Flooring Tile - dkruger's new kitchen, dining tile project - just starting

Sub Floor Info – Plywood with thickness of 1"
Layers - ? - not sure, I will have to do some more checking in that area. I measured the thickness of the subfloor using a hole that is cut in the subfloor for some plumbing so I am not sure how the subfloor 1" thickness is accomplished.

Joist size is 2x8 (actual 1.5” by 7.5”) The house was built in 1969 and the joists are in good condition.

Two span areas –
Area 1 - dining and kitchen has unsupported span of 10’, spacing between 16”

Area 2 – entry way near exterior door and closet / hall to kitchen
- unsupported span of 14’, joists over this area are doubled, spacing between is 16”.

Current floor coverings – Span area 2 is completely covered by vinyl. The area borders a carpeted area in living room. Span Area 1 is mixed – one portion is vinyl, other portion is carpet.

My plan is to remove the vinyl and carpeted span 1 and span 2areas and replace with ceramic tiles. I am running into a couple issues that I need help figuring out how to solve:

1. An exterior door that currently swings over vinyl does not have sufficient clearance to install an underlayment, in floor electric heat element and tiles. I think that I need to move the door up in its rough opening – the door is steel, so I cannot simply cut/sand off the bottom of the door to achieve clearance. Other ideas instead of removing the door and frame and repositioning in the rough opening?
2. Span Area 2 listed above meets area 1 at a doorway into the kitchen. There is a piece of trim installed between the two floor surfaces because the floor surfaces are not even. Area 2 subfloor is higher than area 1 by ~ 0.5”. I don’t understand why the floor in one area is higher than the other (perhaps a luan is installed in area 2 but not in area 1???) I think I need to make a test cut in the corner of my closet to figure out what is under the vinyl in area 2. Perhaps if the higher area has an extra layer of luan I will remove it. If not, I will probably bring the low area up to match unless I should be concerned with some other side effect of the matching.
3. I have squeaky areas throughout my floor and I want to make sure that that will not cause problems when I install the tile. I am concerned that the flexing will ruin the grout or cause the tile to crack. When I worked with a builder, we always used an adhesive to fasten the subfloor plywood to the joists along with the nails to prevent squeaky floors. I am afraid that the builder that put my house together did not use adhesive to fasten the subfloor to the joists. Can I do something to make a more solid subfloor structure without tearing up the existing subfloor and re-fastening the plywood to the joists with adhesive? Can I run a bunch of new screws into the floor and use a nail set to sink the existing nails before fastening the underlayment over the existing subfloor?
4. What size underlayment should I use? I see that the yard carries at least 1/4" thickness underlayment and 1/2" underlayment. If I really do have 1" of subfloor, then 1/4" underlayment should be sufficient, right?

Thanks for the help and I look forward to working through this project over the next few weeks!

Some update sub floor info:

Span Area #1 - The floor is lower here - I found that there is a single layer of plywood subfloor, 5/8" thick. That is covered by 1/4" layer of thinner plywood that is under both the vinyl in this area and the carpet. The total thickness of the existing floor in this area is 7/8" near the 1" I thought I had last night.

Span area #2 - The floor here is higher than the other span area by ~ 1/2". Now I know why - the subfloor in span area #2 is made up of two layers of 5/8" plywood (making total thickness 1 and 1/8" total for the ply thickness plus ~ 1/4" of another underlayment under the vinyl in span area #2. Total thickness under vinyl is then 1 and 1/2" - so know I can account for the difference between the floors.

Plan of attack is to pull up the vinyl, carpet in both span areas, leaving the underlayment in span area #2, covering the underlayment in span area #1 with a new layer of 5/8" plywood, tongue and groove, with adhesive between underlayment and new layer of subfloor. Total thickness in both span areas will then be 1 and 1/2" before concrete board underlayment is installed.

Other options would be to rip up the underlayments in both, put 5/8" layer in span area 1 matching them both before concrete board, but that will require more work, so I am going the easy route that I described above unless someone has a compelling reason to steer me to the more work option (good luck).

Ok - back to work prepping the floor for my 1/4" concrete board. I have selected 1/4" - again, unless someone has a compelling reason to use 1/2".

Anyone have any insight to the question about the squeaky floor fixes? I'm looking for something clever here - I think screws will help fix it, right?

Don

Hey Don!

Let me see if I can tackle your problems. If I forget something, just let me know.

Span Area #1 - The floor is lower here - I found that there is a single layer of plywood subfloor, 5/8" thick. That is covered by 1/4" layer of thinner plywood that is under both the vinyl in this area and the carpet. The total thickness of the existing floor in this area is 7/8" near the 1" I thought I had last night.


You will want to remove any 1/4" underlayment, in both areas. 1/4" anything does not belong in a tile installation. You existing layer of 5/8" ply is alright for ceramic.


