Heat Pumps and Electric Heating - need to replace 30yr old heatpump

Here is my quote from lennox dealer is this a good system?
lennox G61MPV-36B-071 propane
lennox XP14-036-230
coil? CX34-38B-6F
& Humiditrol
6790.00 installed, complete

was told this is 94%flue, 8.5hspf and 14seer
would be another 1660.00 to qualify for fed tax credit??

Our HP & Furnace are 30 yr old york. AC is out, furnance still operates to the best of its ability, old and tired :coffee: suggestions please

Fed tax rebate is 1500 id spend the 1660 to get it,

If this is your first quote I would get several other quotes from other brands.

You've pointed out a pattern I've noticed: you pay an extra $1500 on the higher SEER/HSPF units to get a $1500 tax credit. Looks like the market is settlling into a new equilibrium due to government tax credits, but unfortunatly the home owner isn't really benefitting.

The benifit is cheaper electric and propane bills!

If this is your first quote I would get several other quotes from other brands.

Always get at least 3 quotes. Also have at least one load calc done.

As far as the tax credit goes... Personally I would get go with the most bang for my buck. Tax credit is a one time thing. An efficient unit is a monthly electric bill that is easier to swallow.

1) The capability of the installer is most important. Make an effort to discover which , if any, of the potential vendors are trained, experienced, knowledgeable. Pay more if necessary to get the best workman with the best reputation.
2) The new refrigerant for heat pump/AC systems is R410a - some dealers are still selling obsolete equipment that uses the soon to be banned R22 refrigerant. Make sure you get R410a system, and ask the vendor if they are equipped to service and install R410a units - it requires some investment which many dealers are unwilling to make.
3) Do not expect that a new system is going to be better than your 30 year old unit. I sure wish that I had made the effort to find replacement parts for my 30 year old York heat pump rather than purchase a new replacement - like so many appliances, new models are often "made by monkeys".

It is a start, but no one here can tell you if that is a reasonable since pricing is highly localized. I would get several other quotes from other brands (Carrier, Goodman, Fedders, etc.) and ask that they include several different SEER models/price points.

1) The capability of the installer is most important. Make an effort to discover which , if any, of the potential vendors are trained, experienced, knowledgeable. Pay more if necessary to get the best workman with the best reputation.
2) The new refrigerant for heat pump/AC systems is R410a - some dealers are still selling obsolete equipment that uses the soon to be banned R22 refrigerant. Make sure you get R410a system, and ask the vendor if they are equipped to service and install R410a units - it requires some investment which many dealers are unwilling to make.
3) Do not expect that a new system is going to be better than your 30 year old unit. I sure wish that I had made the effort to find replacement parts for my 30 year old York heat pump rather than purchase a new replacement - like so many appliances, new models are often "made by monkeys".

#1 True, word of mouth and BBB are good places to look.

#2 You can still get R-22 equipment and R-22. R-22 will be around a very long time if more expensive. I can still get R-12.

Read this:What You Should Know about Refrigerants When Purchasing or Repairing a Residential A/C System or Heat Pump | Ozone Depletion - Regulatory Programs | U.S. EPA (http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/22phaseout.html)

Some people are afraid of 410 because of pressure. Self education, new gauges and a recovery tank for 410 is all you need. No "big bucks" involved.

#3 True that. I think many of us could tell many, many stories about "monkey buit" equipment.

The only thing missing in all of this is....mom (for the last 6 days after post 1). :confused:

Right on EC.

Either we answer the question, or she thinks we are nuts old men bickering.

I am so confused,
about the old heatpump, compressor for AC is out, furnace still works but we seem to be using alot of elect. I guess I assumed the new equip would be more eff.
I also know, they do not make anything like they used to.
I did get another carrier quote I will post it later, it seemed awfully high. need to read all of the posts,
big problem is the old one would not keep the house cool either, lots of repairs.
will post again later. Thanks

Hi mom,

Did you get a known honest company to test and conclude it really is the compressor directly?, and not say the contactor bad or a bad capacitor or some other relatively cheap fix?

