

HUM------EIM--------Furnace
GT--------G
Hum-------Hum
Hum-------Hum
R------------------------R
GF ----------------------G

I assume I just take the R and GF leads from the True Steam and tie them in to the existing wiring on the R and G terminals on the furnace? Likewise, take the GT from the Humidifier and tie it to the existing wire on the G terminal of the EIM?

What is the double wire doing on W1, R, G, B/C? I'm guessing you have CleanEffect?

Yes. Sorry. I should have mentioned that. Both furnaces have a CleanEffect on them.

Balance system with little weights. No motors.
Do you know if they close, or are the open all the time?



LOL - I'm not sure I'll be able to tell 1st vs. 2nd.
I'm sure you can. On mine, (60k) first stage, I hardly hear it running, but when it ramps up to 2nd stage, I can tell.



So I need to jump a wire between R and O on the Furnace?

Yep.


Where does the humidifier come in?
I would wire it up as show on page 16. Hum---Hum only.

Do you know if they close, or are the open all the time?

LOL. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I had it balanced so that a slight draw would open the damper. When they installed the new furnace, they installed it wrong (rotated it 90 degrees counter-clockwise) so that the damper weight can't do it's job.


I would wire it up as show on page 16. Hum---Hum only.

Ok. So the fan will run for 15 minutes or so while the humidifier heats up? Seems like a waste, but I will admit that using the blower-delay feature sure seems to complicate the wiring a lot.

It's hooked up now - the way you recommended - and I set 372 to "3', 374 to "1" and 379 to "1" (for the summer months). It's been about 15 minutes and the steam hose (remote kit) is getting hot, so I suspect everything is working fine. I may have the installer come back to fix the skuttle and have him rewire the humidifier for the pre-heat delay.

Umm one more thing - I haven't jumpered O and R yet. What does that do?

I had it balanced so that a slight draw would open the damper.
I would make open on more draw than less.. More air you bring in in the winter, it's going to dry out the house fast.


So the fan will run for 15 minutes or so while the humidifier heats up? Seems like a waste, but I will admit that using the blower-delay feature sure seems to complicate the wiring a lot.
I'm not aware of the 15 minute delay.. Where are you seeing this?

379 to "1" (for the summer months).
You understands what happens here?

On the set up subject, go by #240 and 250. I'd suggest 240 -2 and 250-3

Umm one more thing - I haven't jumpered O and R yet. What does that do?
That allows the blower to run the correct speed in A/C mode with your two stage A/C.

I'm not aware of the 15 minute delay.. Where are you seeing this?

The manual I've got give two setups; one turns the blower on immediately and waits for the water to reach 170 degrees. The other waits for the humidifier to reach 170 degrees and then calls for the blower. (As I read it anyway).


You understands what happens here?


As I understand it, the system overcools by up to 3 degrees to remove the excess humidity. Bad idea?

On the set up subject, go by #240 and 250. I'd suggest 240 -2 and 250-3

My important-looking settings are:

220 - E (3)
230 - E (3)
240 - E (5)
250 - E (5)
260 - n/a
300 - 1
310 - 5
340 - 0
342 - 1
365 - 0
370 - 1
372 - 3
374 - 1
379 - 1
383 - 3
384 - n/a
400 - 0
401 through 406 - n/a


That allows the blower to run the correct speed in A/C mode with your two stage A/C.

Hmmm. So it wasn't set up correctly to begin with?

The manual I've got give two setups; one turns the blower on immediately and waits for the water to reach 170 degrees. The other waits for the humidifier to reach 170 degrees and then calls for the blower. (As I read it anyway).
What page are you seeing this on? I read what I downloaded from the web, and didn't see anything about this??


As I understand it, the system overcools by up to 3 degrees to remove the excess humidity. Bad idea?
No, just wanted to make sure you understand.



My important-looking settings are:

Anything that got an "E" value shown, change it to a number.

220 - 3
230 - 3
240 - 2
250 - 3



Hmmm. So it wasn't set up correctly to begin with?
Your not the only one, there been many who has come on here and not been set up correct.. Lot of installer don't take the time to read the manual to set up the thermostat or furnace correctly.

Look at your furnace dipswitches. Change if it they don't match.



