Basements, Attics and Crawl Spaces - The Wet Corner

For reference, our basement is shaped basically like this:

http://www.happymac.us/diy/basement-diagram.jpg

The red wall is the east side and is where the problem lies. The area defined by the colored walls is the area I'm trying to convert into an office. With that in mind...

When my wife and I moved into this house about two years ago, one of the things the home inspector found was a large amount of efflorescence and moisture on the east wall (again, the red wall) of our basement. It originally looked like this:

http://www.happymac.us/diy/efflorescence1.jpg

The previous homeowners had a waterproofing company come in, clean the wall, cover the lower half of the wall with sealant (Drylok), and fill the gap between the basement slab and the wall with some kind of expansion joint. This satisfied our bank enough for us to get the mortgage but unfortunately it didn't actually solve the problem.

This past spring I cleaned all the walls, applied two coats of Drylok and one coat of latex on the three walls (blue and red in my diagram above). When I applied the Drylok to the southeast corner, the corner was still damp. I called Drylok and they told me to direct heat onto the corner until it was dry, then apply the Drylok normally. I set a forced air heater on it for three days before applying the Drylok and paint. It seemed to work well enough until a few days later when we had a torrential storm. The southeast corner started leaking enough to wash out the Drylok and paint.

It should be noted that, on the other side of the wall (outside), there is a concrete patio with good drainage all around. What soil there is in that area is never really wet; that is, there's no standing water or apparent drainage problems in that area. The only thing I can think of is, there's a PVC drain that runs under the concrete patio and there's an elbow right at that corner. I'm thinking, if the elbow is cracked or broken, the water could be coming in through there. Unfortunately the only way to check it is to rip up the concrete patio, something I have neither the desire nor the money to handle.

Today I took a wire brush to the concrete wall and was dismayed to find that the corner is soaking wet to the touch, and the concrete was loose enough to come off with the brush. It's not deep - maybe 1/8" at its deepest point - but enough to make me worry.

So here's my questions.

1. How can I dry this area enough to seal it up? Is there some kind of "quick-dry sealant" that I can use? Someone suggested that I use Drylok Fast Plug to cover up the damaged corner, then apply Drylok and paint over that.

2. Is the expansion joint-type thing that the waterproofing company installed between the floor and the wall necessary? The joint only runs around the colored wall area in my diagram; the rest of the basement has an open gap and no water or moisture issues.

3. How feasible is my theory about the elbow connection in the drain under the concrete? If it's feasible, is there any way to verify it and address it without breaking up the concrete?

http://www.happymac.us/diy/basement-1.jpg

http://www.happymac.us/diy/basement-2.jpg

http://www.happymac.us/diy/basement-3.jpg

http://www.happymac.us/diy/basement-4.jpg

IMHO, the problem you have is definitely due to something not draining properly outside. What is the PVC drain under the slab for, what does it drain??? If you are where there are cold winters, it is more than possible that freezing has broken the drain sometimes in the past. Another common cause is poorly working gutters/downspout, and poor grading around the foundation. Is the slab well caulked where it meets the house wall???

Thanks for the reply. It's far easier to show you than it is to explain it. Here is the concrete patio that's outside the house on the other side of that wall, as previously described:

http://www.happymac.us/diy/slab-1.jpg

The wall that the patio door is up against is the red wall in my diagram. You can see a rain gutter going down into the concrete patio, and the radon remover that was seen in my original pictures.

The gutter drains from the roof, as seen here:

http://www.happymac.us/diy/slab-2.jpg

It goes into the slab here:

http://www.happymac.us/diy/slab-3.jpg

And exits on the opposite side of the slab here:

http://www.happymac.us/diy/slab-4.jpg

I don't think it's a coincidence that my moisture problem just happens to be directly above the rain gutter. I would just like to know if there's anything I can do about it without (a) breaking up the concrete patio or (b) disconnecting the gutter.

I went over to the hardware store and picked up a small flexible drain attachment. I disconnected the gutter at the drain, capped the end that goes under the patio (with a lemon juice bottle, which oddly enough fits absolutely perfectly), and ran the drain off to the side.

http://www.happymac.us/diy/capped-drain.jpg

Later today I'll get a longer piece of drain from my neighbor and run the water to the other side of the patio.

If the theory of a damaged drain is accurate, then this should prevent additional water from collecting down there, yes? So the next question is, is there anything I can do to get rid of all the water that's already down there now?