Just so this is not some guy or company in need of some cash right now. Was he specific as to what was wrong with the compressor?, as in - is it an electricial issue with it?, or mechanical?

If he did not explain or explain his test, I'd sure want to know if I was you, before taking the next step.

But. Anything you replace the old unit with will be more eff.

There is no reason you can not replace compressor in existing unit.

Howerver, the cost of replacement will be 1/3 to 1/2 cost of a new unit and have less warranty.

Problem is, does the furnace deliver the amount of air needed by the (a) new unit.

Might be 410 new equipment and this means a new lineset as well.

This was last summer on the ac, I think he said the out put, electrical was very low??Freon was fine, I know he used some kind of output meter on the outside unit, very helpful right??he did say we could do the outside unit only but suggested we consider matching the inside and outside system, due to the cost of the compressor alone. His quote for the lennox, included the new lineset and concrete pad outside, the old one sits on cement blocks.

we are so limited in our area, 6500 population have a few HVAC guys, The Lennox guy has worked on our old one many times and has always been fair in price and service. did
carrier quote, I just do not even know how to compare the two.
base system 2.5 ton 80% furnace
13 seer hp 6539.00
92% carrier and 15seer add 3365 to above
to qualify for Fed rebate add 4595 to first price
This seems crazy to me, along with no model # to compare.
We have a goodman dealer but his reputation is not good.
One of the kids needs to go to HVAC School!!

So far looks like Lennox is giving the straight scoop.

Carrier needs to provide model numbers along with written quote.

Get model numbers and we will compare for you. And explain it.

Big jump in price to get rebate. Question is, jump from which model to which model.

Sounds like someone is yanking your chain.

Never mind the goodman dealer, Goodman has a bad reputation in most circles.

How much do you get in fed rebate?

1500.00 Tax Credit if the system qualifies, I believe that would require 15 SEER, 12.5 EER abd 8.5HSPF and 95%flue

Lets see if we can put a TigerDunes in your tank.

Not saying these guys are better or worse than independent dealers but you might want to get quotes from some "big box" dealers like Lowe's, Home Depot or Sears. Just for comparison sake.

Have requested model # and other info, from carrier, still waiting!!!

Correction, the lennox furnace is 95%, should qualify for Fed rebate, also pure air would run additional 760.00, or the merv 16 for 200.00,Just a question, we live on a farm, ALOT of dust. what is your opinions of the two?

we are so limited in our area, 6500 population have a few HVAC guys, The Lennox guy has worked on our old one many times and has always been fair in price and service. did
carrier quote, I just do not even know how to compare the two.
base system 2.5 ton 80% furnace
13 seer hp 6539.00
92% carrier and 15seer add 3365 to above
to qualify for Fed rebate add 4595 to first price
This seems crazy to me, along with no model # to compare.
We have a goodman dealer but his reputation is not good.
One of the kids needs to go to HVAC School!!

So what we have been told so far - that if you go with the 2nd quote, you would get $1500 rebate - meaning second quote = +4595, but then -1500 = +3095 over cost of 80% unit.

So you have to do pay back estimates I guess on how many winters (early fall through mid-late spring) it will take to recover the $3095 based on the higher efficiency furnace running you less cost each year.

IF you saved $500 a heating season, by choosing the 95% over the 80%, it take you 6 years to break even.

That of course is based on my pull- a- figure- out- of- a- hat guess, of $500 per season.

At $300 savings per season, it take you 10 years payback time to break even.

The farther up north you live, the faster the payback time.

The farther south in the midwest, the longer it take, most likely.

Correction, the lennox furnace is 95%, should qualify for Fed rebate, also pure air would run additional 760.00, or the merv 16 for 200.00,Just a question, we live on a farm, ALOT of dust. what is your opinions of the two?

A lot of dust on the farm. How much in the house? A regular pleated filter should be fine if changed on a regular basis.

alot of dust in the house, I currently change the filters monthly

alot of dust in the house, I currently change the filters monthly

So what we have been told so far - that if you go with the 2nd quote, you would get $1500 rebate - meaning second quote = +4595, but then -1500 = +3095 over cost of 80% unit.

