Designing Kitchens and Bathrooms - Shower stall leakage issues and possible mold??

First, hi to all! Thought I registered here before, but maybe too long ago. Anywhoo......here's my situation....

So, we bought our house new in '96. I've always hated the shower design, but just lived with it. On a follow-up for a punch list repair a few years later, I noticed the builder's rep had R & R'd all the rubber/silicone at the base of the shower. I didn't think much of it, but now I know........

Nice lookin' shower, right?------ http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/redgtxdi/shower/IMG_2433.jpg

Wait, what's goin' on here??------- http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/redgtxdi/shower/IMG_2434.jpg

Eeeewwww! Maybe just clean out & re-silicone?------- http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/redgtxdi/shower/IMG_2436.jpg

A closer look where I peeled the bubbling paint off the wall.---- http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/redgtxdi/shower/IMG_2438.jpg

And since I had already pulled the bottom rubbers out, this kinda' shows the poor design but up at the top......

Horrible corner design.------ http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/redgtxdi/shower/IMG_2442.jpg

And to be honest, the tops actually meet up in the corners better than at the bottom. At the bottom the rubbers actually came up short of the corners and they just flooded the channels w/ tons of silicone.

Don't know whether to call my homeowner's insurance or just treat it like a home improvement project? :confused:

Well, you never liked it to begin with..right? Don't call the HO ins for this..they'd probably deny it and raise your rates anyway.

I'd say its a perfect time to get a shower you like. Looks like you have enough room to make it wider (party shower...lol).

I did it with mine at my last house..looked great..wished I'd found this site for advice first..oh well...someone elses problem now. For probably $1000 or less and a few weekends..you could have a showpiece.

No Pro here..but they'll be around eventually.

I would not go through your insurance like already stated!

Really, this all depends on your budget. You may get away with removing all that caulking and apply new, or do what I always suggest, tear it all out.

Not sure about getting a new shower for a $1k, but it's could be doable if you do all the work and have not plumbing/framing/electrical problems like I had with mine.

Only reason I consider insurance is I have no clue if there's mold in the walls.

It seems whenever I watch home improvement shows, it always starts w/ a little corner somewhere & then there's friggin' mold everywhere by the time they get inside.

I'd like to just clean, re-silicone, spackle, paint and be done. (Probably have to get some new rubber pieces as the ones I tore out are gnarly gross)

I dunno. Just scared, I guess. :eek:

Wait, what's goin' on here??------- http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/redgtxdi/shower/IMG_2434.jpg



Typical problem. Water gets behind the shower pan flange from some source, whether it be at the caulk joint or from grout or corners. It eventually gets behind the tiles and runs along the flange, and out behind the door frame, and rots the wall. I have had to fix many of these.

In most of my cases though, I am dealing with plastic surrounds that do this. Obviously, the material itself does not leak. The leak is from corner joints, bad caulk, and perhaps from mixer valves and spouts, with water getting behind the plastic and getting trapped behind it and running along the flange until it reaches the wall outside the shower stall, and then makes the sheetrock wet along with the stud behind it. Under certain conditions, mushrooms can grow in the area.

You have to cut out the damaged sheetrock, outside the shower stall, and dry the joint where the pan and wall meet at the flange. Roughen it up if you can, then use a good adhesive sealant. Nothing less effective than silicone caulk, and force it in that joint, so that water can no longer get out. Then when water reaches that caulk or other sealant, it has to run back toward the stall and weep back into the shower pan. To enable this, it would help to actually leave the joint uncaulked on the inside of the shower right where the caulk along the top of the shower pan is, that meets that door frame. That way, water can weep out there if water is trapped behind the flange. But it actually should not be there, so that really needs to be addressed also.

In your case, with the tile, you will also want to make sure the tiles are good and secure by rapping on tiles with your knuckle, and listening. And that there are no cracked grout. And that the grout is all good and sealed. And any corner joint is caulked good after you first make sure no soap scum is on the tile before caulking. Also make sure that water cannot get in above the mixer valve. And if it does, that it can weep out any trim plate at the bottom. You never want to caulk completely all the way around any trim covers or escutcheons, so that water can weep out the bottom.

