Communications: Voice, Radio and Data - Separating phone/data signal

I wonder if anyone here can explain this to me. I'm rewiring my house. I only want one telephone cable to enter the house, but I want several different lines. I want one for my land phone, one for internet, and I might want one for a separate fax line. That's 3. I know you can get up to 4 different lines out of one phone cable. You make the connections in something called a 66 block if I'm not mistaken.

What I don't understand is how the phone company knows you have separate lines if you have your own 66 block inside your house? Like if you don't call them and say you want 3 separate lines, and you set them up yourself inside your house, how are they going to know to triple the size of your bill?

There would be tenants living in this house in their own separate apartment. Again, I really do not want more than one hole in the exterior wall for a phone cable. Therefore I do not want the phone company to come here and drill another hole to provide phone/internet service to the tenants. So if I have my own 66 block inside, can I connect separate lines for the tenants myself? Or at least could the phone company come here and create new connections for the tenants by using my 66 block? Or would they still have to drill another hole in the wall?

To make my point more clearly, can I use this 66 block to create several different phone lines coming out of only ONE initial phone cable which enters the house and then enters one side of the 66 block and is then distributed into several (more than 4) completely separate lines going to various wall jacks?

Your confusing a cable with a line

a line is a number and the associated dialtone the telephone company provides

they know to bill because they provide it to the nid

you can't create more lines , you can add jacks

once the telephone company provides you a line you can activate as few or many jacks as you like from that line

if you only want one cable entering the bldg I would use a 6 or 12 pair going to a 66 block to give you room for expansion

(or use two 4 pair cables )

I can't speak for how it is done in Canada but the majority of homes in the US that have been built in the last twenty or so years have what is called a four-pair drop cable installed from the telephone company's connection box located either in someone's front yard or on a nearby utility pole depending on whether you have underground or overhead wiring. The four pairs allow for four separate telephone circuits within the single cable. Remember that a cable is made up of two or more individual conductors encased in a jacket.

This drop cable connects to a box, usually on the outside but it could be inside, that is called a Network Interface Device or NID. The NID is the end of the telephone company's responsibility and the beginning of the customer's premise wiring. It is at the NID that you make the various connections for different services. You could use a 66 block to make all the connections from the various jacks in the house and then cross connect to the proper wire pairs from the NID.

Whether or not the NID is inside or outside you could have a four-pair cable run from the NID through a single hole to the 66 block or other distribution point. I suggest that you read the various posts in this category going back at least a year for more information.

Find the demark point as mentioned. If its aerial wire or buried, its gonna terminate in some kinda protector block. (modern is a
"nid" mounted on the exterior, old type are usually near the electrical panel on a block) Count the wires that come from the feed end. (they dont have to be terminated, just in the cable sheath feeding you). If you have 4 wires, then you have "2 pairs" and you can have 2 seperate phone numbers on 2 seperate circuits.. this would be minimum for you.. one line for your phone/DSL (internet) and fax.. and the second line for your tenants. If you want to have your phone line operate independent from your fax, then you're gonna need 6 wires coming in (3 pairs) (phone+dsl, fax, tenants).
A 66 block (or similar) only parallels the same number/circuit to multiple locations.

Your confusing a cable with a line

a line is a number and the associated dialtone the telephone company provides

they know to bill because they provide it to the nid

you can't create more lines , you can add jacks

once the telephone company provides you a line you can activate as few or many jacks as you like from that line

if you only want one cable entering the bldg I would use a 6 or 12 pair going to a 66 block to give you room for expansion

(or use two 4 pair cables )

Ok, I guess 2 phone cables can enter the house as long as they enter the same hole. I counted 13 holes for coax and phone before ripping some of them out. There are cables all over the place. I'm just trying to clean things up.

I did not understand where the lines are created. I thought maybe they were created by the phone company in their own 66-block type piece of equipment located up the street. So if you have your own 66 block, then you would be able to create lines as well. Thanks for clearing that up.

I can't speak for how it is done in Canada but the majority of homes in the US that have been built in the last twenty or so years have what is called a four-pair drop cable installed from the telephone company's connection box located either in someone's front yard or on a nearby utility pole depending on whether you have underground or overhead wiring. The four pairs allow for four separate telephone circuits within the single cable. Remember that a cable is made up of two or more individual conductors encased in a jacket.

