Flooring Tile - Please Need Advice ASAP regarding Tile Contractor

I hired a tile contractor to retile my bathroom. The old tile was layed on a mud bed with mesh. The mud bed and mesh had a depth of 1/2"-5/8". The contractor removed the tile and the mud bed and mesh which brought him down to the plywood subfloor. He then spread thinset on the plywood and installed 1/4 hardibacker. From there he was planning to spead thinset on the hardibacker and then lay the tiles. The problem with this is that the tiles would have been 5/16"-3/8" lower than the old tiles, therefore changing the height where the tiles meet the shower pan, jacuzzi, threshold etc. When I questioned him about this, he said that he could bring the tiles up to their previous height, by just using a deeper trowel and applying more thinset. He also installed the hardibacker with thinset and nails instead of using screws. Does this contractor know what he's doing or should I cut my loses now and hire someone else. I'm concerned. He's due back tommorrow Saturday, so any advice tonight would be appreciated. Thank you mross

A thicker trowel is his answer, but not mine. The 3/4" subflooring is not enough to support the flexion of the tile flooring. He should have added another layer of 1/2" plywood, then the thinset and cbu, using prescribed screws. This would bring you just slightly above your original floor, if you only had 3/8" to begin with, but that is much better than having it all too low and cracking due to flexing.

Chandler, thanks for your reply. I agree that a thicker subfloor would be better, but "ANY" change in the height from the old tiles creates problems where the tiles butt up to the shower base, Jacuzzi, thresholds etc. Isn't it imparitive when doing a remodel/re-tile job to maintain the height of the tiles you're replacing, or do contractor's routinely not pay attention to that detail? It seems like a rather important detail. Also, is it acceptable to adjust for any height deficiancies by just using thicker thinset? It seems to me (and I'm no expert) that from the outset, the job should be planned and measured carefully to come as close as possible to the old tile height and therefore not creating problems where the tile butts up to existing fixed objects. I believe this can easily be done by either adding an additional layer of plywould to the subfloor or carefully choosing a backer board of the correct thickness. Does this make sense or am i missing something. I'm just trying to get a handle on what to expect. thanks mross

I may not be getting an entire picture of the tile "meeting" your shower and jacuzzi. Horizontal and vertical tiles are laid separately and don't have anything to do with each other. One may over lap the other creating a small grout line, as opposed to having them not meet and have a larger grout line.
You are reiterating what I said about laying the plywood and cbu. A thicker thinset IMO is not the solution, especially if you are talking an additional 3/8". If that is the case he will be making nearly a 3/4" notched thinset, which is too much.
I would not increase the size of cbu, as it is not structural.
What is the total distance from the original subflooring to the point you want the tile to end? It needs to be in 16th inches.

chandler; what is a typical or preferred thickness for the thinset?

and what is used between a mud bed and the tile, if anything or is it wet set?

I don't see how the numbers are adding up to what you guys are getting so I must be missing something. Can you educate a dumb old electrician?

The 3/4" subflooring is not enough to support the flexion of the tile flooring.

If this is ceramic, and the joists are in order, 3/4" ply is plenty, and it's above industry standard.

He also installed the hardibacker with thinset and nails instead of using screws.

Hardie says you can.

3/4" subfloor over standard framing is plenty thick enough for ceramic and porcelain, of course more is always better.

Thinset with roofing nails to set any CBU is fine.:thumbup:

The tile guy can not adjust the thickness of the floor by using more thinset more than 1/16 or so. He probably had no way to know the thickness of the old floor when he bid the job. However after ripping the floor he should have adjusted his plans, charge you more and go.

Is the threshold a marble thresh or something else?

Expecting the new installation to be the exact height as an old unknown installation is not a realistic expectation.

Jaz

Mark and Jaz, I wasn't assuming a 3/4" subflooring like y'all were, sorry. I have seen some subflooring in the old mesh, concrete, type installation a paltry 1/2", so without clarification, adding the 1/2" plywood would have served two purposes....raising the floor to a more realistic height and adding support to a probably wider than normal joisting, considering the age of the type of construction as it probably dated into the '70s, just a guess. Hardie says you can use roofing nails, and you can probably get away with it, but it makes so much more sense to use the cbu screws for an unquestioned installation. I would just hate for a smooth shanked nail to start working its way in the hole, not that it would break the tile, but just not a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Nap, normally a 1/4" notch is used to set the tile. Trying to use a higher bed of thinset, IMO would cause a weaker installation and the tiles would be a bear to keep level.

Yeah, adding more thinset under the tiles in not a solution. Adding plywood to the existing ply subfloor or using the 1/2" hardi might be better, but both require the removal of the hardi they already instaled.

Chandler, I also agree to a extent about using screws for hardie, but time is money. If a contractor can use a quality nail in a pneumatic nailer, it will save a tremendous amount of time.