Also remember this if securing outside lights against your house siding, that likewise it is a good idea to caulk the joint, but not the bottom.

Bummer!

That sounds like more than my skillset. The portion of drywall there is really short. I doubt that even if I cut the drywall out, I could really see where (if so) it was getting into the wall from behind.

I knocked on all the tiles around the bottom & they all seem solid. There's maybe a tiny pinhole in the grout in one of the back corners and I'll definitely fill that just to be safe, but the rest of the grout looks continous & good.

My best guess at this point is that the water got into the bottom of the glass frame and tends to leak forward and with no easy return back to the pan, wept thru the grout line where the vertical frame meets that forward wall of tile and just seeped into the drywall there.

It's hard for me to tell if the wall's actually wet. I can't tell if it's moist or cold. I tried to put a kleenex up to it, but still can't really tell. If it's just from the front & I sanded, spackled & painted the wall and cleaned & siliconed the heck out of the bottom again and then maybe cleared out an area at the bottom of the frame railing to allow seeping to direct itself back toward the pan, would that work as a solution?

(I'm even thinking about possibly drilling a few tiny holes at the bottom of the frame railing to *ensure* that that's where any lost water finds its way back)

Thanks, btw, for all the replies so far!!!

Another thought...........

What about knocking out the bottom row (or two) of tile and completely disassembling the glass/framing doors & stuff and seeing what's behind there??

My father-in-law has done lots of tiling. I could always have him help me re-tile and then either do a hack job on the drywall repair or even hire somebody to patch that part up.

That'd kind of be the point of no return, but it'll help me wrap my head around where water is going and how the glass/framing goes together so I can figure out for myself how I could put it back together better.

EDIT:---And would I want to break the tiles out or is there a way to extract them without breaking them???

TIA

What is behind the tile, cement board, greenboard, regular drywall?

Can you cut an access hole in a room that the shower backs up to, to get a better look at whats going on?

IIRC, it's Wonderboard. (Before Hardiboard was popular?)

We actually bought the house before it was finished and got to see most of the construction. It was definitely a different color than the regular sheetrock......(1996 so methinks before Hardiboard?)

There is a coat closet I could cut into from the backside, but that would be away from the corner where the leak is showing.

And I need to ask another question in the midst of this.......

The wife is hittin' me up for just redoing the whole shower. My own dad thinks that fiberglass pan is the best way to go, but I'd really like to do a whole tiled-out setup & create a nice bench seat, corner caddies, etc. (Maybe travertine & frameless glass setup, etc.)

I've seen folks advertising that mortar/lathe is the only "best" solution, but I've also heard that eventually tile is going to leak thru no matter what, who, how, etc.

Anybody have input/suggestions on that if we do just go whole-new shower?

TIA

Mortar bed is old school...not that it won't work, but it takes skill and knowledge to do it right.

If you want simple and waterproof..see this..Schluter-KERDI-SHOWER-KIT - Schluter-Systems (http://www.schluter.com/8_4_kerdi_shower_kit.aspx). I don't know the actual cost but it is greatly outweighed by the savings in labor for someone who knows what they are doing with a mortar install.

Basically its put up sheetrock (no cement backerboard required), put down the preformed pan and curb, put on the Kerdi membrane, put up the tile.

Earlier you said you did your shower too?

Did you not use the Kerdi setup?? (And if not, how'd you find that info?)

What kind of setup did you do for yours??

(Curious)

TIA!

I did the mortar bed and all that..I was trying to do it cheap as I was selling. Actually I didn't do too bad except for choice of tile (too large and too slippery for the floor) and some drain issues. I did listen to the wrong person and used mastic instead of thinset for the walls. Hey, the buyers caught me at a rough time and got $9K for their closing costs and the realtors each got the same...I don't feel too bad if they wind up replacing it.

If I was doing it for myself now..I'd use the Kerdi. I've seen it here and several of the DIY shows like TOH and Holmes on Homes.