This drop cable connects to a box, usually on the outside but it could be inside, that is called a Network Interface Device or NID. The NID is the end of the telephone company's responsibility and the beginning of the customer's premise wiring. It is at the NID that you make the various connections for different services. You could use a 66 block to make all the connections from the various jacks in the house and then cross connect to the proper wire pairs from the NID.

Whether or not the NID is inside or outside you could have a four-pair cable run from the NID through a single hole to the 66 block or other distribution point. I suggest that you read the various posts in this category going back at least a year for more information.

I'm sure the procedure is the same in Canada as in the US. There is a telephone pole serving my house as well as at least 3 of my neighbors. The NID attached to my house was put there last year by the phone company and it has 4-pair CAT wiring inside. If I'm not mistaken the cable entering the house from the NID is also 4-pair but it terminates inside in something apparently dating from the 1950s which is not 4-pair compatible. After that, the only line which is currently working, the one I am using now, is on 2-pair cable. None of the phone jacks are up to date. They are all daisy-chained and using 2-pair.

So from reading your response as well as the other responses from mango man and davec72 and from other reading I have done tonight elsewhere I think I understand that the lines have to be created already before they reach the 66 block. So for example, I could take the 4-pair CAT 5e from the NID and connect each pair to different jumpers on the 66 block but I would still only have one line until I asked the phone company to activate these other 3 pairs as separate lines.
If I did what I just described, what would happen? Would jacks wired to the other 3 pairs work on the phone line I have now, or would they just not work? I'm assuming they would not work because only 1 pair is connected to the connector inside the NID.

Find the demark point as mentioned. If its aerial wire or buried, its gonna terminate in some kinda protector block. (modern is a
"nid" mounted on the exterior, old type are usually near the electrical panel on a block) Count the wires that come from the feed end. (they dont have to be terminated, just in the cable sheath feeding you). If you have 4 wires, then you have "2 pairs" and you can have 2 seperate phone numbers on 2 seperate circuits.. this would be minimum for you.. one line for your phone/DSL (internet) and fax.. and the second line for your tenants. If you want to have your phone line operate independent from your fax, then you're gonna need 6 wires coming in (3 pairs) (phone+dsl, fax, tenants).
A 66 block (or similar) only parallels the same number/circuit to multiple locations.

It's definitely a 4-pair (8 wires) CAT5 cable in the demarc on the outside brick. I will have to re-check what is actually entering the house.

Anyways if I want 3 lines to be available to each unit (2 units) then I would need 2 4-pair cables to enter the house.

Anyways if I want 3 lines to be available to each unit (2 units) then I would need 2 4-pair cables to enter the house.

or one 6 pair cable ....................

It's definitely a 4-pair (8 wires) CAT5 cable in the demarc on the outside brick. I will have to re-check what is actually entering the house.
Anyways if I want 3 lines to be available to each unit (2 units) then I would need 2 4-pair cables to enter the house.

Ok, so the 4 pair coming in from the pole gives you 4 seperate circuits, 2 per unit if you divide it up equally. Dont forget that high-speed (dsl) does not require a separate pair.. that signal can ride 'on top of' any standard line (fax line or voice line). A dial-up computer line requires a separate pair unless you are willing to share the usage with the fax or voice line (one at a time). We have some friends who just have one line into their house and they use a dial-up modem for the internet. Sometimes we're trying to call them and its busy busy busy for an hour or so as they do their web stuff.. lol. I just have one pair into here, but I have dsl.. so we can be on the net and take/make voice calls at the same time.

Probably a tidy way to do your unit separation would be to run 2 separate 4 pair cables (they do make 3 pair cable, but its harder to find..) from the telco demark to 2 separate 66 or other type bridging blocks inside (one for unitA one for unitB). From there you can split off to jacks etc internally.

As you have read, the best way to run the jacks is home-run or star type wiring.. they all come back to the bridging blocks. Some older places are wired in a ring fashion.. usually by a DIY job or an electrician that didnt know any better..

My mistake, the phone company cable is only 4-wire. Now I have to ask under what circumstances would the phone company go to the trouble and expense of upgrading their 4-wire cable to 8-wire? Is this even something I should want them to do? Would it make a difference?

And as you can see from the photo, only 2 of the wires are connected. They run from the right side of the grey NID to one side of the old black NID. The 2 black cables enter the house as separate lines. I plan to remove this old NID and rip out the cables. I also assume I should attach the yellow and black wire to the empty terminals on the new NID, then run it inside. Or perhaps I should remove this cable and attach a new CAT5e to the new NID, then run it inside. Which is recommended? Or am I completely wrong in my assumptions?


