Boilers - Home Heating Steam and Hot Water Systems - Boiler Install Problems

New to the forum (or any forum for that sake) and not sure if I'm in the right place, so please direct me if not.

I recently had a new hot water boiler installed, and I believe the installation is incorrect. HUGE water hammer at boiler on call for heat.

Unable to send pic's at this time, but I'll try to explain none-the-less.

When they (plumbing contractor) took the old boiler out, it was positioned opposite of their install position by 180 degrees. The return is installed at the top of the boiler (which originally was the supply, with the supply at the bottom which was originally the return). When hammer started, I called them and they flipped pump for opposite direction of flow [away from expansion tank - which I believe ("pump away") is correct]. However, it is also pumping away from the automatic air vent, which I think is wrong? I'm leary of calling them back, since the numerous calls to them, and their subsequent service calls have done nothing. I'm not proficient at thermodynamics, but I can read and interpret an installation manual, and to me they should have installed the supply at the top end of the boiler - not the bottom.

Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. The weather in Chicago is getting colder.

Thanks,
Paul

Hi Paul, you paid to have the boiler properly installed, according to best practices, and manufacturers recommendations. If the company that you hired to do so did not meet their obligations, then you must take whatever steps necessary to satisfy yourself. If you are happy to walk away from them and find some other way to rectify your problem, you are free to do so. I personally would be on them like stripes on a skunk. You may end up in small claims court...

When you get a chance, take pictures of the system. Create a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket (http://www.photobucket.com) and upload the pics there. drop a link for us to view them.

You understand that the advice you get here isn't going to be able to be used in a court case... but at least you can have an idea of what needs to be done.

What model boiler?

Thanks for the reply. I'll be back in Chicago tomorrow and will take pictures and post.

I understand that nothing here is discoverable in litigation, and I do fully intend on having the original contractor honor their warranty on labor and installation. First priority is getting the problem rectified - no matter who performs the work.

Thanks again,
Paul

Here are the pictures of the boiler (peerless MI-06) as requested.

If they don't show, I'll redo. Not quite sure how to use Photobucket.

Pictures by PinnacleGC - Photobucket (http://s853.photobucket.com/albums/ab97/PinnacleGC/)

I can't quite read the pressure gauge - but it looks to be very low. Can you tell us the pressure? It should be about 12 psi (cold).

Mike,

Just got back into Chicago. Neighbor turned boiler on due to low temps in area. I shut it down when I got home because the water hammer was driving the dogs crazy. I took the pic's after shut-down, so that is most likely the low pressure issue you see. It does normally run around 12-15 psi.

Paul

No, that's wrong... when the boiler is COLD the pressure should be 12-15 PSI ... when it's hot, it should be perhaps as high as 20 PSI (probably somewhat less though).

I see a number of things in the pics that I don't like...

Correct - 12-15psi COLD. Around 20-25psi operating.

Please expound on issues with pic's.

Thanks

Things I don't like, some may just be 'nit-picky' personal preferences... but bear with me:

1. Pressure relief valve. I prefer to see them installed vertically.

2. Expansion tank, water feed line. I don't like to see an expansion tank hanging on it's side like that without any support. I prefer them hanging vertically.

What's with that water line? Did he make that up with scraps of pipe he had in the truck and couplers? What happens if the boiler needs service that requires removing the jacket?

3. I think you mentioned an 'air removal' device? Where is it? I don't see one in the pics.

==============

You said that they came out and turned the pump around, and you STILL have hammering?

The pump is pumping INTO the bottom of the boiler, correct?

You said it normally runs 12-15 cold, but looking at that gauge, from what we can see, it only looks to be a couple/few PSI in there... can you clarify please?

3. I think you mentioned an 'air removal' device? Where is it? I don't see one in the pics.


If you look at the supply/expansion/water feed pic, it looks like it is behind the blue shut off valve. Black in color. In the return piping pic it would be barely visible behyind the yellow handle ball valve.

All the previously mentioned issues need to be resolved. But, in the meantime, I'm wondering what might be the direct cause of water hammer in a closed system - which seems a bit unusual.

Anytime there is noise in the system, I wonder about air. Has the system been totally and completely bled after the last time it was drained or opened?

Another thought is pump cavitation. That will cause noise and eventual damage to the pump. Cavitation can occur when the system pressure, at the pump's suction, is low - which is one of the potential concerns already mentioned.

Aye Droop, you got a better eye than I !

But that's just a vent... I don't see any 'air scoop', so it is possible that at least part of the hammering is indeed an air problem.

Also, I don't see any 'purge stations'... so there's really no way to purge the zones if necessary.

By the way, if you look at the IO&M manual for the boiler, you will see that Peerless prefers the relief valve vertically also...

Aye Droop, you got a better eye than I !

But that's just a vent... I don't see any 'air scoop', so it is possible that at least part of the hammering is indeed an air problem.



I saw it when I was trying to find that pipe that was cobbled together that you mentioned.

I don't know much about the difference in the air vents/scoops. I know my old boiler only had that vent on the boiler and my mother's only has one like that as well. After reading some of the latest threads, that may be part of the reason why she is having noise issues with her boiler. I'll have to get over there one day and poke around a bit more with my newly acquired bit of knowledge. :P

Aye Droop, you got a better eye than I !

But that's just a vent... I don't see any 'air scoop', so it is possible that at least part of the hammering is indeed an air problem.



