Air Conditioning - AC stopped cooling - Low R-22, leak at TXV connection – price quote

Good morning :coffee:,

I know it is DIY forum, but it looks like some people here may be working as HVAC technicians. Please let me know if there is more appropriate place/forum for AC repair price quotes.

One of our AC units, 4 ton York Affinity 2S (12 seer w R-22) stopped cooling. A technician said that our refrigerant level was extremely low & in 30 minutes (=$75) he found a leak at thermostatic expansion valve connection to the evaporator coil.

He said that his charges to fix it would be the following: replace evap. coil - $275, cost of coil - $723 + labor from $150 to $600. He charges $150 per hour & couldn’t tell how long it would take him to replace the coil. Thus, total would range from $1150 to $1600 (not incl the cost of refrigerant), but he mentioned that probably it would be somewhere in the middle.

Is it a reasonable price for the job like this :confused: I was shocked by this quote, but I never dealt with AC repairs before, so I don’t really know… I would think that $150 per hour labor charge should cover the act of "replacing the coil", but for some reason the quote includes separate $275 on the top of labor charges.
Also, he offered a less expensive solution of trying to solder TXV connection, but for $274.70 + labor he doesn’t even guarantee that the problem would be fixed. Basically, he didn’t recommend that solution, but presented it after looking at my "OMG, I can’t believe this" face :).
Thank you.

Why is it leakng? corrosion? poor brazing in the first place? was the valve installed at the factory or at the time of installation? How fast does it leak down? You know you are not required to repair the leak. Did he quote his refrigerant price? Some places are getting $30+ per pound, so your looking at another $200 to $300. At $150 an hour, I'm tempted to go back to work. I used to do coil jobs starting at $900 for the smaller sizes and adding $50 as the size increased. Example- 1.5/2 tons- $900, 2.5/3 tons $950, and so on. That included everything- coil replacement, refrigrerant, filter-drier, evacuation, recharge, labor. If the unit was in the attic but near the scuttle hole I didn't charge extra, but a unit difficult to get to out in the middle of an attic cost $100 more which mostly paid for the plywood I across the ceiling joists so I wouldn't step thru the ceiling. Any chance you could post some pictures of the leak? I would like to see if the leak is repairable. Supposing you had a bad TXV? What would he do, sell you a new coil instead of replacing the valve?

I think I have some kind of bad luck when it comes to AC. Our electric company was running a promo where they gave a list of approved companies who agreed to do a seasonal check for $59.95. As a responsible homeowner, I scheduled an appointment for our 3 units (3, 4 & 5 tons). The company apologized that they were pretty busy and gave me an appointment in 1,5 weeks. I didn’t care because at that moment all units were working.

3 days before the appointment our 3 ton unit stopped spinning & 5 ton unit was working, but not cooling. Two of our units automatically turned a seasonal tune-up into $69.95 service call. I guess our 5 ton unit was not cooling for a while, but we didn’t notice it because other 2 working units were covering that up.

It appeared that a condenser fan motor broke on our 3 ton unit. It was replaced under York warranty and my charges were $69.95 (service call) + $75 (for picking up a replacement fan - 30 minutes) + $150 (per hour labor charge) = $312 inc taxes. A tune up was not performed because our technician said that the unit just started spinning and he couldn’t perform any tests.
The 2d broken unit, 5 ton, was diagnosed with the R-22 leak: $69.95 service call + $75 for finding a leak (took 30 minutes). Only 4 ton unit had that $59.95 tune up.

We postponed the repair of our 5 ton unit (covers 2d floor - nobody sleeps there now), and then left the house for more than 2 weeks. As soon as we returned, I decided to investigate this AC thing further, came to these forums, asked a couple of questions… Next thing I know, our 3 ton unit, with a repaired condenser fan motor stopped cooling too. :wall: The unit is spinning, the hot air is coming from it, but the temperature inside of the house is not dropping in the zone it is responsible for. The only abnormality I noticed, comparing to our 4 ton working unit is that the condensation line outside is bone dry – not a single drop is coming from that PVP pipe (while water runs non-stop from a line connected to our 4 ton unit). I noticed it as soon as the fan’s motor was replaced, but it was not a concern for me as the AC was working normally.
Why is it leakng? corrosion? poor brazing in the first place? was the valve installed at the factory or at the time of installation? How fast does it leak down? You know you are not required to repair the leak. Did he quote his refrigerant price?
Our HAVC technician explained that he tried to tighten the connection where he found the leak, but it looked like somebody tightened it too much & threads were damaged. He never told how fast R-22 would leak out if he refilled it without repairing the leak. He just warned us that it may leak very soon, so we would be spending a lot of money on refilling it with R-22 all the time. It sounded like he didn’t know himself how long R-22 will stay in the system. Are there any tests he could’ve performed to find that out? He charges $37 for refrigerant + $150 p/h labor charge. Also, he couldn’t say how many pounds we would need, he was giving a range from 6 to 10.
I google(ed) refrigerant leak and saw many posts where some people were insisting that it has to be repaired before refilling w R-22, while others were arguing that it is a requirements for commercial units only, so I wasn't sure what was the right thing to do

Supposing you had a bad TXV? What would he do, sell you a new coil instead of replacing the valve?