In the end, I think your contractor has an idea of what should happen, but like already mentioned, might have underbid when he found out the old tile was set on what sounds like a Jersey mud job. He now has to make up for the time spent and cut corners. If you don't feel comfortable with him or his work, find a new contractor and cut your losses.

Just wondering guys.....could you just add another layer of 1/4" backer?

Depending on what the overall measurements call for. If 1/4" will bring it up to par, don't see why not. I would not match seams, but overlay them.

Thanks to all for your input. The bottom line question is what is the best way to make the height of the new tiles the same as the old tiles.
To review, the contractor removed the old tiles and 5/8" of mud and mesh down to the plywood subfloor. Then installed 1/4" hardibacker over the plywood subfloor. If the tiles are layed now (on the 1/4 hardibacker), they will be aproximately 3/8" lower than the old tiles. The question is, what is the best way to raise this up to the height of the old tiles. Here's a list of the options that I've heard thus far. Let me know which is the best way to move forward or if there is a better option. thanks mross

add another layer of 1/4" backerboard

remove the 1/4 hardibacker that already down and install 1/2" backerboard. (I've heard that 1/2" hardibacker is for walls and not for floors)

spread 3/8"-1/2" of thinset and lay the tiles

I forgot to mention something. If I have to remove the hardibacker that is already down (with nails & thinset), how difficult will it be to remove it. And does the thinset have to be removed as well? If so, what is the best way to remove it?

thanks again mross

It would not be fun trying to remove the backerboard and thinset that is in place now. It would be very time consuming. You could add another layer of 1/4" backerboard I suppose. You might even want to price out Schluter Ditra (Home Depot should have it). Ditra is 1/8" thick, and coupled with the thisnet for the tile and tile itself, should bring up to your existing tile.

Isn't it imparitive when doing a remodel/re-tile job to maintain the height of the tiles you're replacing, or do contractor's routinely not pay attention to that detail? It seems like a rather important detail.

Not always the case. Each floor is different, and some can wind up a little higher or a little lower. If you make the contractor aware of what you want, he may be able to get to where you want to be, by using different underlayments and thicknesses. Did you tell the contractor ahead of time what you wanted?

I forgot to mention something. If I have to remove the hardibacker that is already down (with nails & thinset), how difficult will it be to remove it. And does the thinset have to be removed as well? If so, what is the best way to remove it?

Depends on how long its been down and what thinset mortar was used. It may come up relatively easy, or it might be a big pia.

I'd not add another layer of hardi. Consider using ditra or ditra XL, whichever one will get you the closest in height.

Adding more thinset under the tile to make up for 3/8" is not doable. Thinset is generally for 1/4" thick or less applications, and the tile will sink into the thinset as it cures, if its any thicker than that.

As you have already figured out, this type of discussion and planning has to be discussed with the contractor before he starts.:)

chandler; what is a typical or preferred thickness for the thinset?

Typically, you could use up to a 1/2" notch trowel which would amount to approx 1/4" in thinset thickness when you bed the tile. Any thicker application would require a medium bed mortar.

and what is used between a mud bed and the tile, if anything or is it wet set?

The mud bed he described, is not really a mud bed at all. It's a scratch coat of thinset over the lathe with tile on top. Its not an acceptable method for setting tile. A real mud bed would be approx 1 1/4" thick and would be a mix of portland cement and sand (mostly sand). Its a real dry dense mix, and doesnt shrink when it cures. Thinset (or a medium bed mortar if needed) would be used over this type of mud bed to set the tile.

I don't see how the numbers are adding up to what you guys are getting so I must be missing something. Can you educate a dumb old electrician?

Hope this helps. Hey tilesetters don't know much about eletric either ya know.:D

Typically, you could use up to a 1/2" notch trowel which would amount to approx 1/4" in thinset thickness when you bed the tile. Any thicker application would require a medium bed mortar.



The mud bed he described, is not really a mud bed at all. It's a scratch coat of thinset over the lathe with tile on top. Its not an acceptable method for setting tile. A real mud bed would be approx 1 1/4" thick and would be a mix of portland cement and sand (mostly sand). Its a real dry dense mix, and doesnt shrink when it cures. Thinset (or a medium bed mortar if needed) would be used over this type of mud bed to set the tile.



Hope this helps. Hey tilesetters don't know much about eletric either ya know.:D

thanks johhny. Chander answered some of my questions (thanks to chandler as well). I didn't want to hihjack the thread too badly so I did not restate the questions. I was just having difficulty coming up with the numbers that everybody else was and those answers in themselves are a wealth of info.

thanks.

Thank everyone for the advice and sorry for the redundancy in asking. I've got it straight and should be good from here. sincerely mross