Insulation, Radiant and Vapor Barriers - Will watertite paint stop humidity through basement walls?

Elderely tenant in nice duplex that has solid poured basement walls, wants to know how to stop humidity. He is tired of having to run the dehumidifier. I told him I would inquire here on his behalf.

No visible moisure problems.

He claims humidity gauge reads about 70% without dehumidifier and 50% with it. I asked to see it, but he would not let me.

I asked him if he ever thought about trying a different humidty gauge, as I told him that I have seen them be way off from each other - even when buying new ones in the store, when you rifle through the whole works on display.

He said he can feel the dampness - so he really doesn't need a different gauge to go by, he said.

At first he wanted to foamboard the walls and then panel. (He already has a walled off office down there, paneled.) At his expense, mind you. But I mentioned about some kind of sealer. So he ran out to the home center and they told him about Zinsser Watertite.

But I wonder if that will stop humidity.

And then I got thinking that the walls are only part of it. What about the floor? Would putting that epoxy on the floor (like they do in warehouses and garages) help?

Also, years ago, my parents block basement walls got painted with that thick white paint stuff that is to stop water infiltration. But it has all those brush marks. On a smooth beautiful solid-poured basement walls, you'd think something like that would look pretty bad. Or could it be rolled?

Do any of you have any working experience with that stuff, or have any other liquid-applications or other solutions to reduce the humidity.

Note that the house has no gutters, but no actual moisture shows up on the walls or floor. The soil is sandy around the foundation I'd believe.

Nope will not help! All basements in green grass state could benefit from a dehumidifier.

A waterproofing paint might help a tad but mainly it's to help stop water flow thru the masonary walls. I would recomend it as a good precaution prior to covering up any walls.

While I can't say for sure [not knowing what product was used] but generally most any coating [thick or thin] can be applied where it will look nice. Most waterproof coatings can be rolled but brush is often recomended, mainly because it gets you up close and personal to the wall which often means more attention to getting good coverage, filling all pores and getting the intended results. Brush or roll, a lot depends on the skill of the applicator as to how the finished product will look.

http://forum.doityourself.com/insulation-radiant-vapor-barriers/368052-poured-basement-condesation-insulation-plastic-barriers.html

I replied once to a thread concerning moisture with basements in the above thread. It explains how moisture flows throughout the structure. In your friends case the simplest thing to do is ventilate the basement. Provided the outside humidity is lower than the basement humidity. The humidifier should drain into a sink. Leaving it in a pan or drain into a sump pit or floor drain more than likely is merely recycling the humidity. Some of the things we do in our homes can produce a lot of humidity. The first thing to check is the clothes dryer hose. Make sure that it is exhausting to the outside properly and is sealed. Bathroom and kitchen exhausts are also good to check. Look for condensation on the cold water pipes in the basement, not the hot water pipes. and while you are there look at the rest of the plumbing pipes too.

......the simplest thing to do is ventilate the basement. Like just open the basement windows? I'd have to ask him about this - if this at all interests him, or if he has reasons against that. He's kind of a fussy old guy who likes things just right.

The humidifier should drain into a sink. Leaving it in a pan or drain into a sump pit or floor drain more than likely is merely recycling the humidity.

What's wrong if it goes down a drain (which it does)? That should carry it out of the house. That is what drains are for.

Some of the things we do in our homes can produce a lot of humidity. The first thing to check is the clothes dryer hose. Make sure that it is exhausting to the outside properly and is sealed.

Laundry is upstairs and to my knowledge, vents. The upstairs has never struck me as being humid, when I have been in their house.

Look for condensation on the cold water pipes in the basement, not the hot water pipes. and while you are there look at the rest of the plumbing pipes too.

Now THAT is an idea I forgot about. You are right. If it is truly humid down there, you'd be having sweaty pipes. Good thinking!

Nope will not help! All basements in green grass state could benefit from a dehumidifier.

It is very lush here, and they have lawn sprinklers and the yard looks like it win a Scott's lawn contest. It is sort of God's country around here.