Yes, his quote included $724 coil. I would assume he wanted to sell a new coil.
I am attaching an old photo, taken by me at the time he partially opened the furnace, but you can’t see any details there. I wanted to take a new photo yesterday, took a camera with me and AF 100 HVAC foil tape to seal the ducts, but then I noticed that our AC guy closed the unit (2 last pics). After I was done with sealing the ducts, the only thing on my mind was an air conditioned room. I will take a screwdriver and make a couple of good photos later on.
Now, with 3 ton unit not cooling, I don’t know what to do. Should I call the same company again because they replaced a fan’s motor on that unit or I may as well call a different company because the tune-up service was not performed on that unit, thus they would charge me again a service call fee for finding out what is wrong now. Also, I think our technician left a little bit unhappy because
a) I didn’t agree to our 3d unit quoted repairs
b) I talked to the manager of the company when he 1st told me that he would charge $150 per hour for finding a leak and it could take up to 4+ hours… besides, he couldn’t guarantee that he would even find it. I understood the concept of looking for a leak, which could’ve been anywhere, but it seemed like a huge amount of money wasted for just finding a leak, so before agreeing to that, the AC guy let me talk to the manager who offered me a solution of limiting his time to 1 hour. We agreed that if the technician couldn’t find it within an hour, we would call it quits.
Before I didn’t even know that Ac unit consisted of 2 parts, now I’m sealing the ducts and I don’t know what is next :D

Thank you very much again for your help.
Happy 4th of July!

http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/581354791_DsNkj-M.jpg
bigger photo is here (http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/581354791_DsNkj-X3.jpg)
http://azilove.smugmug.com/gallery/4585276_WUhMv#581354791_DsNkj

http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/581803070_oLCT4-S.jpg

http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/581802860_4JJwj-S.jpg

Wow

I'll address the leak first. If I understand correctly he's saying that the leak is where the tubing THREADS onto the TXV? The fitting I can see in the picture? The leak is there or on the other side of the TXV? Is there any oil on the fitting? Assuming you're talking about the fitting we can see, he wants to replace the entire coil because of that? Overtightened? baloney. I don't see any evidence of any thread sealer on it. If I were there I would even go so far as to use epoxy on the threads before I would change out an expensive coil. Any nitwit who can't fix a leak on a threaded fitting needs to repeat after me "would you like fries with that?". I do see one spot on the coil I don't like. On the botton V right about where the vent pipe turns up, theres a small tube with what looks like corrosion but I'm not sure. It has a rust stain dribbling down from it. You are not required by law to fix the leak. You can if you chose to keep adding refrigerant. Leaks that are requied to be repaired pertain to larger commercial units and then they have to be losing 35% of their charge annually before the requirement kicks in. 6 to 10 pounds would have been my guesstimate. On smaller leaks it is hard to guage how fast the refrigerant would leak down.


The 3 ton unit- it sounds like you're saying that the fan outside is running. Can you hear the compressor running? Feel the 2 pipes at the outdoor unit for temperature and post that.


https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/2675723BB7F1421C882571870000D819/$File/565-EN.pdf

About 20 years ago I saw this product demonstrated. The sales guy had a jig made of 1/2" threaded pipes. On one of the fittings he had sawn all the way thru the threads on the male side. He put the fitting together with this stuff, then pressurized the jig to 300 psi with a CO2 cartridge like those used in BB guns. No leaks. I used that stuff for many years afterwards and never once had a leak.

Thank you very much for your reply :).

If I understand correctly he's saying that the leak is where the tubing THREADS onto the TXV? The fitting I can see in the picture? The leak is there or on the other side of the TXV? Is there any oil on the fitting?

The exact words from the proposed invoice our AC guy left for us:
Unit low on charge. Leaking at TXV connection to evap coil..
He didn’t specify on which side.
I checked the fittings and I didn’t feel any oil.
I found the sealant you were talking about online. I’m not sure if I can get it locally, but I definitely can order it online --> Loctite - 565 PST Thread Sealant Controlled Strength, 50 ml. tube $12.99

I took new sets of high resolution photos.
#1 - original size is here (http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/583606193_HJ6qD-O.jpg)

http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/583606193_HJ6qD-M.jpg
#2 - original image is here (http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/583607450_KsEnW-O.jpg)
http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/583607450_KsEnW-M.jpg
+ rust near V - large size (http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/583593722_N4XTF-X2.jpg):
http://azilove.smugmug.com/photos/583593722_N4XTF-M.jpg

The 3 ton unit- it sounds like you're saying that the fan outside is running. Can you hear the compressor running? Feel the 2 pipes at the outdoor unit for temperature and post that.