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That looks like the new entrance cable (2 pair), comes in on the right from above, terminates to the 2 pair nid, then just the reg green of that inside wire jumpers over to the old protection block on the right side 3/8 bolts. There's an inside wire( red/orange wires) talking off from there and going behind the nid (?) and then following the right side upward . There's also an outside single pair line connected to the same line. Does it go thru the wall and along the outside of the house to some other jack ? Then there's the (unconnected at the nid) yellow black feeding the left side 3/8 bolts. That outside wire goes somewhere too.

Thats my guess (im a splicer, not an installer, but ive seen a few..). You certainly have to get rid of the old protector. The bigger 'bolts' above contain carbon protection.. it gets dirty.. partial grounds, noise. I would assume that NID has protection (dont they all ? im not sure). Although... from the pic.. where's the ground wire ??? You *need* some type of lightning/electrical protection.. check on that one.

Maybe those old outside lines go nowhere ? They coulda been leftover from the nid upgrade. Would be good to remove them if not used.

It would be nice to supply a tenant their own demark.. like running a cat5 from the nid to their own electrical room etc. But , odds are there is no good place to put a demark in their own area.. so its up to you if you're gonna run a single cat5 cat5 4 pair to a common branchout block.. or 2 2 pair runs to the same area (side by side terminations ?)

Its up to the telco to provide any lines needed to cover the install requested.. to the nid. They might have to swap out the nid or put a 2nd unit. If they use 2 x 2pair nids, then having the 2 separate 2 pair cat5s on your side of the nid would make life easier... just swing one over.

Anyhow, check if the nid is grounded and protected.. if so then pull those old carbons out.

That's correct, the service comes in from the top in an old black cable which connects to the right side of the old NID. Then the red and green from a 4-wire connect to the new NID. That connects to another black cable which enters the house. There's another line using 2-wire cable which also enters the house from the old NID. And you noticed the cable running up the side of the house. A previous owner decided it would be a good idea to run an extra phone line outside the house rather than inside. I will take care of that when I install my new structured wiring.

I don't think the tenants will get their own demarc - I've spent hours planning it out and it looks like the least destructive, most efficient and convenient way for me is to put everything in the basement. The tenant unit will have their own phone lines and cable tv service but they won't be able to access the inside panel without asking me to let them into the basement. But why would they need to. All they will care about is whether their phone and internet and tv works or not.

So how should I wire the grey NID? I thought I would remove the old cables (and the old NID, and the 1950s things they are connected to inside) and run two brand new CAT5e in their place. One for each apartment. That means up to 4 lines for each apartment. Is there a specific pattern to follow, or can you just connect any pair to any of the bolts? Does it matter which bolt you connect the pairs to? It's probably a stupid question but I'm asking because I haven't done this before. I do research before trying new things but find that often the most basic steps are left out of instructions.

Oh.. then I had it backwards. You're saying the entrance cable from the pole terminates on the old carbon protector ? (I had the entrance cable as the black line going to the new NID).

If that's the case, then they sure did a crap job installing that new NID. They left one inside wire not even going to the NID. Is *anything* grounded there ? Is there a ground wire on the middle stud of the old protector ? (maybe it goes directly thru the brick with the other inside wire?)

Also, you cant touch those old protectors if they are on the telco side of the NID. Best bet might be to call up the telco and tell them what you intend to do (getting ready to have an apt, etc). Hopefully they will come out and replace the entrance cable with something larger and get rid of those old carbon protectors.

If you run some new cat5e's from the nid to inside, you would normally then put one blue-white on the line-1 screws on the customer side of the nid, and the other cat5e's blue-white on the line-2 screws. You can see how they have line-1 inside wire on those screws already. I guess that black 2-pair cable going up on the right of the new NID isnt connected to any screws ?

The 'standard' is blue-white for the 'line 1' for each unit.. then you would use orange-white for a 'line 2'. If it were a single home, then you would have blue-white and orange-white for line1 and 2. But, since you are splitting the entrance for 2 units, then I would keep to blue-white line1-apt1.. then blue-white (of the 2nd inside cable) as line1-apt2.

Hope thats clear.. on my first coffee still.. lol

It's not that easy to see unless you zoom in on the photo. The phone company didn't wire directly to the new NID. They just took a short piece of 4-line cable and jumpered it into the new NID from the old one. I think there are 2 phone companies involved here so maybe that's why there's 2 NIDs. Like one can't touch the other one's installed equipment. And I only asked for 1 line, so that's probably why only one line got jumpered over.