I happend to look at Watertite at home center today while there shopping. Yes, it seals out water in the demo concrete block filled with water and protects up to 10 psi! But like I said, the walls are not even damp, so I do not know if that paint would stop humidity or not. I may end up calling the company about this question to see what they say about this.

Most waterproof coatings can be rolled but brush is often recomended, mainly because it gets you up close and personal to the wall which often means more attention to getting good coverage, filling all pores and getting the intended results. Brush or roll, a lot depends on the skill of the applicator as to how the finished product will look.

They show pic label with roller being used. And they say it leaves a smooth finsih. But by looking at the roller cover they show, it looks like it must be like some kind of gucky stuff the way it causes the roller cover to look like. They recommend 2 coats to qualify for their guarantee.

The problem is not with water coming through the walls. It is with the cool walls that allow condesation.

Also the high humidity should be removed and ventilation should be improved. A humidifier will help, but does not really ventilate.

Opening windows will not help because the warmer air outside will carry more moisture. 80% humidity outside air has more moisture in it than the cooler basement air, so the inside humidity can go up.

If he has a central air conditioner, a basement supply AND return can do wonders to freshen a basement. Since the walls are cool, there is not much additional load and return air is cooler than the upstairs return air. The circulation will even everything out.

Dick

Gpod point about the a/c. Never thought of that.

The walls are not condensing though - so no problem there. All appears dry, you see. It is just that the humidifier runs and runs and I don't think he likes to have to keep paying for that.

"Note that the house has no gutters, but no actual moisture shows up on the walls or floor. The soil is sandy around the foundation I'd believe."

1.Where is the location?

2.Pull a recept. and look for insulation and where the vapor barrier is located.Close to exterior or interior?

3.Did you tape a plastic on the floor or walls? Are the floors covered or bare concrete?

4.Does the drain have a P-trap? Does it drain or just fill up and add to the problem?Did you watch water drain?

5.Is there an attic exhaust fan system? (To create a negative pressure difference?) Are the attic/ living space ceiling penetrations sealed? Are there enough soffit vents?

6.Why are there no gutters, does it never rain there? Is the soil sandy at the basement footing?

Be safe, G

"Note that the house has no gutters, but no actual moisture shows up on the walls or floor. The soil is sandy around the foundation I'd believe."

1.Where is the location?

2.Pull a recept. and look for insulation and where the vapor barrier is located.Close to exterior or interior?

3.Did you tape a plastic on the floor or walls? Are the floors covered or bare concrete?

4.Does the drain have a P-trap? Does it drain or just fill up and add to the problem?Did you watch water drain?

5.Is there an attic exhaust fan system? (To create a negative pressure difference?) Are the attic/ living space ceiling penetrations sealed? Are there enough soffit vents?

6.Why are there no gutters, does it never rain there? Is the soil sandy at the basement footing?

Be safe, G

1. Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Lush capital of the world. (Could be, if there were such a designation. We are a Tree City USA town though.) You should see how beautiful some of the lawns look.

2. Vapor barrier? This is for poured basement walls, not framed down there (but for one corner office room).

3. Excellent idea. I can tell him to try that.

4. I'd imagine so. This was not some sort of DIY home.

5. Modern construction. Yes on soffit and roof venting. No attic exhaust fan.

6. Landlord hates gutters. Maintenanace issue. Ice damming, etc. There is a plasticed rockbed out from the foundation about 3 feet. He will put them up though if a problem is posed by not having them. There has never been any moisture problems evident on the walls or floors, even in rainstorms that are like 1 inch an hour. We are only going by tenant saying basement is humid and he uses dehumidifier. I personally have never thought of there being an issue in that basement. Many condo-like places in that neighborhood with same poured wall basements and all are dry.

This guy is real picky, and maybe picks up on things that not everyone else would.

When you look around on a hot humid summers day.... you do not see things outside covered in condensation!

Condensation only happens when warm wet air meets a cold surface, or a cold front in the sky, ie; that cold water pipe.

It is perfectly possible for a room/basement/yard to be humid without any sign.

As long as the walls, ceiling, floor, contents of the room are all warm in relation to the temperature of the air holding the moisture - then there is no sign of humidity and nothing happens.