I can hear the compressor running, I checked the coolant line under insulation & it is cold. I don’t know how cold it can get in Arizona, with outside temperatures of 105-110, but I can keep my hand on the line without any problems. Is it supposed to be freezing cold? The second line (the thin metal one, not covered with insulation) is hot. I also checked the working 4 ton unit just to compare & its coolant line is a little bit colder. Also, it is located on the shady side of the house, while 3 ton is under direct sunlight.

Should i be conserned that the water from 3 ton air conditioner's condensation pipe is not dripping at all?

3 ton unit is set to 76, but our thermostat shows 79 and it feels like 79. Two days ago it couldn’t drop it below 82. Is it possible that 3 ton unit just can’t cool fast enough when we have extreme temperatures outside & when our 5 ton unit is off? The cool air from the 1st floor escapes to the 2d = 3 ton unit can’t drop the temperature below 79. Of course, the refrigerant level needs to be checked as this unit was repaired, but no tune-up performed. It may also be low on R-22…

Ah- what is your current outdoor humidity? You might not see much water coming out of the drain for the 3 ton because the RH might be low and the unit is doing it's job plus some of the 5 ton unit's work as well. The smaller tube on the 3 ton- is it hot or HOT? You might try washing out the outdoor coils on the 3 ton unit.

The 5 ton- that's my bad, I was thinking the inlet fitting was leaking, today's pictures are much better. I don't get what the guy is saying. In one breath he says something was overtightened and then in another breath he says he could try to solder it. ??? "Leaking at TXV connection to evaporator coil" is a little vague. If this leak is all he says it is, you should feel some oil where the refrigerant was leaking out. If you think there is pressure left in the system, make up a soapy solution [like with dish detergent] and paint the fittings and all of the coil tubing to see if you can pinpoint the leak. [be sure to pay yourself $150 an hour- he he] No way would I spend anything until the leak is pinpointed. You might even call the company and ask exactly where did he find the leak.

Nu-Calgon: Products: Gas Leak Detectors (http://www.nucalgon.com/products/products_gasleak_detectors.htm)

Ah- what is your current outdoor humidity? You might not see much water coming out of the drain for the 3 ton because the RH might be low and the unit is doing it's job plus some of the 5 ton unit's work as well. The smaller tube on the 3 ton- is it hot or HOT? You might try washing out the outdoor coils on the 3 ton unit.

The 5 ton- that's my bad, I was thinking the inlet fitting was leaking, today's pictures are much better. I don't get what the guy is saying. In one breath he says something was overtightened and then in another breath he says he could try to solder it. ??? "Leaking at TXV connection to evaporator coil" is a little vague. If this leak is all he says it is, you should feel some oil where the refrigerant was leaking out. If you think there is pressure left in the system, make up a soapy solution [like with dish detergent] and paint the fittings and all of the coil tubing to see if you can pinpoint the leak. [be sure to pay yourself $150 an hour- he he] No way would I spend anything until the leak is pinpointed. You might even call the company and ask exactly where did he find the leak.

Nu-Calgon: Products: Gas Leak Detectors (http://www.nucalgon.com/products/products_gasleak_detectors.htm)

I apologize I disappeared, but I decided to do something about our broken 5 ton unit instead of bugging you here all the time :)

Thank you for your advice. I contacted the company as you told and their supervisor was nice enough to call the technician who gave us that quote to confirm his diagnoses. The technician insisted that he found a leak at TXV, but he couldn’t remember which side. A supervisor sounded very puzzled why our AC guy would offer us to change the whole coil when he found a leak at TXV... There was a long pause in our conversation where each party realized that there is something fishy about his quote. I decided not to deal with this company anymore, said "thank you" and hung up the phone. I think that our AC guy didn't really look for a leak; he was pretty sure that I would agree to his ridiculously high quote and replace an evaporator coil (I don’t know what really happened, of course… I can only speculate at this point)

I called several AC companies and after having received some ridiculous quotes including "$85 for the first pound of R-22 and then the price goes down to $56 for the 2d, 54 for the 3d, etc" :rolleyes:, I finally found somebody reasonable. They quoted $27 per R-22, I didn’t hear any $150 per hour demands, and they priced everything per job done. The owner of the company came today and checked 2 units. He openly told that there is no leak at TXV (he also used a soap solution + I noticed his CPS CC220), but there is a leak. He believes it’s in an evaporator coil. He asked me what I wanted to do: a) do nothing for now b) fill up w R-22 and see how fast we will loose it c) replace our EV coil, (which appeared to be still under the warranty!). I decided to go with the last solution, because in a couple of months the warranty will expire and I may end up paying extra $700 at the end anyway. Also, I was a little bit exhausted with this AC saga + his price seemed very reasonable.

He added a little bit of R-22 to our 3 ton unit, but he said that it looked like it was lost during the initial installation – the amount he added was small. He will follow up on 3 ton unit after he fixes our 5 ton. He seems like a really nice guy, I think I will stick with him (and hope for the best :D).

Thank you very much again; I really appreciate your help :thumbup: Have a great weekend!