Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Trying to select a system - any help appreciated

Hi -- I've browsed the forum a bit and found some helpful advice, bu wanted to see if folks could help me ask the right questions and select the right system.

At this stage, I've had a visit today from Kinetico and have one tomorrow from Culligan. I'm curious to see if they get similar readings and then hear how they'd address our needs so we can compare their suggestions and estimates.

Here are our details:
3000+ sq ft house that is 2 yrs old. 6 bedrooms, 5.5 baths, 4 regular residents (2 adult, 2 kids) maybe we have one more in the future. We regularly have multiple houseguests (at least one weekend a month) and a few times a year have 4-8 people staying with us. We have a few other worksinks, one full size and two smaller dishwashers, two icemakers, and a washer and dryer.

Our master shower has a rainhead and body sprays that draws a lot of water (it required 2 drains) that if I recall would go through 25 or so GPM if everything in there was on at once full tilt (rarely is, but is occasionally).

Because of the flow volume between that master shower and the potential for washer, dishwasher and other people using water simultaneously, we have a largely tankless system. We have 4 Rinnai tankless water heaters and a relatively small traditional hot water heater that I assume serves as a reservior in addition to being tied into a heat exchanger plate used to heat a water-based radiant floor system in a tiled basement.

We are on DC city water where we live in Arlington VA. I'll post the details after the tests but it's heavily chlorinated, somewhat hard, and has some iron that leaves slight stains where a sink drips, in toilet tanks, or on my sidewalk. Every now and again (every few months), I'll get a slight burst of orangish/brownish water usually out of the hot faucets/tub that runs clear in a few minutes.

I'm looking into a whole house system, primarily for two reasons:

1. We put a steam shower in that we have only used a few times. My wife used it once and said she had to get out because the chlorine was burning her eyes and nose. I have survived the experience but it is noticably bad. Even a shower with alot of water shooting around causes me a noticable bit of chlorine burning sensation in the back of my throat.

2. There are mineral buildups on all shower heads and other hard water indicia.

The iron thing doesn't seem to me like a big deal, but if we're tackling the problem, seems like we might as well try to solve that too.

Currently we have a filtered water feed on our kitchen sink that we use for drinking water - InSinkErator | F-201 Filtration System (http://www.insinkerator.com/product/product.php?id=17&template=hwd)
But otherwise the water we use throughout the house and in the icemakers etc is unfiltered.

OPTIONS:

I've asked Kinetico and Culligan to come by as they are two folks in the area and I wanted to get two different suggestions. If there are other companies I would be remiss in not considering, please let me know.

I do a fair number of things DIY but generally leave plumbing alone to the experts and would probably rather do the same here.

When the Kinetico rep was at my house today, I asked a few questions about water flow -- I obviously do not want our water pressure to go down and want to make sure the system is properly sized, but she seemed to dismiss them as nothing to worry about. While she asked about the number of people in the house, she didn't ask about number of bathrooms, water-using devices, other questions relating to GPM demands on the system etc.

Are those things relevant or will any whole house system satisfy our needs?

While there doesn't seem to be a conclusive answer in what I've seen on the boards, I'm interested in people's views on what seem to be the biggest differences between Kinetico and Culligan type systems -- electric vs water powered valve, two tanks vs one, pre-filter needs, etc.

I know enough terms to be dangerous and value your experience on this in helping my selection.

I'm not going to be DIY even though I recognize I could save money that way -- the time and serenity of knowing it is more likely done right is worth the cost difference at this stage for me.

Thanks and appreciate you taking the time to read this and offer any help you can.

When the Kinetico rep was at my house today, I asked a few questions about water flow -- I obviously do not want our water pressure to go down and want to make sure the system is properly sized, but she seemed to dismiss them as nothing to worry about. While she asked about the number of people in the house, she didn't ask about number of bathrooms, water-using devices, other questions relating to GPM demands on the system etc.

Are those things relevant or will any whole house system satisfy our needs?


It makes a whole lot of difference with your water flow. With both Kinetico and Culligan, you should expect to spend $3000.-5000.00. You can do a lot better buying one on line and having someone install it for you.
What is the hardness?

Thanks for weighing in - Today's test was an 8 hardness I believe (sheet at home), but will post both results tomorrow to confirm.

I poked around online and didn't really see how to measure/size the system based on water flow needs -- is there a simple formula?

Thanks

I'm familiar with your water demands. I used to live in Maryland and worked your area. Not sure what your chlorine levels are but I would guess between 2 and 3 ppm, which is quite high.

