Fences and Gates - stragegy for 17' swinging double gate

Hey everyone,

Looking for some advice/thoughts on building a double swinging gate. We live in a Portland, OR neighborhood where driveways aren't always the norm. So rather than a front driveway, we have a short back driveway that connects a rear-facing garage and a half to an alleyway that runs between the houses. Here's our setup:

u2vox : photos : Gate stuff (http://u2vox.smugmug.com/gallery/9075687_aDnSY#604448745_GCZW7)

We want to remove the existing fence that connects the right side of the garage altogether, essentially extending the fence line along the alleyway in the form of a double swinging gate. Although the diagram is not to scale, this will result in a much bigger "feel" to the overall backyard and space behind the house. We don't really use the driveway area for the car, but we need to be able to have it accommodate that if we ever need/want to.

The problem is that the opening is currently a bit over 17 feet - let's call it about 17'6". I know that's a big opening for a double swinging gate, but we really do need that kind of size if we ever want to get in and out of there with a car, etc. The alleyway is very narrow, so we need that width to accommodate turning radius and multi-point turns to get in/out, etc.

So, I'm looking for any advice on how to create the double swinging gate. I came up with the following rough outline of what I might create, again not to scale, but it gives you the idea:

u2vox : photos : Gate stuff (http://u2vox.smugmug.com/gallery/9075687_aDnSY#604448742_YkKr9)

Since each section will be about 8.5’ long, we pretty much have to do everything we can to minimize gate sage and pull on the posts, including the following:

- Z-brace
- Gate sag wire kit
- Gate angle brackets in each corner to make square and give structure
- Spring-loaded gate caster to remove load on the posts

On the good side, the posts that each gate will be attached to are each at the end of a reasonably long line of back fencing - so I'm assuming that this will provide a good amount of structure and help reduce any sag of the gates toward each other in the middle.

With regard to the gate casters, does anyone have any idea of what kind of gate casters will offer significant vertical play? The reason I ask is that the driveway has a notable slope towards the back alleyway. So, I'm guessing the gates will need to roll "up" about 2-3 inches or so over the course of the full inward swing. I assume I could also offset the hinges a little as I've seen in other recommendations, but I'm not big on giving that a try if it can be solved in another way.

One other option I've thought about is to buy an adjustable steel gate, like the ones described here:

Adjustable Steel Gate Kits for Wood Fences - HOOVER FENCE COMPANY - Use our adjust-a-gate steel frame gate kits for gates 4, 5, and 6 foot high gates with widths up to 16' wide! (http://www.hooverfence.com/woodfence/ag.htm)

They make one that can accommodate 8' - so two together and I've got 16' covered. The problem is that I'd need to somehow cover the extra 3/4 of a foot or so that would be left next to each existing post. Any ideas here? Would this be a better option all-around, given weight issues with wood, etc., as long as there is a good way to fill in that extra foot and a half? Note that there is concrete driveway right next to the posts along the gate line.

Many, many thinks for any thoughts/insight.

Welcome to the forums! 8 1/2' gates will be heavy, especially attached to thin air, since you can't attach them to your neighbor's back fence. Figure that out first. Also figure the weight of the gate at 90 degrees to the fence. What will keep it from sagging the fence in that direction?
Have you thought about, and will your terrain allow for an 18' sliding gate? They roll on wheels and your profile is the same as your end of the back fence, without taking up any of your yard space for swinging gates, bashed doors, etc. You can even put motors on them with remote controls that allow them to open automatically when you tell it to.
Just some thoughts.

I'm with Larry -- I'd install a sliding gate right along the wall of the garage.

No sag issues, no loss of usable back yard, no monsterous footings that would be needed to support a post for a gate panel that's almost 9' wide, ...

Lefty and chandler, thank you for the welcome and replies. Much appreciated.

I did, in fact, initially consider a rolling/sliding fence. However, there are several issues that made me steer clear. First is cost, since from what research I've done this seems to be relatively costly (correct me if I'm wrong). Second is the intended use and condition of the location where the gate will roll/slide/be. I've included several more actual pictures I took last night of the area, along with descriptions, here:

u2vox : photos : Gate stuff (http://u2vox.smugmug.com/gallery/9075687_aDnSY#604448742_YkKr9)

(note: per chandler's comment, the post and fence on that one side is ours, not our neighbor's - the neighbor's fence attaches to it and extends along the back of their property)

Since the gate would be up against an alleyway, and that alleyway is pretty small/narrow and currently not kept up, actual use of the gate would be REALLY infrequent. We want it there mostly for 1) in case we ever do need to use it for a car, to drop something off, bring equipment in, etc., and 2) to open it up a bit and play some hoops back there via an intended basketball net above the garage door. :)

As a result, concern over a bit of sag, etc., is not as great as it would be in other situations. Furthermore, while ideal, remotes and motors would be way overkill and way beyond cost for what we want to do.

Related, as you can see from the images, the area where the wheels would be rolling is not level or even - it's a mix of rocks, soil, weeds, etc., that goes generally upward since the alleyway is sloped. The cement driveway also raises up a little from where the dirt begins.