80k furnace.

1-on
2-off
3-off
4-off
5-on
6-on
7-on
8-off

120K furnace.

1-off
2-off
3-off
4-off
5-on
6-on
7-on
8-off


On this furnace, since it's a large furnace and 5 tons of cooling how is the return hooked up on this? One side, both side, side and bottom, or just bottom?

Oh, one more thing I forgot to add. You need to cut the jumper wire W14 on the board if the dealer has not done that.

here is the manual for the A/C (http://www.butcherdistributors.com/Images/Interior/4ttx6.pdf). on Page 5 "Furnace" hook up.

What page are you seeing this on? I read what I downloaded from the web, and didn't see anything about this??

Page 12 - Top vs. Bottom.

https://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/related_links/wireless/truesteam/install/69_2285efs.pdf

I'll check all those settings you gave me and see how far off I am.


On this furnace, since it's a large furnace and 5 tons of cooling how is the return hooked up on this? One side, both side, side and bottom, or just bottom?

One side. The return comes down, makes a 90 degree turn into the Clean Effects, through the Clean Effects into the side of the furnace and then upflow.

I'm afraid to ask why.

Sigh. Needless to say the W14 jumpers weren't cut. These guys are a reputable outfit around here and it doesn't look like they did a very good job.

Page 12 - Top vs. Bottom.

Ok, that's a new print. The print I been looking at don't even show that at all. Do you run your fan all the time?


I'm afraid to ask why.
With your system, it's going to move a lot of air... With just one side, it's not going to move the air it needs for your A/C, and it may shorten the life of your furnace's heat exchanger.

I am not able to find the install manual for your model, but they are the same as the XV90.

Install manual (http://www.butcherdistributors.com/Images/Interior/tuy_rv.pdf). Go to page 9, table 3, read note-

Sigh. Needless to say the W14 jumpers weren't cut. These guys are a reputable outfit around here and it doesn't look like they did a very good job.
As I said earlier, way too many installer "rush" the job and don't take time to read the manual.

The company I used to work for, The installer could not start the system, I came out after the install was done, and I would check the work, wire up the thermostat, set them up, fire up the furnace, check the gas preassure, take a temp reading for temp rise, and adj the blower as needed. check all vents in the home to make sure we got good air flow, then talk to the home owner about the equipment, what needs to be done, and how the furnace behaves.. ect.. I would spend an hour some times on start up.

Jay,

Sorry. A death in the family means I am just now getting back to this. Well, I traced all the wiring and here is what it looks like:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a224/qjso983Om/TRANEWIRING.jpg

I see three main diferences from your suggested wiring below:
1) I have a further connection from Furnace R to A/C R.
2) My Y2 from the EIM and Y2 from the A/C connect to Y on my furnace; not BK.
3) My Y from the EIM and Y from the A/C (I assume that is the same at Y1) connects to YLO on the furnace, not Y.

For what it's wroth, my furnace install guide (P40) seems to say:

EIM ---------Furnace ---------- A/C
Y1------------Y1/YLO -----------Y
Y2------------Y/Y2--------------Y2

What the heck is it wirh furnace wiring conventions anyway?!? There are 26 letters in the alphabet. Why have Y, Y1, Y2 and YLO????

Oh, and depending upon how the stuff above shakes out, I still have to jumper O and R on the Furnace.

Thanks

Jay,

Sorry. A death in the family means I am just now getting back to this.
Sorry to hear about the lost of a family member. Hope every is going allright for you and your family now.



Well, I traced all the wiring and here is what it looks like:
It needs to be redone as I stated earlier.


I see three main diferences from your suggested wiring below:
1) I have a further connection from Furnace R to A/C R.
The R's hook up are correct in the drawing you posted.



For what it's wroth, my furnace install guide (P40) seems to say:

EIM ---------Furnace ---------- A/C
Y1------------Y1/YLO -----------Y
Y2------------Y/Y2--------------Y2
That is if a 50% A/C system is used.. Your XL16i is 80% .

If you look at the manual for the XL16i, it shows.
EIM------Furnace----A/C
Y2--------BK----------Y2
Y1---------Y-----------Y1

What the heck is it wirh furnace wiring conventions anyway?!? There are 26 letters in the alphabet. Why have Y, Y1, Y2 and YLO????
Y is cooling, # are stages.


