Flooring Tile - Another newby with shower ?'s and to much info

Wow, lots of info out there on the net and in here on this site, i only wish I had found you guys along time ago, as it is we are nearing the end of the live in remodel i have to tackel these showers

The very day we had the carpet installed in the upstairs, my daughter was taking a shower and asked me her new carpet was wet. I freaked and started looking into it, blaming her for getting to much water outside of the shower. Well to make a long story short we pulled the carpet back and found the leak coming from under the wall, called a plumber friend and he he said yup thats your shower pan leaking. About a year has passed and that shower has not been used at all.

This shower is upstairs with another shower that backs up to it, the base area is 36" x 39", there was nothing installed but some sort of shower pan, 2-3" of morter and tile over sheetrock. Needless to say i found some mold on the sheetrock behind the tile and I can see the back of the other shower and can see where the paper has that "ive been wet" look.

I currently have the shower area tore down to sub floor and studs, i did leave the sheetrock at the 7' level since that will be the top of my tile. I have on order 2 of the 48 x 48 kerdi "kits", I have purchased 8 sheets of hardi backer board to do the walls and 1 $6.00 bag of plain ole morter to seal the cracks in the hardi board. I also have the correct fasteners and tape for the board.

1st question:
since i am using the kerdi system do I need to put anything behind the hardi board before I screw it to the walls?
2nd question:
can a niche be fabricated out of hardi board, 2x's, poly e calk, morter, and kerdi? plywood? seems crazy to pay 50+ for a water tight plastic box
3rd question:
I plan on using 12" if not larger tiles in the shower(s), will this be a mistake trying to hang them on kerdi? novice here, i layed 600+ sq feet on the downstairs but nothing up a wall yet
4th question:
am i forgetting anything?

thanks guys im new here and have been reading so much i am telling the guys in h/d about stuff they done even realize they have, dreaming about it at night and the wife told me not to talk about it anymore even compared to my mechanic days, ugg

since i am using the kerdi system do I need to put anything behind the hardi board before I screw it to the walls?

You don't even need the hardi if using Kerdi. You can apply the Kerdi directly over drywall per their instructions. If you still use hardi, you don't need any poly behind the hardi.

can a niche be fabricated out of hardi board, 2x's, poly e calk, morter, and kerdi? plywood? seems crazy to pay 50+ for a water tight plastic box Yes, you sure can. Most niches are made of 2x4 and hardi and waterproofing. You will want to use some Kerdi band along the seams to make sure no water get in there (seams).

I plan on using 12" if not larger tiles in the shower(s), will this be a mistake trying to hang them on kerdi? novice here, i layed 600+ sq feet on the downstairs but nothing up a wall yet

No problems. 12" won't work for the shower floor there. Best to use 4" or smaller tile for that.

am i forgetting anything? Get some beer! J/K. If you want a really really good Kerdi install instructions, pay $10 and get this (http://www.tileyourworld.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66&osCsid=53c55098b52703af6c646511b4593216). It's the best manual on the market.

I agree with all of the above, and also would reconsider using the Hardie. Go ahead if you insist, but you'll need to sponge it just before you apply the thin set mortar for the Kerdi. You see Hardie SUCKS, moisture I mean. If you trust the Kerdi, you should use regular wallboard, or you can use the paperless kind.

Thin set mortar. Return that bag of dirt you bought ($6.00) and buy a decent unmodified thin set. If you shop at the orange place go some where else cuz they don't have a good quality unmodified mortar. See if anyone near you sells Ditraset or 317 Laticrete or another quality mortar. Tell us what brands are available to you.

Try Emser Tile, 5024 South Mingo Tulsa. (918) 663-8453-4. They claim to carry Ditraset which is made by Hydroment under license from Schluter. They are a distributor so they shouldn't sell direct to you, but can tell you who to go through to get it.

Jaz

Thanks for your help guys!!!
just curious, why wont the 12" tile work on the floor? I have no problem going smaller just seemed like it would be easier with the larger tiles.

