Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - RO system -- Watts Premier vs Kinetico K5

Hi y'all:

I spent the past few days scouring the web and learning everything I could about RO units, boiling it down to two manufacturers: Watts and Kinetico.

Great reviews of the Watts WP-5 system won me over initially with it's very attractive price and terrific customer feedback. The Costco model (for $140 web order) was highly rated, and for the price I felt it was a steal. So I went ahead and ordered it. Then I saw the Amazon product, WP5-50, which looked even more attractive (with it's additional high-quality TFC 50gpd membrane); so I also ordered it for $220, thinking I could return the Costco and stick with the Amazon version. An easy decision for me, considering I'm rather frugal and had found the Kinetico K5 price a bit too much to absorb. But then... :cool:

...I read the compelling discussions made by AndyC and Justalurker here on the Kinetico K5 advantages. Suddenly I wasn't too sure about my Watts purchase(s). So informative and persuasive were their arguments in favour of a Kinetico K5 system that I felt I had to give Kinetico a chance. Hence I called my local Kinetico dealer in Round Rock to discuss the product and pricing. I figured I would spend only about 10-15 minutes on the phone with the dealer until I came to my financial senses and went with the cheaper Watts solution.

Well, the phone call ended up lasting 45-50 minutes during which the owner (Leonard Strickler of American Water Conditioning Inc.) generously explained everything I needed to know about RO -- all without being pushy about selling me the unit. We spoke about the three MOST IMPORTANT needs I had for an RO unit: a certified VOC filter, a reliable membrane and a solid means of moving the water through the RO faucet.

Y'see, in my part of Austin, my area's slowly moving from well water to lake water, and so there's been increasing concern of VOC presence after our transition to surface water. I know Watts advertises a VOC filter, but I've read that Kinetico's filters are the only EPA and NSF-certified ones. My parents visit me a lot, and ever since my dad's very serious operation a few months ago, I need to be sure he's taking in safe fluids. We've been buying him bottled water for some time, and at least I know I can trust Kinetico to provide a safe substitute. The Watts unit might also be a fine choice, but considering I'm rather clumsy with appliance installations, I wouldn't be completely comfortable with it.

Well, I'll cut to the chase here... So, VOC filtration's certified, and the K5 as many of you know has a self-flushing, self-maintaining membrane that consistently alleviates harmful pressure which could stretch out/expand the pore size. And of course, the WOW (water-on-water) delivery system ensures you're getting consistent water flow dependent on your household water pressure. All lines are 3/8" so you know you're gonna get a good flow.

So I bit the bullet and yeah -- paid my $1300 for a Kinetico K5 system to be installed under my kitchen sink. For me this was a difficult payment, as I'm by no means a rich man. But I figured, hey, this investment is in high-quality drinking water, for which there can be no compromise. I was even thinking about replacing my old Kenmore water softener with a Kinetico 2060 (which is discounted by 50% with the purchase of the K5) but I'll stew on that longer.

So the Kinetico K5 and tank are under my kitchen sink and running marvellously. The service was terrific; the service guy Justin came the very next day after my phone conversation with the dealer and installed the unit in 1-2 hours. Water tastes great and I no longer have to scan through weekly ads to find out where I can buy cheap cases of Dasani or Evian. Peace of mind for me and my family. I don't know what Culligan service providers are like, but these Kinetico folk sure are well-informed and friendly.

Complaints? Well, it's only been a few days since the K5 was installed, so I can't say anything's come up. Although I do want to say that the flow out of the RO faucet is VERY STRONG, so I've been splashing the counter top quite frequently. I do attribute that to my own stupidity than anything else, however. There is a slight noise emitted from the sink drain hole when the tank refills itself, but it's not bad at all. And no electrical requirements is a really cool feature.