That would have been my next suggestion, divert that downspout, but I might add even more extension to what you did. The water that is down there now will slowly dissipate, it that is indeed the problem. It may take a while to prove that out.

Just to add, most plumbing outfits and many inspectors now have inspection cameras they can run down there to confirm any problems. Beats the heck out of ripping up the concrete just to see IF it is broken. It might also pinpoint the problem area allowing for a smaller repair.

Bud

That would have been my next suggestion, divert that downspout, but I might add even more extension to what you did.

I already did. There's now a corrugated plastic hose running from that downspout to the other side of the concrete patio, dumping basically where the under-concrete drain lets out. It's unwieldy but since summer is over I don't need the patio any more. I put a couple sandbags over the hose to keep it in place.

Just to add, most plumbing outfits and many inspectors now have inspection cameras they can run down there to confirm any problems. Beats the heck out of ripping up the concrete just to see IF it is broken. It might also pinpoint the problem area allowing for a smaller repair.

For sake of argument, let's say that there's a crack or hole in the hose under the concrete. How would that be fixed without breaking up the concrete? In a best case situation the hole would be, say, right at the elbow where the hose turns towards the edge of the patio. You could drop some liquid epoxy down into the hole, wait for it to cure, and that's that. But in a worst case scenario the hole would be in the middle of the concrete patio. How would you go about fixing that?

Two thoughts come to mind. One is they make sleeves to line pipes, but I have no idea as to price or where to get the product for residential use. The other would be to cut an access hole through the patio directly above the broken area, repair the break, and then patch the hole. A diamond blade would cut through like butter, they are amazing and very neat.

One other point I saw in the pictures, is the slight upturn in the drain line as it exits the patio. If it does not drain completely, that could be the cause of the break, ie freezing in winter.

Also, check to be sure that black pipe is not perforated. I can't tell from the picture, but some have a series of holes to allow water to enter or exit from the soil.

One other thought, not saying it is a good one, but would be to create a surface/open drain by cutting a channel in the top of the concrete and covering it with a metal or plastic grate. At least in the winter when everything freezes, it would revert to surface drainage. Unfortunately, not all problems have a good solution :(.

Bud

Also, since the NJ soils I have dealt with usually drain well, a sump could be installed below the basement floor to catch any moisture that gets into the ground before it can soak through the walls. I have seen block walls fill up with water and force its way through. These links may not apply directly but might give you some thoughts.
Wet Wall Proposal (http://www.buildingfoundation.umn.edu/WetWallProposal/WetWallProp.htm)
RR-0509c: Renovating Existing Basements — (http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0509c-renovating-existing-basements/view?searchterm=basement)

So here's an idea.

The distance from the opening of the drain hose (the one that's now capped with the lemon juice bottle) to the opening on the side of the patio is about 12 feet. The drain hose has a diameter of about 5". As I was working on this I noticed that the downspout easily fits inside the drain hose opening.

What if I went to Lowes, picked up a 12' length of gutter, and simply slid it inside the drain hose? It would take a little effort but I should be able to attach the flexible drain attachment that I bought to the end of it, then pull that up through the bend and attach it to the existing metal gutter. So the existing plastic drain hose basically becomes a sleeve for the new metal gutter inside of it.

Think that would work?

It might solve the water problem for now, but if the existing pipe broke due to freezing, the same will happen to the new one. For now, I would say your idea will work, it is just I don't think you can trust it to keep the wall dry.

Can the gutters be repositioned to direct the water elsewhere with a new down feed?

Bud

I thought about that (the freezing problem) but I don't know how much of a problem it would actually be. If I put the seam of the gutter facing up, then if the gutter were to freeze and split then it'll most likely do it on the seam in which case the gutter would still act as a drain and not leak anything (or at least, not anything significant).

I don't think repositioning the gutter would be possible since the whole area around there is all concrete.

Speaking of keeping the wall dry: On Friday morning I mixed up some Fast Plug and liberally applied it to the corner that I showed in my original post. It set within minutes (!!!), and when I tested it on Saturday evening it was hardly damp at all. This morning I applied a coat of Drylok over it, and this afternoon a second coat. There is absolutely no moisture coming out of that corner now. The acid test will be, of course, when the next storm comes through but that won't be for at least a week. But so far, it looks like the corner is going to remain dry.