If i understand the niche building steps ?
1. frame in niche with lumber, untreated 2Xs with a plywood back.
2. cut piece of hardi to cover back but do not screw it to the plywood, sandwich the side pieces of hardi to secure the back.
3. tape and mortor joints
4. cover with 1 coat of "red seal"
5. apply kerdi to seams and back of niche, is it really necessary to use kerdi corners in the niche or can i just cut and fold the kerdi strips?
6. kerdi the rest of the shower overlaping the kerdi over the edges of the niche kerdi

On a side note, I was talking to a coworker and he was telling me how easy showers are to do but his second one will not stop leaking, I hate to argue with him but he is just bound and determined that the tile and morter are what seal up the shower, not the underlayment. He was telling me how he poked holes in the membrane with toothpics to hold the membrane in place while he was working on it. :eek:
thats gotta suck!!!

12" tiles will not slope correctly to the drain, that is why you usually never see them installed in smaller residential situations.

Your friend is not correct. Tile and grout are NOT waterproof. The only way to waterproof your shower is with the Schluter system or other liquid applied membrane.

Water will absorb through the tile and grout (even when grout is sealed) and make it's way onto either the rubber pan liner or kerdi and drain into the weep holes of the drain itself. Poking holes in the liner is a serious no no. Your coworker should stick to just changing the oil in his vehicle.

12" tiles will not slope correctly to the drain, that is why you usually never see them installed in smaller residential situations.

i understand that, I had not thought of it in terms of slope only ease of install and less cuts, thanks!
Your friend is not correct. Tile and grout are NOT waterproof. The only way to waterproof your shower is with the Schluter system or other liquid applied membrane.

everything i have read has made me think of the tile and mortor as part of the drain, the only barrier is what is under or behind it.
Water will absorb through the tile and grout (even when grout is sealed) and make it's way onto either the rubber pan liner or kerdi and drain into the weep holes of the drain itself. Poking holes in the liner is a serious no no. Your coworker should stick to just changing the oil in his vehicle.

I could not agree more, as his intensions were good, he jumped into doing something w/o doing the research on how to do it correctly.

STATUS UPDATE:
I have downloaded the kedi book and ordered the tile book as you guys recomended, I installed the shut off valves last night and the access pannel on the other side of the wall. The House has no shut off valves anywhere, ugg!! kedi kits are supose to be here this weekend but I will be out of town. I will do some calling around tomorrow and find the morter you guys recomend also tomorrow.
I will put a link on here if possible to pics of the project as it moves through the processes.

ttp://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/workinallthetime/shower%20project/

there is a link to pic sof the process so far.
JazMan, i was able to buy right from the guys you gave me the number of here in tulsa, 13.50 a bag and I will be picking 5 bags up tomorrow. Can I use that to also set the tiles?

I was wonder if I could use my scrap kerdi curb material to build a small corner stoll in the shower?
I was thinking
after the walls were covered with kerdi and the pan, cut the left over curb and set it to the kerdi and cover it with kerdi then tile over it. nothing to rot away and should be strong enough?

Also any one have any pointers on what kind of disc to buy to make my own bull nose? have several grinders and I was wondering if i just need to buy a "masonary" disc to grind down the corners?

still reading the tile books, thanks guys'

Dirt

Your link doesnt work, as its asking for a password.

Can I use that to also set the tiles?

Yes

I was wonder if I could use my scrap kerdi curb material to build a small corner stoll in the shower?

Never used the kerdi curb, so I can't help you there. I always build my own curbs. I cant imagine you can stack the curb material though. Could be wrong, maybe someone else has experience with this.

Also any one have any pointers on what kind of disc to buy to make my own bull nose?

What kinda tile are you using, a natural stone, porcelain, ceramic?