One thing that I found really unique is that the K5 can be customized for different filter configurations to address any future concerns about water contaminants. If some day you happen to see black helicopters outside your window and start panicking about biological toxins in the water, put on your tin foil hat and call up your Kinetico dealer for a filter setup that'll protect you against such an attack. Hey, who knows, right? :p

Really though, I thank all of you people who helped inform me of what Kinetico has to offer. I NEVER heard about them until I read this forum. Unbelievable how difficult it is to google for testaments on their products. If there's one thing I might want to complain about Kinetico, it's that their marketing staff need to be more aggressive with advertising their products. Honestly, other than what I read here and one other DIY website, I found much more feedback on the Watts products than the K5. Pity, really.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading. :D

I agree on all points, including its purcahse price is a bit jaw-dropping. Kinetico makes the unit for those that are truly serious about a high quality drinking water station.

The virus/bacteria filter, which is good certified 2000 gallons, is unique in the industry. New fridges have made it difficult to apply RO water and the K5 has addressed that with very high flow rate and an additional booster tank if exteneded line distance or multiple dispensors are required.

In all fairness, the WATTS RO has demonstrated some unique and convenient features that puts it above the typical units available for residential use. The K5, however, stands alone in quality, warranty and performance and, again, is designed for serious use...and users.

Andy Chrsitensen, CWS-II

Pembriar,
That was the pro side of the K5. Let me give you the con side. First of all the cost. If the other RO's only lasted 5 years and you had to buy a new one, you could have gone almost 30years before you hit that $1300.00 price The water quality is going to be the same for both units. Carbon will remove VOC's. You are stuck with who you bought it from. You will not be able to find the filters elsewhere. And I just happen to know Leonard personally. You either pay him what he asks for or you suffer. If the unit has a MAC filter (Metered Activated Carbon) on it, it will shut off all of a sudden and you will have to wait for service to change the filters or go buy one from Kinetico. In the mean time, you don't have any water to drink.

Hi y'all:

Well, I'll cut to the chase here... So, VOC filtration's certified, and the K5 as many of you know has a self-flushing, self-maintaining membrane that consistently alleviates harmful pressure which could stretch out/expand the pore size. And of course, the WOW (water-on-water) delivery system ensures you're getting consistent water flow dependent on your household water pressure. All lines are 3/8" so you know you're gonna get a good flow.

Complaints? Well, it's only been a few days since the K5 was installed, so I can't say anything's come up. Although I do want to say that the flow out of the RO faucet is VERY STRONG, so I've been splashing the counter top quite frequently. I do attribute that to my own stupidity than anything else, however.



One of the things about certification is that with some units they will have a 'component' certification, which mean one or more parts (tank, etc.) is certified but not the unit. The K5 is a system certification tested just as you have it under your sink.

Yes, the flow coming out ouf the faucet is so strong I had to learn to angle my glass a certain way as not to have it splash back out. It is a combination of the 3/8" lines and pressure supplied by your household water pressure (25-60psi). This is what makes it great for fridge delivery.

Not all carbon filters are rated for VOC reduction and not all waters have that as an issue to address. But, as you said, there are additional filter configurations to meet other demands including perchlorates, arsenic, virus, bacteria, etc., if there is a need.

Regardless if you get a high quality unit that lasts for decades or a bargain-basement desposible one, customer satisfaction is one of the key components in a market society. Of course, a consummer must not be duped and learning your product is important.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Biermech,

Thanks for the comments! Yes, always good to keep the cons of any purchase in mind. The $1300 initial payment hit hard, no question. That's a huge chunk of change for me (and for most people, I'm sure), and perhaps I would have gotten similar results with a much-cheaper unit.

But for me, the peace-of-mind this Kinetico K5 provides has made the difference for me. I'm totally useless in all plumbing matters and I needed a quick solution, fast. I'd read concerns from users about installation issues with the different RO units, and that worried me. If they had problems with doing under-the-sink maintenance, it would translate to a complete disaster in my case. Not to mention that even after installation, I would always wonder if I botched it somehow and might experience a leak because of my clumsiness. I could hire a local plumber to install it, but at their rates it would have doubled the cost.

I really did spend several hours going over reviews of different ROs, and the more I read, the more I'd get confused or doubtful. It was getting old really fast, not to mention very tiring. I wanted to find a hassle-free, complete system that provided a guaranteed, certified solution to my household drinking water needs.

