Furniture, Wood and Cabinetry Finishing - HELP me support my new Granite Countertop!!!!!

Hello all,
Well the granite is in the shop being cut and I still dont know how to support the overhang in my kitchen. The overhang is 14.5" behind the cabinets and 8 on the side. Anything over 10" needs support right?

My friends parents used a 4" wide 1/4" piece of steel and attached it to a half wall they built behind their cabinets to supports their overhang. I don’t want to build a half wall since i would lose space under there and my knees would hit.

I have included some pictures to better explain

How would you support the overhang?

1 way is to use the steel method and lay a 36" long piece of steel over the cabinet and have it extend 12 more inches to pick up the 14.5" overhang. I would screw the metal brackets into the cabinets so the metal could slide or tilt like a teeter-tauter (sp). This should work right?

Another way would be to get that same steel and have someone bend it to a 90 degree angle and secure it to the back of the cabinets inside, then i can lay my veneer piece on the back of the cabinets and it would be finished.

I guess another way is to get a 3/8" sheet of plywood and attach it to the back of the cabinets. Then go and buy some kind of bracket that would be screwed into the plywood and support the overhang. With this way someone could bump their knees into it. With the steel way (option 1) no one would hit their knees at all.

What do you think?
Here's the pics
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/rugsr/0616092354-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/rugsr/0616092354-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/rugsr/0616092354-3.jpg

anyone.....................:(

I have seen this done differnet ways...easy to hard

easy #1 double layer of 3/4" ply just short of your built up edge, can be edge banded in matching hardwood if your built up edge is small.

easy 2 Decorative Corbels installed on over hang sides

harder single layer of ply with steel plates inset on top.

I have seen this done differnet ways...easy to hard

easy #1 double layer of 3/4" ply just short of your built up edge, can be edge banded in matching hardwood if your built up edge is small.

easy 2 Decorative Corbels installed on over hang sides

harder single layer of ply with steel plates inset on top.

I somewhat understand your response.

Your saying
1)
2 sheets of 3/4" ply on the back of the cabinets? Then on the end near the outlet you will see 1.5" of ply wood
or
2 sheets of 3/4" ply ontop the cabinets and the Granite ontop of that? Then I just raised my countertop 1.5"

2) install the Corbels on the backs of the cabinets? only problem is the back of the cabinets is very flimsly

3)plywood and steel ontop of cabinets? still not my countertop is about 1" higher then it should be

First, make sure the cabinets are dead nuts level. If they're not, it's difficult put the seams together right without using a bunch of shims. Next, remember that granite is rigid and the least little deflection will crack it, so make sure your supports are as rigid as possible. I would use 1/2" x 2" cold rolled steel spaced no more than 24" on center, and cantilever it as shown in your first drawing, as opposed to bending it 90 degrees. Make a wood cleat for support at the front of the cabinet and let it in level at the back. CRS is much harder & stiffer than hot rolled. Just silicone it in place since it can't really go anywhere once the granite is in place. Be sure to grind the corners of the steel a little so they're not sharp. Then prime & paint it before the granite is installed. Good luck

in number 1 your second guess...two layers of ply on top of each other...screwed and glued. Yes it will raise the counter 1 1/2" but when I design kitchens with overhangs I calculate this up front...either working with custom height cabinets (not an option for you, and problematic with Dish washer etc.) but can be worked arround with custom toe kicks if the client is short...most people dont mind a slightly taller cab..only real issue is the range which can be raised with custom base.

the corbels could become flutted columns or such.

when the steel is "let in" a routed chanel is cut into the ply so as not to increae the thickness as much

one of the biggest oversights people have is not looking at the "big picture"...they focus too much on small details and not on how to incorporate everything into a detailed "package"

did you work with a designer On this ? that knows the limitations of the materials?

First, make sure the cabinets are dead nuts level. If they're not, it's difficult put the seams together right without using a bunch of shims. Next, remember that granite is rigid and the least little deflection will crack it, so make sure your supports are as rigid as possible. I would use 1/2" x 2" cold rolled steel spaced no more than 24" on center, and cantilever it as shown in your first drawing, as opposed to bending it 90 degrees. Make a wood cleat for support at the front of the cabinet and let it in level at the back. CRS is much harder & stiffer than hot rolled. Just silicone it in place since it can't really go anywhere once the granite is in place. Be sure to grind the corners of the steel a little so they're not sharp. Then prime & paint it before the granite is installed. Good luck

my cabinets were pretty level, the guy that came out was in shock at how level i got them myself but said they werent perfect and since im getting granite i would need them to be dead nuts level. so for $200 a guy came in and leveld the cabinets...dead nuts. he did a sweet job.
If i put the steel on them, i will have to cut into his full length shims(maybe some of the cabinet too) and place the steel in there. MAKING SURE Top Of Steel is level with Top Of Shim. I think 1/2" might be too thick and I would be cutting intot he cabinet too much. What if I go with 3/8"T x 3"W x 36"L CRS?