Mortar bed is traditional and cheap, Kerdi is easier to install, waterproof, and a bit more expensive.


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I know it'd only be speculation, but aside from the ballpark $1k for a total DIY scenario, anybody care to guess the cost of a full shower using kerdi, having it done by a pro? And what savings might be going old school mortar bed??

Or would not doing kerdi "DIY" be an abomination to men?

lol..no... but from what I've seen and read..you could have it tile ready in a weekend doing it DIY. The pro's may be able to give more insight.

$1000 for a custom built shower - hmmmm, I don't think so. If that is your budget, your best bet is to keep what you have until you can afford more.

You have not given near enough info about your shower for anyone to give you an estimate as to what a pro would charge. Additionally, prices will vary greatly depending on what part of the country you live in.

You can either build a traditional custom shower or a kerdi shower. Either one if built correctly will last a long, long time. I'm not building kerdi showers these days, primarily because homeowners are looking to cut costs where they can and I can build a traditional pan with pan liner cheaper and just as fast. I personally don't find kerdi showers to be any less labor intensive, but that may be because I don't build them every day like some.

Kerdi trays only come in a few sizes, and if you have to modify the tray size, you might as well build a mudbed slope instead.

Bottom line, if you can afford the kerdi shower materials, you'll likely end up with a better shower, however, if you build a traditional shower with pvc or cpe pan liner you will also end up with a very good shower. No matter which method you choose, the key is to do it right.

The $1K number was just based on gunguy45's suggestion. My expectation if I have someone do it is around $3K after all's said & done.

I'm sure it's easy to spend $10K on a shower if somebody wants to, but I definitely do not.

Only concern is that even *after* I get the shower done, I need to decide whether to re-use the glass partition/door that's currently there or whether to ditch that POS for a nice, frameless glass setup where you don't have so many freakin' concealed channels where water can stow away & make trouble.
:madhell:

Along those same lines, I was kinda' wondering, too, about the curb on those kerdi kits. Foam & membrane.....hmmmmm. Then, you're supposed to mount heavy glass on top of those??

Obviously it works, but I didn't think about it 'til I watched one of the install videos. That's definitely some lightweight material to mount a door to.

P.S. Contractor coming Friday to view the situation.

Along those same lines, I was kinda' wondering, too, about the curb on those kerdi kits. Foam & membrane.....hmmmmm. Then, you're supposed to mount heavy glass on top of those??

Obviously it works, but I didn't think about it 'til I watched one of the install videos. That's definitely some lightweight material to mount a door to.

I've done several kerdi showers, but never with the kerdi tray and curb. I've mudded the slope and curb instead, and you can do the same. I've used a lot of Schluter products over the years and for the most part, they all do what they are suppose to. I'd not hesitate to use their entire kerdi shower kit and feel comfortable with the results.

Is that $3,000 you are looking to spend inclusive of labor and all materials? Where do you live?

Yes, labor and materials.

Southern California, the 2nd most expensive place to live on the earth!

:cool:

Just a note on mounting doors to the curb. Swinging doors depend on the upper side mount to support them, the bottom is to just keep it aligned and support the direct weight down. Not really that big a deal.

Sliding doors hang from the top track and the bottom track is normally just siliconed down.

So really not much weight is applied to the high density foam they use. Probably more weight from people standing inside on the pan than from the doors. Heck you can walk across the regular 2" white insulation boards w/o leaving much of a mark.

Should have just copied this from their site in the first place...lol...

Q. What are the Schluter-KERDI-SHOWER-ST/-SC tray and curb made of? Can they really support the tile assembly?

A. The Schluter-KERDI-SHOWER-ST/-SC tray and curb are made of expanded polystyrene (EPS) foam with a high compressive strength (57 psi). They provide a convenient, lightweight, and stable substrate for the Schluter-KERDI waterproofing membrane and tile. After the tile is installed and grouted, the assembly will support all the loads typical of tiled showers. This can include glass doors or glass block walls.