I will fix the link when I get home tonight.
I will be using porcelain tile in both showers.
The kerdi curb seems to be solid enought to support the weight, but building a stool i s not out of the question at this point.
with the small size of the shower the stool will have to be small, If i frame it in with wood i see there are alot of concerns with this process but it looks like the kerdi system elimates the water intrusion issues with timber framing. There are 2 reasons in my head to not build it out of block.
#1 using the foam shower trey from kerdi I am worried about the weight on the trey over time
#2 i have no way to cut 45 degree cuts into a block that i know of.

shower project pictures by workinallthetime - Photobucket (http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s31/workinallthetime/shower%20project/)

Link works now

UGG!!!
made a diy'r mistake, soldered the shut off vlaves into the lines with the valves assembled. Tonight I will buy a couple more valves and x-fer the guts into the ones solded on. They are just bearly dripping over time but years from now that will be a huge problem.

It happens. Make sure there is no water in those lines within at least 6 inches of your soldering.

Least it hones your soldering skills, eh?

It happens. Make sure there is no water in those lines within at least 6 inches of your soldering.

Least it hones your soldering skills, eh?

Bought 2 new valves, decided to gut em and switch out the guts, I took one apart at work and found the only gasket to be at the top of the housing and its real cheesy. No big deal just another PIMY, lol. I will water test the plumbing tonight

Ok thought I came up with the tool of the century while working on this project only to find it has allready been invented. A inside tubing cutter for the drain pipe, trying to locate one now they seem to not be available in local box stores so I will order one and report on the sucess when I do the next shower, there is no access to the drain on that one.

HD should sell it:

BrassCraft Inside PVC Pipe Cutter - T109 at The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhm/R-100389424/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

cbu is almost done, I understand i should not tape the joints but just mud them in. sheetrock mud of thinset?

You have to tape the joints with the same thin set you'll set the tiles with. Who told you not to tape them? Do you have WonderBoard brand? You never use drywall compound under tile. The thin set does not like drywall compound. (Gypsum).

Jaz

WOW, good thing I stoped work for a bit. I read in the down loaded kerdi install book from john b that he does not tape the joints in the cbu due to build up that will x-fer into the plane the tiles wil be on. I thought i read to use sheetrock mud and not thinset on the cbu but in going back through my material I can not verify that. Next week I will finish the install of the cbu and mud the joints. I only lack one peice and it the one around the shower handle. I also have to put some scrap in around the top to make the union between the cbu and sheetrock.
I am using 1/2" hardi backer in the shower, I am using 12" tiles on the wall. and something smaller on the floor. I am also still debating on the foot stool idea and how to make it the best.
thanks for your help,
Dan

Dan,

Thanks for mentioning Kerdi since it is hard for us to go back and read the entire thread each time we answer.

So, since you are using my favorite method of building a shower (Kerdi), you can omit the taping of the seams. It won't hurt if you taped and applied a coat of thin set, but the Kerdi will act as the bridging membrane.

Some people seem to have problems keeping the build up to a minimum and they create "speed bumps" when they tape joints.:wall:

Hardi HUH? Make sure you hydrate that stuff just before you spread the thin set, (sponge it - mist it), cuz it'll suck the moisture out and cause problems. What thin set are you using?

Jaz

why im using the ditra you told me about from the place you were nice enough to find for me. Bought 5 bags to get me started. They were not the most helpful fellas, but they did sell to me w/o any problems. I had to tell them 5 times I did not have a purchase order to charge it to.

I'm confused..........whats going on

This forum requires that you wait 180 seconds between posts. Please try again in 6 seconds. :wall:

Finally ready for kedi foam pan install, does anyone know the tolerance for the pan to wall seam. Am i looking for a tight fit? a slight say 1/8" gap between pan and wall? All i can find is "cut to fit". I am asuming the kerdi band will seal any gap between the surfaces but as I am sure you all know a perfect square shower just does not exist.

Here is what i spent the night doing
I gut out the box the kerdi pan came in to the exact size of the shower, I located the drain in the cardborad and did some test fitting of the cardboard to the shower. Once I was happy with all the measurements and drain I transfered the layout to the kedri foam pan. My drain is not in the exact center but i do have enough fall on the kerdi pan to prevent water from standing in the shower.

Having a slight gap is alright.I would not want it extremely tight though.