in number 1 your second guess...two layers of ply on top of each other...screwed and glued. Yes it will raise the counter 1 1/2" but when I design kitchens with overhangs I calculate this up front...either working with custom height cabinets (not an option for you, and problematic with Dish washer etc.) but can be worked arround with custom toe kicks if the client is short...most people dont mind a slightly taller cab..only real issue is the range which can be raised with custom base.

the corbels could become flutted columns or such.

when the steel is "let in" a routed chanel is cut into the ply so as not to increae the thickness as much

one of the biggest oversights people have is not looking at the "big picture"...they focus too much on small details and not on how to incorporate everything into a detailed "package"

did you work with a designer On this ? that knows the limitations of the materials?

I came up with the design and homedepot put in on PC then ordered the cabinets.

Just got off the phone with the installers and they said the installation date is July 8th. I then talked to them about supporting it using the pieces of steel which will be screwedinto the cabinets and extend to the overhang, supporting the granite. She told me that I cant have ANY supports there during the time of the installation, its against their policy and they will leave if its in their way. I told her if wont be in your way, just lay the granite down ontop the cabinets like your going to do anyways and the steel there will act as a support. We "talked" back and forth and i told her she must not understand me and i will be emailing her a picture of what im talking about.

Is this normal for an installer to say this?

BTW, I havent decided if I want to use 3/8" steel or 1/2"
1/2" is bigger of course and bigger is better right. but i dont want to cut down into the cabinets too much. like 1/8" larger will do much? Also I can go 2"-4" wide. the wider the better too right?

I don't understand the installer's answer. I would always want the supports there first. This is too wide an overhang to go unsupported while you try to install the supports after the granite is installed. Make sure they understand they are responsible if anything breaks, as granite is prone to do. Around here granite installers want any overhang wider than 4" to be supported.
As for the thickness of the steel: The strength increases directly with the width of the support, but increases with the square of the depth. So a 1/4" x 4" piece of steel is twice as stiff as a 1/4" x 2". But a 1/2" x 2" piece is 4 times as stiff as a 1/4" x 2". To me, the more rigid the support the better.
Good luck

Thanks CNTRTOP.
Yea I was thinking about that, how unsafe it is to leave that un supported and try to support it later. It would be 14.5" overhang by 98" so thats what. Almost 10sqft unsupported and just hanging there while im underneath it trying to install brackets. If that were to crack and break off while I was under there i Think Id be pretty hurt. I mean granite weighs what, about 20lbs per sqft. So were talking 200 lbs on top my head...thatd would be bad

How would you support the overhang?

1 way is to use the steel method and lay a 36" long piece of steel over the cabinet and have it extend 12 more inches to pick up the 14.5" overhang. I would screw the metal brackets into the cabinets so the metal could slide or tilt like a teeter-tauter (sp). This should work right?

Our island overhang (12") doesn't have 2 sides like yours, but this is similar to the method I used. The pieces I used are 2" wide by 3/8" thick. IIRC, that thickness was the thinnest that didn't flex at all when I was looking at the metal supply yard.

We also have frameless cabinets, and that made installing the steel a bit easier, too. I just routed out grooves into the top of the cabinets and laid in the steel in a bed of PL adhesive.

For your situation, I think the same thing would work. I don't think that the steel has to be screwed into the cabinets. I would make support blocks for each piece of steel and attach them to the cabinets with screws/glue. One block at the front wall and one at the back, by your overhang. Cut/Route a notch for the steel in each block and in the back wall of the cabinet so that top of the steel sits flush with the tops of the cabs.

If you lay in the steel with adhesive (again, I like the PL Premium), and let it dry before they put in the granite, I think you'll be OK. If they knock it really good while placing the slab, it might come loose, but then it's their problem. Once they've put the slab on top, with caulk probably between the steel and the slab (maybe just around the edges), it isn't going anywhere.

For the blocks, I'd probably use oak, 3/4" thick and doesn't have to be a lot bigger than the width of your steel. And for the steel, I sanded, acetone wipedown, then primed/painted with Rustoleum. Flat grey will probably blend well w/ the unfinished side of the granite.

Good luck.