Daggum, even the glass blocks. That's impressive as depending on how high you go those glass block walls can get heavy, quick!!

I'm about a New York minute away from totally disassembling that glass/aluminum partition. I kinda' want to wait for the contractor to see it in its current state, but I've got an itch that just won't quit when I look at the screw heads on that alum frame and I'm just DYIN' to take that sucker apart.

(sits on hands) :NO NO NO:

If everything was sealed right, with good solid grout, sealer, and caulk - you would not have that wall damage at the bottom right. Obviously though, something is not sealed somewhere.

You have tile. But the same scenario occurs with other shower pans that have some other wall material on them. The principle is still the same. If for any reason water gets behind the shower wall material (tile in your case), it gets trapped back there between the back of the tile (up against where the shower pan flange is) and the caulk along the top of the pan. Then that water trapped back there flows toward where your wall damage is. Remember that if that indeed is happening, that no matter how well caulked the rightside vertical alum. frame is and the bottom frame - if water got back there from some other way (say from up higher), it is going to run out of the shower behind the tile.

Just gouge out all the damage till you are against likely a stud at that corner, and look back in toward the shower pan and you will see that joint.... what I am talking about. It is obvious if you are an observant person. Nobody taught me on my first such repair. I simply demolished the bad spot and looked to see how that could have occured, and as I said, it is obvious. So then you seal that end so the water cannot get out and wick against that wall anymore. That damage you see is all from a tiny, tiny amount of water wicking into it over time.

If you want to rebuild your shower, that is an entire different matter. I am pointing you the way to simply doing an effective repair in stopping the problem, which by bad design, almost invariably always happens. I have done lots of these very repairs.

Update (well, sort of)......

So, I'm on contractor #2 cuz #1 couldn't make it today. I've put #1 in a holding pattern for now cuz it's an "acquaintance" of a co-worker who couldn't make it today either and I was a little leary at first anyway & this just confirms that it's probably a road I don't want to go down.

To better that, #2 forgot to call this morning (secretary said 8-8:30am call, for sure) and I finally called THEM today at 2pm. Looks like I *should* get somebody lookin' at it tomorrow morning, but I ain't holdin' my breath. This one was from servicemagic and there are 2 more listed, but haven't heard from them, so I'll probably call them tomorrow after #2 leaves.

I expect to get a price for.....

#1.) Repairing the existing situation
#2.) Full reno, including the cool tile, bench seat and frameless glass.
#3.) Some compromise of those two to satisfy the wife and the pocketbook.

(P.S. Looked at a bunch of different door designs today & I have yet to find one that I could not find at least one place for water to become a problem in) :thumbdn:

If they quote you less then 2.5k, show them the door. Ask for references. Check insurance, check BBB, check the municpality. If a contractor is bad enough, the city won't allow them to pull permits, so check.

Remember, 'cheap' and 'good' do NOT work. You can't have both when it comes to bathrooms.

More importantly, I would go with a tile setter who deals with tile and showers everyday. A general contractor may not have the skills to make a leak proof shower, specially the bench area.

First quote...... $4,400

Fully custom shower. Mopped in (inquired about kerdi which he said he'd be happy to do, but suggested his mop guy is top notch & preferred), bench seat, custom tile install, shampoo niche, widen stall from 35 to 37 or 38", slide-bar shower and "much better" framed-glass door setup.

He said about $900 more for frameless glass setup if I wanted. So, I inquired about benefits of frameless glass aside from trend and he said there *are* some sealing benefits do to fewer seams, etc. but otherwise just en vogue.

Any suggestions??

TIA! :thumbup:

(P.S. Also inquired about just fixing the current situation and he gave me the # of door folks he uses and said around $600 for a 'better' door setup. But with the wall patch work and not knowing what's behind the tile if I demo *ANY* of the tile work, I question why not to just do a whole custom shower)

???

Hop mop, you must be in California, yes? From what I have heard, thats pretty much the only way it's done out there. Typical with hot mop is also mud walls. If that's the case, sounds like you may have found the right guy for the job.