The man is right, the basement is humid, he can run all the dehumidifiers, collect all the water vapour he is willing to pay for - and still the sun will shine on the equator, still thousands of tons of water will lift in the air and move to Eau Claire.

Perry,

Old tenant got 'short' with me today, over the phone, even though when I called him on that, he said he wasn't. But he was. I told him that a/c experts claim running the a/c knocks out the humidity. He got mad at me for insulting his intelligence. He said that is bs. He said that when he runs the a/c, the basemsnt humidity is 55% and when it is not running it is 48%. He also got mad that I suggested the humidity may not be as bad as he thinks. He told me he lived in a block wall house only blocks away from where he is now, that had way less humidity.

I have not been in HIS basement, lately, but in others in the area, I get temps of 62-66 degrees. Not sure what dew point would be to create condensation on cold water pipes to hint at higher humidity.

What I will do tomorrow, if I remember, is go into some basements and take both a temp and humidity reading. Then ask him politely if I can check his.

He said his next door duplex neighbor painted HIS basement walls and he does not have near the humidity. How he knows, I'm not sure. He did agree though that he will find out from his next door neighbor if they can exchange the same temp./humidity gauge, to see if his painted walls basement really is less humid or not.

I also plan to call Zinsser, for their opinion.

I have four humidity gauges two outside in different places and two indoors ditto.
All are certified correct within + or - one percent.
Place together on a table and they all have different readings that differ by more than 2% overall.
I have another that is 10% higher than the other four.
Only God know which one is right, if any!
So, on a practical basis I trust the most expensive.
I think the actual figure is irrelevant in the long run - they are really just a useful indicator.

Why not calabrate them? You may not beable to change them but you will know how far they are off.

To the last two posts: And that is why sharing the same gauge between a couple residences, regardless of the actual reading, will be the best indicator to go by, if one residence is higher humidity than another, when basement temps say are very close in temp. (I've been finding them at about 62-65 degrees around here, right now.)

at 62 you will be hard pressed to take any off the shelf dehumidifier and remove lots of humidity with it. It is to cold for a cheap dehumidifier to do a lot of good. At that temp a 60 pint unit might only be able to remove 30 pints per day. As long as you keep the RH under 55% odors should go away and mold will not grow. Temp will have nothing to do with mold growth.

at 62 you will be hard pressed to take any off the shelf dehumidifier and remove lots of humidity with it. It is to cold for a cheap dehumidifier to do a lot of good. At that temp a 60 pint unit might only be able to remove 30 pints per day. As long as you keep the RH under 55% odors should go away and mold will not grow. Temp will have nothing to do with mold growth.
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I am greatful for your information but, am not sure I understand. When you write. "At 62" Is this temperature or relative humidity? And why would a cheap dehumidifier be less able to collect humidity from the (air?) than an expensive one? And "if" the air is (wet?) (dry?) why would one collect more than the other? My garage is often @ 99% RH yet there is no mould. Why is that?

at 62 you will be hard pressed to take any off the shelf dehumidifier and remove lots of humidity with it. It is to cold for a cheap dehumidifier to do a lot of good. At that temp a 60 pint unit might only be able to remove 30 pints per day. As long as you keep the RH under 55% odors should go away and mold will not grow. Temp will have nothing to do with mold growth.

I'm not sure how much is being created since it is going down a floor drain. Mold? Odors? There is none of that. The basement looks like you could eat off the walls and floor. And frankly, I do not know what the guys problem is. That is why I want to check other basements. A basement is a basement. It's like the guy thinks it should be just like the upstairs.

Perhaps the fact the basement is cool influences this guys thinking about the humidity. I was down in a nearby similar basement yesterday and never gave it a thought that I was walking into a tropical rainforest or something. These old people who sit around have nothing better to do than find something wrong.

I called up Rustoleum/Zinsser yesterday and talked to a tech, and he said that their Watertite will indeed stop humidity infiltration if the cause is from outside the basement walls. I told him that if that is the case, that it will serve as a humidity barrier and not just a moisture barrier, that they should put that on their label since many people have issues with 'humidity'. He said he will pass that advice along.