I saw it when I was trying to find that pipe that was cobbled together that you mentioned.

I don't know much about the difference in the air vents/scoops. I know my old boiler only had that vent on the boiler and my mother's only has one like that as well. After reading some of the latest threads, that may be part of the reason why she is having noise issues with her boiler. I'll have to get over there one day and poke around a bit more with my newly acquired bit of knowledge. :P

That system should be piped as it is designed to be piped. swapping the pump does no justice to your system. I believe that back-flow preventer is designed to installed horizontally. It is now installed vertically. I also do not see an auto vent on the boiler itself or a low water cut out or a secondary limit control. These are all code requirements around here. The system should be 12 lbs cold pressure which will increase with heating. Pressure on the gauge appears to be low. And whats up with that black iron water feed? If I were you I would contact the mechanical inspector for your area. I'll just about bet a permit was not pulled.

The pump when originally installed DID pump into the bottom of the boiler. Then they reversed it to "pump away" from the expansion tank.

Here are the issues I see, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe it all has to do with their 180 degree turn of the boiler from the original boilers placement (and thus the supply being the return, and the return being the supply), in addition to thier flipping of the pump.

The way it is piped now, the air vent is at the return side of the system (which was the supply). Since flipping the pump, the water is now pulled through the boiler rater than pushed through it. The air bleed, which requires a certain amount of pressure to open the shrader valve to remove air is no longer there. Although they flipped the pump to pump away from the expansion tank, in doing so they took the bleeder out of the system.

Here is my theory on the fix. Remove the "I found the junk in the trunk" black pipe connecting the expansion tank to the air bleed/over-flow. Re-pipe the return into the return. Re-pipe the supply to the supply. Connct the expansion tank below the circ pump inlet, and flip the pump.

The top of the boiler is once again the supply, the return is once again the return, the expansion tank is closer to the pump and the PONPC, and the air bleed is now at the pressure side of the pump.

Your thoughts?

Thanks.

That is one poor install. Bummer. Unfortunately, I would not be particularly eager to entrust correction of the problems to the knucklehead who installed it.

Get to the I&O manual. Figures 3.1 and 3.5 on pages 7 and 9 are what need to be followed. Here's what I'd do, not necessarily in order:

1) leave the zone valves on the return.
2) pipe a differential bypass valve on the supply (see that little dP in figure 3.5?) that goes back to the return.
3) repipe the supply water and backflow assembly so it's serviceable, horizontal, and pipe the backflow preventer relief to 6" of the floor like it's supposed to be. Make sure the expansion tank is connected relative to the other components like they show, hang it vertically and make sure the piping is well supported.
4) pipe the pressure relief valve in the vertical position like it says on the tag of the unit, and pipe to within 6" of the floor.
5) move the circulator so it is on the supply, just downstream of the point where the expansion tank is connected, per figure 3.5.
6) install a real air elimination device like a Spirovent, Taco 4900, Honeywell, B&G or whatever.

'ang on a sec mate...

The pump when originally installed DID pump into the bottom of the boiler. Then they reversed it to "pump away" from the expansion tank.

Forget for a second which part of the SYSTEM is the supply and the return, and think about which port on the BOILER is the supply and the return... forget about 'pumping away' for a second or two... and all that other stuff... just for a minute.

If I'm reading your quote correctly, the pump was originally correctly installed IN RELATION TO THE FLOW THROUGH THE BOILER. If they came and flipped that pump around, and it is now pumping OUT the bottom, and the system is returning cool water INTO the top, that is the FIRST thing that needs to be changed. You can NOT reverse the flow through the boiler under ANY circumstances.

When I referred to the 'system", I was referring to it as a whole - boiler and piping.

If the spec's call for the supply to be at the top of the boiler - it's the supply. If the spec's call for the return to be at the bottom of the boiler -it's the return. Seems like a no brainer - but maybe not for the knuckleheads that installed it.

So..... I decided to re-pipe it myself. I know the overflow isn't complete. I didn't have a
3/4" 90 for the overflow, so I'll do it tomorrow.

Since re-pipe - no water hammer.

Thanks to eveyrone for the help - great forum!

Pictures by PinnacleGC - Photobucket (http://s853.photobucket.com/albums/ab97/PinnacleGC/)

Please remove the ty-wraps holding the wires and cables against the piping. All wiring should be at least one inch from the piping. If you must run the wiring against the piping then insulate the piping before ty-wrapping the wiring.

Please also remove the excess pipe joint compound from the threaded connections. Nothing screams "hack job" louder than pipe joint compound slopped all over.

Although it isn't a big deal the intermixing of galvanized and black steel piping should be avoided.

Thanks furd - I'll make those changes.

Actually - nothing screams "hack-job" more than a contractor that you paid good money to fu a simple installation.

When I called the contractor back because of the SEVERE water hammer, the hack they sent out had the nerve to ask me if I new (sarcastically) anything about boiler operation, and stated I must have a leak in the sysyem. Weird - I didn't have one (and still don't) BEFORE they replaced the boiler.

I even had the President of the company out who made the (wrong) call to flip the circ pump.

I may not have the best looking job (yet), but my solder joints are clean, the expansion tank is vertical, and most importantly, the system operates as designed.

Thanks for your, NJ Troopers, xiphias and everyone elses input - much appreciated.

Not that I have much faith in the Better Business Bureau but I think that you should file a complaint against that contractor. Maybe even court action.