Span area #2 - The floor here is higher than the other span area by ~ 1/2". Now I know why - the subfloor in span area #2 is made up of two layers of 5/8" plywood (making total thickness 1 and 1/8" total for the ply thickness plus ~ 1/4" of another underlayment under the vinyl in span area #2. Total thickness under vinyl is then 1 and 1/2" - so know I can account for the difference between the floors.

Pull up the underlayment.

Ok - back to work prepping the floor for my 1/4" concrete board. I have selected 1/4" - again, unless someone has a compelling reason to use 1/2".

1/4" is fine for floors. Cement board does not offer any structural strength. Well, at least in the calculation anyways.

Anyone have any insight to the question about the squeaky floor fixes? I'm looking for something clever here - I think screws will help fix it, right?


After removing the 1/4" underlayment, screw down the existing ply into the floor joists more. This "should" minimize the squeaks.

Mark -

Thanks for the responses. My question is about the total thickness now - you say pull up the 1/4 underlayment in both areas. If I do that in the thinner area - my thickness will decrease to 5/8" without the ceramic backerboard. When I add back the backerboard, 1/4", then I will only be back to 7/8" under my ceramic. I thought that I was supposed to have 1 and 1/4" total including the ceramic backer board.

If that is correct, I will still need to add the additional layer of 5/8" subfloor plywood - I will have to do that anyway since the other span area already has 5/8" x 2, total of 1 and 1/4" before the ceramic backer board.

Am I correct saying that I need at minimum 1 and 1/4" sub before ceramic, including the ceramic backer?

Thanks,

Don

Don,

You would need 1 1/4" of plywood if you were installing a natural stone tile, like granite, slate, marble, etc.

With ceramic or porcelain, you only need 5/8". More is better of course, but 5/8" is the minimum standard.

Cement board is a bonding material for the tile, and not for structural integrity of your subfloor, so you wouldn't even count that in your total height.

Mark - Ok, great - thanks for that clarification. I did pull up the underlayment in the span area 2. Boy, is that a good feeling to be done with pulling up that area, now I'm ready to put the cement board down.

I am going to pull up the 1/4" underlayment in span area 1 and install a 5/8" tongue and groove layer on top of the existing so that everything is matched at the same height and has a consistent subfloor structure. Your reason along with the advice of a famliy member builder was compelling enough for me to decide to go through with pulling nails and pulling up that layer of the floor.

Whe I am ready to install the cement board, is it safe for people to walk on the cement board until time allows for the tile to be installed? I am thinking that I will be able to put the cement board down next weekend throughout the area, leaving it exposed for the week and then doing the tile installation the following weekend.

Do you advise against people traffic (in my home, not a commercial location) on the cement board for up to a week before tile is installed?

I also see that at least one manufacturer recommends using an adhesive to attach the cement board to the subfloor. Is that necessary or can that step be skipped?

Thanks,

Don

Hi Don,

All cement board manufacturers, i.e. Hardiebacker, Wonderboard, etc that I know of, REQUIRE the board to be set in a bed of thinset. The reason for this: to fill any voids that might be under the board, not to adhere the board itself. The screws hold the board.

You can walk on the board right after installing. If you are going to leave it installed for a week prior to tiling, I would cover it with cardboard, tar paper, etc. The boards usually have silica in them, and you don't really want to get that in the air.

Be sure to tape the board seams as you tile.

Mark -

Thank you very much for the helpful information. All of this has made this project go much more smoothly and gives me more confidence in doing this all myself.

I am nearly complete installing the extra 5/8" thickness in span area 1. I expect that I will be able to finish the sub floor by Friday night, then follow with the cement board this weekend.

I am reading the installation instructions for the cement board and options exists for the adhesive or mortar. The options are: "Type I organic adhesive, latex portland cement mortar, or
dry-set mortar."

Is there one of these that will keep this layer's thickness to a minimum?

I am becoming very close to running out of room under my counter top for my dishwasher unit with all of these layers so I would like to minimize the extra thicknesses. A dry fit of the tile and the backer board under the dishwasher tells me that adding any more will cause problems with the dishwasher fit under the counter top.

I have already removed the adjustable feet from the dishwasher frame to allow extra room so there is nothing left on the dishwasher to allow for a thicker floor. A final route would be to shim the counter top upward to account for this added thickness.

Any advice that you can offer to help me minimize the laminating layers' thickness will be appreciated.

You also indicate that I should tape the concrete board seams as I tile - the manufacturer, USG, Fiberock Aqua-tough, indicates that the joints should be filled and taped, but does not explicitly state when they should be filled relative to when tile is set.

Why does one fill as you tile instead of filling gaps and allowing the gap fill to cure?

Does this change if I am planning to add a scratch coat of mortar when installing an in-floor heating system?

Should I fill the gaps between the cement board with the same material as the scratch coat?