None of these NIDs appear to be grounded unless they are grounded somewhere out of sight. However, one of the 50-year old things inside the house is grounded, and it is connected to one of the lines in the old NID. There are 2 of these things; one for each of the black cables entering the house. I can't tell if the other one is grounded somewhere. It might be, just not directly. But there is a total mess of wires connected to each other and it is very difficult to make sense of them. The grounded one may or may not be tied somehow into the un-grounded one.

What happens if I remove the old protector/NID? Can I be fined or something?

I suppose there's probably a procedure for a fine, not generally used Id think. If you bugger something up and they have to come fix it up and discover you were messing around on the telco side, they might hand you a nice bill.

Im not sure how you're going to replace those carbon protectors. At the least they're providing a connection point (one to the inside "50 yr old protector" and one to the new NID). Those old single line (2 wire) drops coming in from the pole are solid copper, but extending them with marretts etc is just asking for noisy lines in time. Plus.. you're *still* limited to only 2 phone circuits as-is. A new 6 pair entrance cable with a new 6 pair NID (with protection) would be the deluxe solution. You could call the telco and ask if it's possible.. they might want some proof (or even a firm order) of more lines before they would do it though.

So, if there is no wire on the center stud of that old 2 pair carbon protector to the left of the new NID, then its not protecting anything. Does the new NID have protectors in it ? (some do, some dont).. and does it appear to have a ground wire going into the building somehow ? If not, then you have no protection on those lines (the inside wire and the outside type wire) going upward on the right side of the pic there. Maybe the '50 yr old' protector is at least grounded inside.. does that one look like a large cap in the middle with 2 long shafts on each side ? If so, then under the large cap is another set of carbon blocks..

Gotta love what time does to telco work.. lol

It seems like your telephone company are not too interested in doing a good job. Somtimes I wonder here myselves.

Here they would charge me just to come and take a look, a lot of my neighbours has stoped the service, everyone has their own mobile, and if they need a "regular" line they just put in an ATA on the data-network and connects to a locost, and less reliable service.

I keep on my single line until they stops acceptimng my rotary dial phones. My second line is just for fun, and is connected to an ata, and the free Collectors network C*Net (http://www.ckts.info/)

dsk

Well I don't want any fines, but I'm not sure either phone company will do what I want them to. Both of them will say it's the other one's problem so they will make it more complicated than it has to be, even though they are standing right there. Like I have 2 NIDs now when I only need one.

So my plan for the afternoon is to get some outdoor-rated CAT5e, 4-pair cable and run them into the house. Where there is a green wire connected to a bolt on the new NID, I'll attach a blue-white pair. Where the red wire is attached to the lower bolt, I'll attach an orange-white pair. That's for the first cable. That one is also connected to the line that runs up the side of the house on the outside, and I need that one to work for now.
For the 2nd new cable, I won't connect it to anything, I'll just push the end through the hole in the NID where it's supposed to go. There's nothing installed on that side to connect it to.

The new NID does not appear to be grounded on its own. I do not know how to ground it.

As you can tell, I don't understand the required procedure 100%.

Here's a picture of the things the cables are connected to inside the house. I can tell one of them is grounded but I don't know about the other one.

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Ya ok.. those inside protector are *old* also.. lol.

Looks like what they did was ground the one (to the electrical panel or metal water pipe or main house ground), then use the yellow wire of the 2-pair inside-wire as the ground 'jumper' to make the connection to the outside carbon protectors (and probably there is a yellow doing the same thing to the new NID ?).. that helps drain off some voltage, but not much. In the event of a good surge of voltage, that yellow wire will evaporate.. lol Ive seen it done like that before though.

In the new nid, your line-1 terminals are the ones the red/green is connected to currently (2 wires, one 'pair'). That's your existing phone line, put the new cat5 outdoor rated cable into the NID and put the blue wire to where the red wire is. Put the matching white (with blue stripe , or the white that is twisted with the blue) to where the green wire is. If you want, you can put the 2nd new cable's white/blue pair onto the other 2 customer-side screws as well.

Do not put 'both' the blue and white under one screw.

Ya ok.. those inside protector are *old* also.. lol.