Peace of mind. That was simply it. The K5's a high quality product (perhaps priced a bit exorbitantly) that I know for sure is going to provide good drinking water and NSF-certified VOC filtration over the next few years. During the Kinetico visit, I learned quite a bit about plumbing and potable water in my area, so ordering and replacing the 500 gallon filter set is easily doable by me. My local Austin Kinetico provider's been in business for 21+ years, so the help is there if/when I need it. Should I need to move to another location, I'm gonna pack up the K5 and take it with me wherever I go. Kinda like the reliable, iron Kirby vacuum cleaner my family had for decades before we ended up giving it away.

For knowledgeable people who can do their own RO installations, I say go ahead and DIY with a Watts Premier unit, especially if/when the Watts VOC is NSF certified. If you can do your own troubleshooting, then that's terrific. You'll be saving yourself a whole lot of money. For people like me who lack the confidence and knowledge of messing around with household water piping, I suggest giving your local Kinetico dealer a call to at least discuss some options. Beer 4U2

New fridges have made it difficult to apply RO water and the K5 has addressed that with very high flow rate and an additional booster tank if exteneded line distance or multiple dispensors are required.

Andy, thanks for the information and of course the advice you've provided us lurkers over the past months. Yes, I also wanted to hook up my RO to my Kenmore fridge water feed, but wasn't able to without incurring all kinds of crazy modifications since my kitchen tap and fridge are quite isolated from each other.

Yes, angling the glass when filling up has helped somewhat, although the flow is still so strong that I still make a bit of a mess. Guess I just need to train myself to twist the handle a bit less furiously...

Say, is there a way to reduce the flow through the Kinetico tap? Can we adjust it by turning that blue plastic valve that feeds into the K5 unit from the home cold water supply? Just wondering.

Thanks!

Don't adjust any of the ball valves. That can affect flow sensors. Just don't open the faucet handle all the way.

Andy

I was searching the net and came across this forum about the Kinetico K5. I was basically searching because I was looking for potential complaints about Kinetico resulting from a recent issue.

First, a little background. I built my own home 5 years ago and the source water is from a well, water is pretty hard with a lot of iron. I purchased the complete Kinetico system, Water Softener System MACH 2175s & R/O Drinking Water System plus VX Deluxe w/ 3 gallon QuickFlo Storage Tank. Total price tag was $4,590.00 I know, OUCH!! Even though other systems like Culligan & Hague were about a third of the price they were not able to match the certified testing standards for NSF or QWA. Also, at that time, they would not match the 10 year & 7 year warranties for Softener & R/O systems respectively. So for a new home when I was able to roll the price tag into the construction loan it was an easy decision for me. (Side note: today's K5 Drinking Water System is yesterday's VX Deluxe with an enclosed case.) Anyway, earlier this week, after the system had only been in operation for 4 years & 9 months I suddenly had no Drinking Water coming out of the tap. The pre & post filters still had half their lives left but I replaced them with new ones anyway. Still no water. I grabbed both the owner's manuals for the R/O system & the QuickFlo storage tank. Those were completely worthless for troubleshooting. I then looked at the Installation instructions for both, again worthless. So there was nothing that I could do myself, I had to call out a service tech. But no worries because my system was still under warranty.

The tech came out today, was here all of 30 minutes inspecting and eventually replacing the head on the QuickFlo tank. As he was gettting ready to leave he asks, "So how do you want to pay for this?" Of course I said, "I shouldn't have to pay anything, it's still under warranty." He replies, "The parts are, not the labor!" So I run and grab the warranty and wouldn't you know in the fine print it reads 'does not include freight or labor charges.' OK, they got me! So how much you ask, try $139.00 for 30 minutes of work and their office/warehouse is only 10 minutes from my home. The plastic replacement part was maybe $10. That warranty really paid off. :rolleyes: I originally paid $1,445 for the R/O system w/ tank and now add $139 more today, for a whopping $1,584.

Bottom line, understand what you are truly getting. Is the water quality better with Kinetico, I would say yes! However, I could literally buy a new Culligan or Hague system every 5 years over a 15 year period and it would have cost me the same amount of money!! Just something to think about.