I thought you said in an earlier post that you had cement board behind the tile. Is this not the case?

Yup, Southern California. (Had no idea Cali was so famous for hot mop, but learning that pretty quickly).

As for the material behind, I'm going from memory as I visited our tract every day as my house was being built. It was a darker color wall-board than regular sheetrock. The 1st guy I spoke to said it sounded like it was probably Wonderboard and I think I recall my old man sayin' the same thing when he saw it. The 1st guy said he hates the stuff, along w/ Hardi, greenboard, etc.

I talked to another plumbing GC who said he "likes" hardiboard, but I dunno, w/o either tar, membrane or something impervious to water up there, the idea of "board" behind a wet environment just isn't confidence inspiring. (to me, anyway)

Seeing another contractor this morning. On the phone the guy made suggestions like doing a "corner bench" instead of a full-bench to keep the glass door assembly more of a standard setup (reducing costs) and that sounded good to me. I like when people think outside of the box. I don't know if that means the 1st guy could reduce his $$ if *he* did a corner instead of full-bench or if it never even crossed his mind??

???? (Continued thanks for the replies too!!! :thumbup: )

OK, so GC #2 just left. He's actually taking a different approach. He says he's not a fan of tar anymore. Been in biz since 1980 and said he can't find a good hotmop guy these days and therefore has lost faith in it......(well, probably not the technology so much as the people).

Anyway, he says he likes to use a PVC pan (but suggested it built out to whatever size I want) w/ membrane/liner about 1 foot up the walls. (He, too, didn't seem up to speed on kerdi/hydroban).

He said he likes Hardibacker more than anything else which is why he only goes up a foot w/ the liner. He suggested 100% confidence in his style of shower and I definitely threw enough questions at him to keep him going. (He talked about "folding the membrane over" and "no cut pieces/seams whatsoever to eliminate ANY chance of leakage".)

Does he mean that grey stuff I see in rolls at HD/Lowes???

He suggested we can build out the niche as big as I like and also suggested raising the tile height to a full 7-foot. (It's about 6'4" right now). He said he'll quote corner bench or full-bench & see where pricing comes out.

He guesses in the $4K range but will give me a full-quote tonite.

Opinions??? TIA!!! :)

Don't pick your contractor based on price alone. I'm not saying that the more expensive installation will be better, it may or may not be.

Make sure #2 will be putting in a preslope under the pvc liner. This is a very important step. When he says no cut in the liner, what does he propose to do at the curb? Will he be using the preformed corners where the curb meets the walls? What will he build the bench out of, wood or masonry? How will he waterproof the bench? You cannot waterproof a bench seat with pvc liner. How will he waterproof the niche?

He said he likes Hardibacker more than anything else which is why he only goes up a foot w/ the liner.

I don't understand this statement. You are not assuming that hardi is waterproof, right? Hardi won't perform any better or any worse that wonderboard, durock or others. They are all unaffected by water, however none of them is waterproof. Make sure a vapor barrier is installed behind the hardi. 6 mil poly is good for this.

He says he's not a fan of tar anymore. Been in biz since 1980 and said he can't find a good hotmop guy these days and therefore has lost faith in it......(well, probably not the technology so much as the people).

I'm from NJ but if you check around in your area, you'll find that almost every custom shower pan is hot mopped. I'm not buying that there are no good hot moppers in your area. Nothing wrong with a pvc pan liner, but I question why he would knock hot mop? Its a proven method thats been around for a long time.

Do your homework on both these guys. While price should be a factor, don't let price be the only deciding factor.

OK, 2nd bid is in.

$4,600 which includes everything, including the full-size bench (kinda' what I'd hoped for anyway), frameless glass (yes, custom cut for full-size bench), slide-bar shower, custom niche, custom tile work, etc.

This opposed to the $4,400 bid using hot mop and framed glass. Another $900 for frameless which would be $5,300 total. (So about $700 under first bid)

EDIT: Just asked him your questions..........here's his answers.....

Yes, he preslopes before PVC. He said he "folds" corners at back as well as at the curb.