Your biggest hurdle is getting a system that can match the flow rte needed and remove that irritating bleachy smell, taste and other unfortunate aspects of chlorine.

Becca (was that her name?) may not have addressed all your concerns, and those are important. I think she is pretty new that at Mermaid II.

If you go with a Kinetico then a standard residential unit may not do the trick. What did she offer?

I would recommend a CP 213s OD. These are meant for commercial flow demands. Some facts: (These are some of things you could have asked.)
--Tanks are 13x54 with 2.5 cuft resin each
--Work in Overdrive which means both tanks are working at once except for regeneration.
--Flow rate: 28 gpm constant (40gpm peak)
--90 minute regeneration
--Regenerates every 4,461 gallons @ 15 pounds
--Backwash rate is 5 gpm- max.
--4000 grains per pound of salt...high efficiency rating

This will give you endless softened and iron-free water at even your maximum flow rate all day long. You can go with the next size down (CP210s OD) which gives you a 21gpg (31.6 peak). I suppose your main water line is 1" or 1.25", right?

As for the chlorine removal: two key factors are total chlorine count and typical flow rates. This might require an up-flow single tank with at least 2cuft of carbon. Bigger can be used, also.

The slight bursts of dirty water may come from occasional flushing of city lines. Kinetico's pre-filter can handle up to 42 gallons per minute and would handle this kind of water maintenance.

Compare Kinetico's warranty to Culligan's. Kinetico's is bumper-to-bumper--all parts and resin (as long as chlorine is removed).

I would recommend an RO for your drinking water purposes, as well.

Hope that helped a little,

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Thanks for the reply. I noticed your posts on some other threads and it seems like you're certainly in the know on Kinetico offerings.

Here's the remainder of the info on my water and the systems being proposed:

WATER TESTS:

Hardness - 8 in both tests

pH - 7.1/7.3

Chlorine -- 2.3/>3 ppm

Iron - solid -- .1 / negligible
Iron - Dissolved ppm -- .4/negligible

PROPOSED EQUIPMENT:

Kinetico: 4060 Carbon with In-line prefilter

Culligan: Platinum total home (either 10" or 12" depending on flow)

QUESTIONS:

I discussed the flow rate issue with the Culligan guy today - his data showed 14GPM on the 10" and 17.5GPM on the 12" system. I asked what happens if it exceeds that flow and he said it would be less filtered, but still filtered to some extent depending on the flow differential -- that sounded logical, but is it true? My major concern is a decrease in the flow rate -- we're fine now but any lessening of the water flow will be unacceptable in my view with our various needs.

I looked around online but can't tell - what's the difference between the 4060s, 4060f and OD models? Kinetico rep didn't specify which it was.

Electric Gauge or Not -- We have electric right there and I don't buy into the 'computers go obsolete, break etc' sell point, but I do have a curious question about this scenario with a Culligan or elec meter (albeit an unlikely one) -- let's say the meter breaks or power fails when it is in regen or backwash mode. I assuem the elec motor has moved the valve into that position and would be needed to bring it back to the usable filtered water position. If the valve breaks or power is out while in that position, do you have water and if so filtered or not in the meantime until a service tech can come out? Is that valve manually adjustable to address that contingency or are you SOL in the water dep't until then?

Space -- this is another problem for us. We should have dealt with this when we built the house but didn't. The only real space is in the service area in front of a corner's worth of wall mounted Rinnais and next to the reservior hot water tank. It will be tight so the size of the unit is a big factor, as some difficult but doable access needs to remain around it. Culligan said the salt tank could be positioned a few feet away on the other side of the water heater in front of the furnace (but could be moved in the event of service needs on that side), bu even then it will be tight. I can post a photo if helpful but it seems like perhaps the 4060 is a bit shorter than the Culligan unit even if wider due to the two tanks. The commercial option seems bigger.

Our main line through the shutoff seems to be 3/4" but not entirely sure.

To increase flow, do the Kinetico units run water through both tanks simultaneously or do they alternate?

Thanks!

I forgot one test datum: Culligan measured total dissolved solids at 150 ppm. Kinetico didn't measure. I don't really want a RO system under the sink -- we already use the Insinkerator somewhat-filtered instahot and cold dispenser i the kitchen, I don't want yet another spigot, and I've also heard that having RO with kids removes flouride from water which isn't ideal since it protects their teeth.