Now, I'm thinking that this will all cause plenty of trouble if we tried to put in a manual sliding gate. However, if I'm mistaken, I'm certainly open to suggestions and corrections about my assumptions.

That said, if I do go with a swinging gate option, would it really be that bad, given the thoughts in my initial post about maintaining structure, the fact that we could, supposedly, put the ends on fixed casters (as long as I can find some spring-loaded ones that can accommodate the 2-3" change in height as they go over the driveway), and the fact that each portion would be attached to a long back fence area?

And if we do go with swinging, any thoughts on full wood frame vs. the extending metal frame similar to the one listed in the hoover fence link?

Again, thanks for any advice.

Hearing all you have to say, and the good advice that was offered here on the sliding gate, I think you should probably go with the Hoover Gate Kit you mentioned. You may have to put in another gate post, maybe not. Good Luck; Jack

Hey Jack -- Good to see you back!! It's been a while!

u2vox, you're talking about the area being uneven, rocky, clumps of dirt, weeds and whatever -- generally saying that you feel it's too rough for a guide wheel on a sliding gate to work in. The same thing applies to the wheels that you are talking about putting under your swinging gate. I think that you'll find that the rough surface conditions will be even worse for a swinging gate than they are for a sliding gate.

The Hoover swinging gates will work. The steel frames and the anti-sag cable system will take "sag" out of the picture, at least as far as the gate frames are concerned.

My concern is all of the strain that the weight that a 9' gate panel is going to put on the posts. Spring loaded wheels would help at first, but being spring loaded, they aren't going to offer any real support to take the strain off of the post. The spring will just allow the panel to drop as the panels weight is bending the posts over.

I've got an 11' opening that I installed double swinging gates in. To build the posts I dug 18" diameter holes 30" deep, embedded 1-7/8" chain link posts in, then poured my concrete driveway between the posts. Once the concrete was cured, I put in 12" X 12" slump block column blocks for the posts and filled them with concrete. From each of those post I'm swinging a 5-1/2' X 6' VINYL panel mounted to a steel frame. Vinyl weighs about 1/4 of what wood panels would, and my panels are about 3' narrower than what you are talking about. That's STILL a lot of pressure on those posts. My posts probably wouldn't support the panels that you are talking about putting up, so plan your footings accordingly.

If you don't have a continous concrete slab BETWEEN your posts, the weight of the gates will pull the posts over.

I've seen too many large swinging gate panels pull gate posts over, and I think that's where you are heading with this one. That's why I'm suggesting a sliding gate.

Pour a 12" wide strip of concrete thru that opening for the guide wheel of a sliding gate to roll on, and the roughness of the area is taken out of the picture. The cost of sliding gate hardware vs. the cost of the Hoover system -- I'm guessing it's about the same, and you won't have the added costs of monsterous footing for the gate posts. You don't need a motor on the gate. Like you said -- it won't be getting opened or closed that often.

Hey guys,

Thanks again for the replies and advice. My delay in responding is due mostly to some re-thinking we've been doing on the fence, given the comments and advice provided.

One of the main things that I think we've decided to do is to shift from using cedar boards, as the main fence is, to corrugated metal. This would go well with everything else in the back, serve the privacy/closure purpose, and presumably be a LOT less heavy than boards all the way across.

I took a look at some rolling gates as well. Looks to me like the basic mechanism is to have the bottom wheels on one side of thee rolling gate, pipes attached to the back of the fence, and the rolling wheels attached to the moving gate, rolling over the top pipe and under the bottom pipe. Seems fairly straightforward, provided we have the right HW, etc. A few questions:

1. If we do decide to stick with the swinging gate (inward, so wheels would roll over the poured concrete of the driveway, not the rough alleyway), would going with corrugated metal + wood frame be enough to ease concerns about load on the posts?

2. If we go rolling, there is a noticeable slope upwards along the alleyway (I'd say it could be 6-8 inches over the course of the 18 feet or so of roll - need to confirm). For the gate to remain a few inches off the ground as it rolls, we'd have to dig down to make the area it rolls over level. Or, we could just live with a higher opening at the bottom, I guess, and have it the roll slope upward slightly - IF we could find a spring loaded wheel (or some other mechanism) that would accommodate that kind of change in height, and IF it's at all conceivable that we could angle the pipe tracks attached to the back fence along the slope of the roll. Is that possible, or imply crazy talk? Do we just need to dig that area out, pour a small strip and make it level? The main issue with digging a level strip is not the work - it's the fact that we'd probably be going into the alleyway slightly, outside our property. We cannot do an inside sliding gate due to landscaping and an AC unit that is there.

3. If we go rolling with corrugated metal, do we need to go with a metal frame for the gate (most are made with chain link in mind)? Could we go with wood? Do they make the appropriate gate HW (rollers, pipe attachments, etc.), that can be mounted to wood? The only ones I've seen are those that mount to metal pipes. We'd prefer a wood frame to have that "look" and tie-in with the fence. Plus, I'm just more familiar working with wood than I am with piping, soldering, etc.

Thanks, guys - the thoughts and advice are much appreciated. Great forums...