He said bench is framed in.(no masonry) He said the bench is "inside the envelope" (felt, poly, hardi) so there's no worry of leakage. (???)

As for the niche, he said it's also inside the envelope & no worries of leakage. (No PVC up that far, he said).

He *did* say he'd use poly under the Hardi as well as a felt underneath the poly. (He said he does too many 2nd story jobs not to be extra careful.)

Feedback? (TIA)

Yes, he preslopes before PVC. He said he "folds" corners at back as well as at the curb.

Does he use preformed corners at the curb where the liner will be cut to go over the curb? If not, how will he prevent water penetration at the curb?

He said bench is framed in.(no masonry) He said the bench is "inside the envelope" (felt, poly, hardi) so there's no worry of leakage. (???)

If the bench is framed, it needs to be cover in cement board and waterproofed somhow. Masonry benches are built inside the pan where as wood framed benches are built outside the pan. Your response doesnt make sense. How will he waterproof the bench. Perhaps a paint on membrane like Redgard?

As for the niche, he said it's also inside the envelope & no worries of leakage. (No PVC up that far, he said).

Makes no sense either. Poly and felt are vapor barriers, not waterproofing. There is a difference. The niche and bench must be "waterproofed". Redgard or something like it will work here.

He *did* say he'd use poly under the Hardi as well as a felt underneath the poly. (He said he does too many 2nd story jobs not to be extra careful.)

Use either poly or felt, not both. Use only one vapor barrier.

He didn't mention anything about using any kind of waterproofing at the bench or at the niche.

And he was very clear about using both a felt paper (tar paper?) and poly, both, behind the hardibacker against the studs.

He didn't say anything about using preformed corners at the curb. Only that he folds the PVC at the corners, including at the curb.

Aside from the bench and niche, this thread seems to be similar to the way he does things if that helps.......

Hot mop, old school. - Fix-it Forum: Home Improvement & Do It Yourself Repair Forum (http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/messages/79092.html)

???

He didn't mention anything about using any kind of waterproofing at the bench or at the niche.

Both must be surface waterproofed. I don't make this stuff up, and I don't make the rules. As you are aware, neither tile, grout nor cement board is waterproof. How do you propose to keep moisture/water from reaching the wood framing of the bench seat?????

And he was very clear about using both a felt paper (tar paper?) and poly, both, behind the hardibacker against the studs.

Only 1 is required, and only 1 or the other should be used.

He didn't say anything about using preformed corners at the curb. Only that he folds the PVC at the corners, including at the curb.

You did not answer my question. How will keep water from penetrating the area where the curb meets the wall without the preformed pan liner corners? This is an a very common area for water penetration and failure.

Some things for you to look at.

Mortar Bed Shower Floor for Tile Showers (http://johnbridge.com/mortar_bed_shower_floor.htm)

Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb. (http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html)

Untitled Document (http://www.compotite.com/blue_inst_eng.htm)

Hmmmm......interesting stuff. Thanks for the links! I've seen the masonry bench article before, but I already got the sense that GC#2 believes his method is best....(though masonry certainly makes logical sense to me).

I'll probably wait a bit to call the guy again as I've barraged him w/ questions all day yesterday. And if he doesn't have clear enough answers, maybe he's not the right guy for the job?

My guess would be that he wouldn't complete the pan/curb w/o ensuring a sufficient seal at the curb corners (preformed corner or otherwise) but I'm not so sure on the bench & niche. *I* could certainly Redgard myself while they're doing that (or ask the guy actually doing it at the time to seal it) but I'd rather have full confidence in the person w/ the trowel in-hand.

Hopefully going to get one more GC out who appears to like Kerdi showers. I'll definitely report back when I have more info. (If I don't run down to HD and slap in a $500 fiberglass enclosure & shower curtain & shine all this tile stuff altogether) :eek:

It is the contractors job to do the job right. It is your job to educate yourself enough to know that the job is being done right. There are many great looking showers that fail in a short period of time. I'd not be afraid to ask all the important questions.:)