Fences and Gates - How deep to bury the steel posts? (NYC)

Looking to put in steel posts to hang a wooden fence. how deep should the post go? is 3 ft sufficient for a 6 ft fence? the fence is stockade so it's going to bear some wind weight.

I'm outside of NYC just to give you an idea of geography.

Thanks!!

6" deeper than whatever your frost line is. And bell shape the holes -- wider at the bottom than at the top, so that they don't frost heave.

it looks like it's 4ft...so for a 6 ft fence i'll need approx 11 ft of pipe?

That's right. You have to get them below the frost line or they will heave.

If this is stockade on steel posts your posts would typically be about 4 - 5 inches lower than the top of your pickets, or about 2 inches above your top rail. With that you having a 6' high fence maybe about 2 inches or so off the ground. Both of these factors would leave you with about an additional 3 inches of post to deal with in the ground if you were using either 8 ' or 9 ' cut lengths of pipe.

You do not need to go down any futher than 2- 1/2 feet in depth. Any more is ok, but not needed. Giving the holes you dig a bell bottom type of look is best in most cases. Keep in mind that using concrete is very important. Please be generous in the use of cement.

If you live in a sandy location the extra depth would be reccomended . Nassau, Suffolk, Weschester , Brooklyn and even most of Staten Island you should be just fine using between an 8 -9 foot length of pipe.

If you are using 2 1/2" pipe, do not purchase in HD or their competitor. Their pipe is not sufficient in wall thickness. Go to a fence supply and have them cut your pieces for you . You may end up paying less for a much better product.

Good luck

Gregs Fence ~

If this is stockade on steel posts your posts would typically be about 4 - 5 inches lower than the top of your pickets, or about 2 inches above your top rail. With that you having a 6' high fence maybe about 2 inches or so off the ground. Both of these factors would leave you with about an additional 3 inches of post to deal with in the ground if you were using either 8 ' or 9 ' cut lengths of pipe.

You do not need to go down any futher than 2- 1/2 feet in depth. Any more is ok, but not needed. Giving the holes you dig a bell bottom type of look is best in most cases. Keep in mind that using concrete is very important. Please be generous in the use of cement.

If you live in a sandy location the extra depth would be reccomended . Nassau, Suffolk, Weschester , Brooklyn and even most of Staten Island you should be just fine using between an 8 -9 foot length of pipe.

If you are using 2 1/2" pipe, do not purchase in HD or their competitor. Their pipe is not sufficient in wall thickness. Go to a fence supply and have them cut your pieces for you . You may end up paying less for a much better product.

Good luck

Gregs Fence ~

Thanks for your response Greg...(i was hoping you would chime in). :)
i'm actually in Queens.

i'm definitely going to a fence supply store for the pipes. They gave me three options...heavy duty, med, or light. I'm going with 3 heavy (two on each ends and one somewhere around the middle) and the rest will be medium duty. It's going to be a ~60ft run (15 panels at 4ft each). the HD stuff looks like exhaust tubing from a car.

i was planning on digging about 3ft deep and purchasing 9ft pipes. add in some slight variables i think it should be slightly higher or maybe right on. i can always trim it down if needed.

is gravel needed below the cement for drainage or is that just a waste of time?

i'm going to be using some Simpson Strong Ties to mount the panels to the posts and then get some cedar or ACQ (same material as the fence) and box in the pipes for a more "finished look".

one thing i have concern is where to get the panels. I hear that HD is not all that great..is that still true? Lowes seems to have more of an selection or a few more designs than HD. Are they any better than HD? Or do i have to buck up and buy panels from the fence store? looking for stockade or dog ear panels...nothing too fancy but would like quality materials.

figure if the panels are really bad at least the posts will outlast them.

thanks!!

Frost heaving: Building a deck: expert advice from ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=1ggjXIWFnZMC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=frost+heave+with+gravel+under+footings&source=bl&ots=lzerQgMCJV&sig=NX2mXwEgTKepZbKhei_nnDhyZRQ&hl=en&ei=Vu8eSqnDLZWwtAPumMyPCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA31,M1)

How Aggregates Prevent Frost Heave (http://rockproducts.com/mag/rock_aggregates_prevent_frost/)

SULIS - Sustainable Urban Landscape Information Series: U of MN. (http://www.sustland.umn.edu/implement/deck_footings.html)
Be safe, G

MKTBully;

The use of gravel for a base works, but it is not always something needed. Granted if you live in an area that has a higher water table such as some areas of Queens that might be closer to the Airport , Like Rosedale, Springfield Gardens or some areas nearest that you may look into the gravel. But even that you would know about as soon as you begin digging. The best way to find out how high your water table is , is to dig a hole. Leave the hole open for a few hours. If it fills up with ground water you probably live in an area with a water table that is either on a constant high or in and out with the tides. If nothing appears in the hole in that time frame you should be good to go without it.