Fiberock also recommends joint tape to be used in the gaps.

What is your recommendation considering that I will use the in floor electric heat?

I am reading that 1/8" gap between concrete board is recommended - is that right?

Thanks!

Don

Mark -

Thinking ahead here on the in floor heat - when I put down the scratch coat of mortar but do not yet have tiles installed...

Can that have foot traffic on the exposed mortar after some amount of cure time? I am sure again it would be best to cover with cardboard....

According to the mortar manufacturer, Mapei, Ultraflex 1, I can have regular traffic again after 72 hours (I think they assume with tiles installed).

If so, ok, otherwise, looks like either camping out at the in-laws or hotel until the tiles are installed.

Good thing my father in law likes me.....Beer 4U2

Don

I am becoming very close to running out of room under my counter top for my dishwasher unit with all of these layers so I would like to minimize the extra thicknesses. A dry fit of the tile and the backer board under the dishwasher tells me that adding any more will cause problems with the dishwasher fit under the counter top.

How close is close? I wouldn't go through the trouble of shimming an entire countertop to fit the dishwasher. How thick is the floor in this area?


Why does one fill as you tile instead of filling gaps and allowing the gap fill to cure?

Does it matter? It's gonna cure regardless if tile is on it or not. You can tape before you tile if you'de like, but you may run into the chance of a "high spot" after it cures, which makes getting your tile flat more difficult.

Does this change if I am planning to add a scratch coat of mortar when installing an in-floor heating system?

Follow the heating wires instructions. Usually it require the wire to be covered in a SLC (self leveling cement) or thinset.


Should I fill the gaps between the cement board with the same material as the scratch coat?

Fill the board gaps with thinset as you tile.

I am reading that 1/8" gap between concrete board is recommended - is that right?

Usually, yes.

Can that have foot traffic on the exposed mortar after some amount of cure time? I am sure again it would be best to cover with cardboard....
[/QUOTE]

I would definetly limit the foot traffic until you are ready to install tile.


According to the mortar manufacturer, Mapei, Ultraflex 1, I can have regular traffic again after 72 hours (I think they assume with tiles installed).

Yes, tiles installed. You can usually walk on set tiles 24 hrs after setting.

My tiles are 16x16. What is a good width for the spacing?
1/8th inch?

Also the tiles are an off white/light tan color. I am looking for recommendations on what color grout to use. I don't want it too light, because it may show dirt easier.

I'de say 3/16's, but it's totally up to you. Put a few tiles on the ground and play around with the spacing and see which you like best.

Grout is also up to you. They should have a color pallet brochure with the different colors. A mix of tans are available. Also remember, the grout probably won't be as dark as what the brochure says, so be prepared.

An update here...about three weeks ago, we put about 100 full tiles down and have been waiting since to borrow a tile saw...and a free weekend to cut tiles...so today is the day. We're going to finish all the trim tiles today. Next weekend (4th of July) we plan on grouting.

Thanks for the tips and insights, this forum has been very helpful.

A couple questions about cutting -

1. Should I cut the tiles face up or cut through from the backside?

2. When making a notch cut in the tile, how do you suggest making the cut that forms the back of the notch?

1. Face up

2. Depending on the size of the notch, I usually use a 4" angle grinder for this. Keep us updated on your progress!

Making good progress. Last Saturday, we cut just about another 100 tiles for the trim pieces. I am using 16" x 16" tiles for the project. I was thinking about that last weekend and though to myself about how many more cuts I would have been making on smaller tiles. I am glad we found such nice tiles at a great price at that size to help us cover a lot of area.

All the tiles were set on Sunday last weekend, with the exception of a closet area just inside my entry area. I finished setting those on Tuesday night this week.

Last night, we started grouting, anticipating my long awaited free day off work. Don't get me wrong, especially in these times, I much rather be working than in the position that about 9.5% of other people are in right now.

So, today we grout, targeting to grout the entire area today, finishing up in time to take in some fireworks tonight. These have been some long weekend days getting to this point.

We will probably go pick up grout sealant today when we are done grouting so that we have the sealant when the grout is done curing. Do you have any suggestion about how long to wait for the grout to cure before applying the sealant?

We have tile in two bathrooms in our house, I'll probably get enought sealant to re-seal those grout lines too. Any special consideration for old grout that should be re-sealed?

I can tell that over time, the extensive cleaning that we are doing in those bathrooms is making the grout slowly disappear ;).

We have been a long time planning and carrying out this project, it is good to see it coming to an end. Following the tile work today, we'll be working on trim around doors, baseboard, etc.

We are some ways from being finished with this, that is for sure.

We are attacking a wall in our house that has been covered previously with some not so great wall paper...

Can we post pictures on this forum? If so, I'll post some before and after pictures of the kitchen / dining that we are working on later this weekend.

Thanks and good to hear from you again!