So you have to do pay back estimates I guess on how many winters (early fall through mid-late spring) it will take to recover the $3095 based on the higher efficiency furnace running you less cost each year.

IF you saved $500 a heating season, by choosing the 95% over the 80%, it take you 6 years to break even.

That of course is based on my pull- a- figure- out- of- a- hat guess, of $500 per season.

At $300 savings per season, it take you 10 years payback time to break even.

The farther up north you live, the faster the payback time.

The farther south in the midwest, the longer it take, most likely.

this is what I recieved from carrier exactly as it reads, see why I am confused. I have requested the model numbers from them.
1. base system consisting of 80% efficient carrier furnace and 13 seer HP 6539.00
2. 92% carrier furnace and 15 seer hp add to #1 price 3365.00
3. to qualify for fed rebate add to #1 price 4595.00

unless I am missing something, they want to charge me more than 10,000:wall: still waiting for the
rest of the info.

Umm, perhaps your confussion stems from living in such a small town and this guy is trying to rip you off that badly?

It is not going to cost $3.3 K to upgrade equipment from #1 to #2.

Nor is the cost of upgrade to #3 going to be that high.

1500.00 Tax Credit if the system qualifies, I believe that would require 15 SEER, 12.5 EER abd 8.5HSPF and 95%flue

Appears that you are looking at a "dual fuel" or "hybrid" system as am I.

You have to keep what you quoted above in mind to get the tax credit. Energy Star says that the following is required for heat pumps:

Air Source Heat Pumps Split Systems:

HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

30% of cost, up to $1,500

See their web site: Federal Tax Credits for Energy Efficiency : ENERGY STAR (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3)

The last part about 30% is important. The maximum credit is $1,500 and it is calculated at 30% of the installation cost for a maximum cost of $5,000 used for the credit.

The heat pump meeting those specs may cost $5,000 of the furnace/heat pump install and should be all that is needed to max out the tax credit. I have been trying to get the pros to verify this assumption and maybe those here can venture their opinion. If it is and the IRS accepts that portion, then the furnace efficiency is not material to the tax credit calculation. If this is the case, then the high efficiency furnace may not be required.

Depending on how much heat you need where you live, furnace efficiency could be needed or unnecessary. Here in Northwest Arkansas where we are, long periods of winter heat are not critical. If not needed or questionable, I would suggest looking at an 80% variable-speed furnace for comfort/lower cost electricity while used as heating backup or handling AC air distribution. This furnace could be quite a bit cheaper since it is simpler and requires no non-chimney air exhaust and intake. Again, the pros might shed useful light on the cost-savings of this approach.

mom, may have missed it but have any proposals mentioned manufacturer (really contractor and manufacturer) rebates? On a quality Lennox or other system meeting the Energy Star tax credit requirements you could be looking at quite a few $100's more back from the manufacturer shortly after the install. No wait until tax time next April. But most do have a June deadline for the order/install. You need proposal to specifically detail these rebates and when you can expect them.

Lennox dealer is not a promo dealer, no lennox rebate. 760.00 for Lennox pure air. 250.00 for Merv 16 filter set up.

there is a 250.00 rebate from utility company.

did manual J online and it says:
indoor summer temp 75
indoor winter temp 72
relative humidity 50

outdoor
summer temp 95
winter temp -2
summer grains moisture 66
daily temp range high
Thanks for all of your help

Never did get updated carrier quote and since I have asked for it 4 times over the last 3 weeks. I will not even consider them.

by the way, I have family in NW ARK, I do not miss the humidity, our winters in nebraska can be brutal.sub zero temps and high wind is not much fun.

by the way, I have family in NW ARK, I do not miss the humidity, our winters in nebraska can be brutal.sub zero temps and high wind is not much fun.

Ah, remember those winters well having lived in Chicago area for 30+ years. Where the wife and I were raised in Michigan on Lake Superior had 250+ inches of snow this last winter and it snowed (like blizzard in a few places) as recently as in mid-May.

I have our new Lennox system installed, it is so quite, I can barely tell it is running, except for all of the cool air. I love it. Thank all of you for your input.