Oh, and depending upon how the stuff above shakes out, I still have to jumper O and R on the Furnace.
The jumper stays.

It needs to be redone as I stated earlier.

If you look at the manual for the XL16i, it shows.
EIM------Furnace----A/C
Y2--------BK----------Y2
Y1---------Y-----------Y1

The jumper stays.

Thanks.


Can I ask a dumb question? Seeing as how the wiring is all wrong and I don't yet have a jumper between R and O, how the heck is it that the system works?

I guess I am used to electronics where, if you don't wire it correcty, it doesn't work. Can you explain to me why furnaces and A/C systems can work when they're wired all wrong?

Just curious. It seems very strange to me how many different ways there are to wire these things and I'd like to understand better.

Can I ask a dumb question? Seeing as how the wiring is all wrong and I don't yet have a jumper between R and O, how the heck is it that the system works?
You are now just in heating mode, so the O has nothing to do with that part of the system.

When the board gets power on O, it letting the board know that it's needs to run the blower a little bit slower for 1st stage cooling.

Here is the install manual (http://www.butcherdistributors.com/Images/Interior/4ttx6.pdf) if you don't have one. The wire hook up is on page 5.

Can you explain to me why furnaces and A/C systems can work when they're wired all wrong?
In a way it's wired up right, but not for your system.

Y1 the blower run 50% speed, Y2, blower runs 100% speed. So when your system is in 1st stage, the blower is running too slow, and may freeze the coil, or flood the compressor.

Where BK is wired up on 2nd stage, it sets the blower at 80% speed.

If it was wired wrong say. Y was wired to W, heat would come on instead of cooling.

Here is the install manual (http://www.butcherdistributors.com/Images/Interior/4ttx6.pdf) if you don't have one. The wire hook up is on page 5.


Thanks!! I checked the install manual that came with my unit (18-BC55D1-6) and that manual agrees to your PDF. The problem was I had been going off of the furnace install manual (18-CD26D1-7, Page 40), thinking they would all be consistent. Doh.


You've been a huge help. I am actually starting to understand some of this. LOL

Debating whether to tell my installer all of this. I suspect he'd get defensive rather than learn from it.

Debating whether to tell my installer all of this. I suspect he'd get defensive rather than learn from it.

I would.. There may be a good chance he would be defensive about it, but hope he learns! I wonder how many other installs he has out there that are screwed up by not reading the books.

I know my in-laws brand new Carrier is crippled with a single stage t-stat.. ughh.. makes me mad.

I know my in-laws brand new Carrier is crippled with a single stage t-stat.. ughh.. makes me mad.

LOL. I'm not gonna ask why they didn't consult with you first.


--------

Can you give me some information on the Tstat settings in the 220-250 range that you recommended below?

What do these settings mean and does the fact that my system is likely overpowered (but still want humidity even if cycles are short) have anything to do with the recommended settings?

One of them (I can't remember which) defaulted to as high as 11 when I went to change it from "E".

LOL. I'm not gonna ask why they didn't consult with you first.
Well, they did 2 years ago. They got a quote from a Trane dealer, and they had me look over everything, and all looked good. They said they wil wait a couple of years before they do it.

Then last Sept, they said they got a new furnace, and I was thinking they went ahead with what they talked to me about. We went up there (White Bear Lake) for a family gathering, and I made a bee line down to the basement to check it out. My mouth dropped to the floor that they got a Carrier.. Poped the covers off, and saw it was a 3 stage Infinifty furance, thinking okay, Top of the line Carrier. I go up stairs, and see a very basic Honewell 3000 series Non-programable t-stat. I am thinking OMG, they got this high end furnace, and crippled it with a single stage t-stat! Guess the dealer told them it was a waste of money on the Infintity t-stat, and won't save on anything. So I just odred a Infinity t-stat last week, it's my early Christmas gift for them when we go up for Thanksgiving! now the system will work like it should! LOL

Can you give me some information on the Tstat settings in the 220-250 range that you recommended below?

220-1
230-2
240-2
250-3