I feel your pain. The new K5 has eliminated that issue with the Quickflow tank by converting the modular to the manifold and not inside the tank. That was the only problem with that earier unit that occured. Other than that, it was a reliable and high quality unit.

Just out of curiosity, what was your water condition that required a 2175. Where are you located? I ask, because 3 out of 10 units in my area treat water over 100 grains per gallon(in addition to high iron). Actually there are few areas where a 2175 is needed. Do you know what disk it is on?

Has it provided good water so far?

Send me a PM if you need more info on your unit>>>


Andy Christensen, CWS-II

I had the water tested several different times by different people before I decided on a unit and it average about 85 gpg for hardness(calcium-magnesium) and iron was around 10 gpg. TDS was 1200 ppm. I live in Union County. My well is 185 feet deep and the untreated water comes out orange. I have a 20 inch, 25 micron sediment filter before reaching the softener tanks and that prefilter is thick with iron & other deposits in only a few weeks. I have a 4 bedroom home, 5 occupants, and there is a lot of water used on a daily basis. I probably could have gotten away with a smaller model Mach series but the cost difference was minimal, so I decided the bigger the better. The disk is a 5. The water quality has been great! I have zero complaints about the systems ability to provide great conditioned water, I just don't care for poor quality warranties!
Thanks for the feedback :)

Right. Your water is extreme but similar to what we have in NW Ohio. Union Co. I used to live in Russells Point and worked at TRC and Mad River MT Ski. I know the water is extreme there.

The next lower model would be the MACH 2100 and that would not work with your water. Take the hardness and iron (times four) and you have a 125 gpg total compensated hardness (TCH). There really should have been no choice. We sell and service Hague (too) and believe me a Hague (packed bed) would have failed poorly by now and we replace Culligan units all the time with what you have.

Kinetico's warranty is still better. Hague has a 25 year warranty on some aparts. Culligan has a one-year warranty on all parts and five-year on the 'valve body" excluding internal parts one most units.

Rainsoft has a so-called "lifetime" warranty but you can read up on how often that happens. All companies still charge for labor but many companies don't even provide it in writing like you had.

Actually, being in the business, I see a $139 charge is very reasonable as your only bill in all these years. You have a very good system and the results are evidence. You were shocked by thinking it was a no-charge visit so I understand your disappointment.

Are you using an iron salt or iron out? The twin-tank design is your water requires, but still there will be challenges. Your iron will assault the resins so keep them clean as long a spossible.

There are iron filters that can be placed ahead of the softener which will protect the softener and reduce salt use considerably.

In your first post, you said you were searching the net for complaints of other Kinetico owners with similar complaints as yours. Did you find many?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

I was specifically looking for complaints about repairs/warranty items. I found 4 with the Central Ohio BBB. All were resolved. I’m well aware that Kinetico is a good company and they make a good product but they, as all other manufacturers should, stand behind their product COMPLETELY. If you sell a product and one of your selling points is that it carries a 7 or 10 year warranty, than that is exactly what is should be, without acception. This practice of not including labor costs, which is clearly the highest portion of any repair, and/or hiding excluded items within small print is ridiculous and unreasonable. Someone like yourself who services/repairs these products I am sure $139 labor cost seems quite reasonable, however, as a consumer I assure you it is not. I appreciate your input, you a clearly very knowledgeable in this area, but there is no way you are going to be able to convince me that the $139 I spent the other day was reasonable, especially not when I had originally given them near $1,500 to stand by their product. Enough about that, I’ll take up my complaint with the local office & then corporate if necessary.

I am curious about this iron filter that is placed before the softener system? I currently use Sure Soft mini cub salt with Rust Buster. About 200 lbs per month. Any suggestions?

I have been researching the Kinetico K-5 drinking water station online. I noticed that it is very difficult to find pricing of the system so I called my local dealer. I was quoted a price of $1595 for the K-5 Drinking Water Station, or $6750 if I do the Kinetico 4040 whole house system with the K-5 included. Does anybody know if this pricing seems reasonable? Is pricing negotiable on these units with a dealer? Just curious to see what others have paid, or if you happen to know what the actual dealer cost is. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!