As for the pipe. Around you, depending on your more exact location I would say going to Boundry Fence and rail. I have used them before and they have the absolute largest selection of everything to choose from.

As for the sections of material... Consult them before going elsewhere. Check around with prices... Keeping in mind the thickness of a picket. Going to HD you will notice the picket is typically either 7/16" in thickness or at their very most being a full 1/2" thick. Most fence supply yards sell nothing less than a 5/8" right up to a 3/4" picket. Which is much better . The thicker the picket the longer it will last with the elements.

As for the brackets... I am not sure of the brackets you plan to use but brackets are also sold in fence supply yards. The best to use for a stockade fence on steel is one that would slide over the post and then have a ledge for the back rail to sit on. The reason this type of bracket is best is because you can more or less install the job alone because all you need do is sit the fence on the bracket and draw lag bolts in. In regards to those brackets you could use brackets on all three rails but that is not neccesary. I almost always use them on the top and bottom rails.. And in the middle I would use 2 1/2" tension bands.. with the flat side towards the wood, again using lag bolts to draw them into the woord.

Oh yeah, use lag bolts if you can... Screws work, but they get pulled on by the wind blowing against the fence. Lag bolts almost never get pulled out. Or not so easily anyway.

If you can not find galvanized lag bolts, buy those nickel plated types.. but also buy some galvanize cold spray to spray over the bolts... doing so will stop the bolts from rusting.

MKTBully;

The use of gravel for a base works, but it is not always something needed. Granted if you live in an area that has a higher water table such as some areas of Queens that might be closer to the Airport , Like Rosedale, Springfield Gardens or some areas nearest that you may look into the gravel. But even that you would know about as soon as you begin digging. The best way to find out how high your water table is , is to dig a hole. Leave the hole open for a few hours. If it fills up with ground water you probably live in an area with a water table that is either on a constant high or in and out with the tides. If nothing appears in the hole in that time frame you should be good to go without it.

As for the pipe. Around you, depending on your more exact location I would say going to Boundry Fence and rail. I have used them before and they have the absolute largest selection of everything to choose from.

As for the sections of material... Consult them before going elsewhere. Check around with prices... Keeping in mind the thickness of a picket. Going to HD you will notice the picket is typically either 7/16" in thickness or at their very most being a full 1/2" thick. Most fence supply yards sell nothing less than a 5/8" right up to a 3/4" picket. Which is much better . The thicker the picket the longer it will last with the elements.

As for the brackets... I am not sure of the brackets you plan to use but brackets are also sold in fence supply yards. The best to use for a stockade fence on steel is one that would slide over the post and then have a ledge for the back rail to sit on. The reason this type of bracket is best is because you can more or less install the job alone because all you need do is sit the fence on the bracket and draw lag bolts in. In regards to those brackets you could use brackets on all three rails but that is not neccesary. I almost always use them on the top and bottom rails.. And in the middle I would use 2 1/2" tension bands.. with the flat side towards the wood, again using lag bolts to draw them into the woord.

Oh yeah, use lag bolts if you can... Screws work, but they get pulled on by the wind blowing against the fence. Lag bolts almost never get pulled out. Or not so easily anyway.

If you can not find galvanized lag bolts, buy those nickel plated types.. but also buy some galvanize cold spray to spray over the bolts... doing so will stop the bolts from rusting.

I'm out in Bayside north of nothern blvd (if you know the area).
It doesn't seem to have high water table unlike Rosedale and areas by the airport...so i guess i can just dig and throw concrete in there with the post? but i will dig and see what i have. maybe i'll get oil to seep into the hole? :D

Ironically i actually called Boundry Fence for the price quotes on the posts out in Jamaica. I will definitely ask them to quote me on the panels and the other stuff.

here are the brackets i'm looking to use...(this is from their catalog).
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/shadysport/simpson.jpg

hmmm...so instead of screws into the bracket you recommend lag bolt?...well if i can't find galvanized hardware i'll look for some stainless steel or something that's rust resistant...unless you think that's a bad idea.

thanks again