Looks like what they did was ground the one (to the electrical panel or metal water pipe or main house ground), then use the yellow wire of the 2-pair inside-wire as the ground 'jumper' to make the connection to the outside carbon protectors (and probably there is a yellow doing the same thing to the new NID ?).. that helps drain off some voltage, but not much. In the event of a good surge of voltage, that yellow wire will evaporate.. lol Ive seen it done like that before though.

In the new nid, your line-1 terminals are the ones the red/green is connected to currently (2 wires, one 'pair'). That's your existing phone line, put the new cat5 outdoor rated cable into the NID and put the blue wire to where the red wire is. Put the matching white (with blue stripe , or the white that is twisted with the blue) to where the green wire is. If you want, you can put the 2nd new cable's white/blue pair onto the other 2 customer-side screws as well.

Do not put 'both' the blue and white under one screw.

Thanks for the detailed advice. I'll post back here with the results. If you don't hear from me that means things have gone very badly...

ooks like what they did was ground the one (to the electrical panel or metal water pipe or main house ground), then use the yellow wire of the 2-pair inside-wire as the ground 'jumper' to make the connection to the outside carbon protectors (and probably there is a yellow doing the same thing to the new NID ?).. that helps drain off some voltage, but not much. In the event of a good surge of voltage, that yellow wire will evaporate.. lol Ive seen it done like that before though. look close there is a ground wire along with the yellow on the ground terminal

the yellow on the pair and half cable was used for ringer ground

no need for it now

why would there be "outside carbon protectors" ?

the carbon protectors are the screw slot right above the studs

The new NID does not appear to be grounded on its own. I do not know how to ground it.

As you can tell, I don't understand the required procedure 100%. what your doing is not DIY it is telcos property and responsibility to do it correctly

it is regulated and you cant leaglly change it

particularity when you don't understand the procedure

I missed the earlier pictures the newer nid (gray has a ground wire , no need for one on the older one as it is just feeding the newer one where the protection is

you really need to get the phone company's or someone knowledge involved to evaluate and clean this up properly and safely

look close there is a ground wire along with the yellow on the ground terminal

the yellow on the pair and half cable was used for ringer ground

no need for it now

why would there be "outside carbon protectors" ?

the carbon protectors are the screw slot right above the studs

what your doing is not DIY it is telcos property and responsibility to do it correctly

it is regulated and you cant leaglly change it

particularity when you don't understand the procedure

I missed the earlier pictures the newer nid (gray has a ground wire , no need for one on the older one as it is just feeding the newer one where the protection is

you really need to get the phone company's or someone knowledge involved to evaluate and clean this up properly and safely

I seriously considered doing that but there are 2 or 3 companies involved and 3 or 4 sets of property, mine, Bell's, and Primus's, or this Globility whoever they are, they must contract out for Primus. This means there are too many jurisdictions and the problem won't get solved, even if I call people to come out here and fix it. They will just add to the complexity or say there's nothing they can do.
I actually called Primus and they said they would get back to me but didn't.

Anyways, I'm almost finished. I have bypassed the old Bell NID and directly attached the telco wires to the new Globility NID. The phone and internet is working the same as before. I have run new cables into the house and will soon connect them to the NID and test them out.

But before I do that, I still don't know where to ground the new NID. I haven't seen anything to attach a grounding wire to and there's no grounding pole nearby.

I think I've found the grounding contact.

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The information I have tells me I can ground it by connecting copper wire to the contact and to the internal plumbing, which is grounded.

Edit: I have grounded the NID to a cold water pipe using 12-gauge. It's better than what was there before.

Using one of the new CAT5e, I connected the blue to the telco red and the blue/white to the telco green in the NID. Then I connected this line to an old phone jack to see if I had wired it correctly and it worked!

This is excellent news because it means I didn't damage the cable pulling it through the wall, cutting it, pulling it along the ceiling, etc. I keep reading that it's easy to damage.
It also means I won't have to hire anyone to do this project for me.

Now I need to get the structured cable components and wire them up.

Many thanks to DaveC72, Furd and MangoMan.

It does look like there's some sort of protector module where you are indicating the ground connection. That center nut is where you want your ground wire. The other nuts accept the tip and ring incoming from the pole and outgoing to the back of the customer side of the nid (as appears to be there in that pic).

@mangoman: I agree the duplication of the protectors isnt needed, probably a result of years of revisits by the telco. Now that I look at that first pic again, looks like they used the yellow there to tie into the inside protector as well. As to check if any carbon blocks exist under those 'bolts' above the wire terminals in the outside protector.. he would have to unscrew them.. maybe they're long since gone ?.