Flooring Tile - Redoing bathroom tile?
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zbig555z
03-15-09, 06:11 PM
Hello: I am attempting to fix a small tile floor (30 ft
sq) in a bathroom that has had some reccuring issues.
The contractor has redone the grout 3 times but it
continues to crack and come out a few months after it has
been redone. Given that I own a renovated older home I
suspect there is some flex in the sub floor and it is
causing the problem. I have removed two of the tiles and
found that they have been weakly attached to hardy backer
board using thin set.
My question is, Once I remove the existing tile and remove
as much of the thin set as I can can I begin the re-tiling
process on the existing hardy backer or do I need to pull
it up and start from fresh underlay? I really hope I don;t
have to pull it up...
I was planning on the following approach:
1) Remove all tile and as much thin set as possible.
2) Level the underlay using a leveling compound.
3) Use a latex modified thin set to attach an additional
Ditra underlay.
4) Use a latex modified thin set to attach the tiles to the
Ditra.
5) Grout and finish.
I would very much appreciate any thoughts you might have...
sq) in a bathroom that has had some reccuring issues.
The contractor has redone the grout 3 times but it
continues to crack and come out a few months after it has
been redone. Given that I own a renovated older home I
suspect there is some flex in the sub floor and it is
causing the problem. I have removed two of the tiles and
found that they have been weakly attached to hardy backer
board using thin set.
My question is, Once I remove the existing tile and remove
as much of the thin set as I can can I begin the re-tiling
process on the existing hardy backer or do I need to pull
it up and start from fresh underlay? I really hope I don;t
have to pull it up...
I was planning on the following approach:
1) Remove all tile and as much thin set as possible.
2) Level the underlay using a leveling compound.
3) Use a latex modified thin set to attach an additional
Ditra underlay.
4) Use a latex modified thin set to attach the tiles to the
Ditra.
5) Grout and finish.
I would very much appreciate any thoughts you might have...
HotinOKC
03-15-09, 06:20 PM
Hi!
I understand your issue, and you do have a flexing issue within the subfloor. Removing the tile and just reinstalling will not fix the problem.
You need to determine your subfloor thickness, joist sizes, joist spacing, and unsupported span. With all these #'s, we can tell you how to proceed to make sure your installation lasts.
I understand your issue, and you do have a flexing issue within the subfloor. Removing the tile and just reinstalling will not fix the problem.
You need to determine your subfloor thickness, joist sizes, joist spacing, and unsupported span. With all these #'s, we can tell you how to proceed to make sure your installation lasts.
zbig555z
03-15-09, 06:31 PM
Hmmm - Cannot really get those #'s unless I tear up the floor which is what I'm really trying to avoid...
Doesn't the Ditra underlay (Schluter-DITRA - Schluter-Systems (http://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspx)) compensate for the flex in the sub floor? I was also planning to use a grout with a flexible grout additive...
Thanks in advance!
Doesn't the Ditra underlay (Schluter-DITRA - Schluter-Systems (http://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspx)) compensate for the flex in the sub floor? I was also planning to use a grout with a flexible grout additive...
Thanks in advance!
HotinOKC
03-15-09, 06:39 PM
Ditra is good stuff, but it's not a miracle worker. If this contractor has had to repair this 3 times already, it's got to have some bad flex.
Ditra is expensive too, about $83 for 54sqft. You could probably beef up the joists and replace the plywood for that price or less.
It's your call. If you are determined not to pull up the existing floor, then get a really good thinset, like Flexbond from HD, or Mapei Ultraflex from Lowes, but the weakess point of the installation is the grout joint. An epoxy grout might be more forgiving, but you would have to remove all the existing grout.
Ditra is expensive too, about $83 for 54sqft. You could probably beef up the joists and replace the plywood for that price or less.
It's your call. If you are determined not to pull up the existing floor, then get a really good thinset, like Flexbond from HD, or Mapei Ultraflex from Lowes, but the weakess point of the installation is the grout joint. An epoxy grout might be more forgiving, but you would have to remove all the existing grout.
zbig555z
03-15-09, 07:33 PM
thanks for all the input!
I might add that the contractor is 100% incompetent (Turned out to be a bunch of polish drunks) who I actually had to throw out of my home. I'd sue them but you can't get blood from a stone right? Anyhow...
I am not an expert by any means but I do a lot of home projects and I am sure I can do a better job than those guys.
I've taken an in-depth look at the floor for flex and it really doesn't look bad at all. It looks more like they did not apply the thin set properly. It did not extend to the corners of the tile etc...
Hopefully I won't find a real mess when I remove the existing tile.
Wish me luck! Beer 4U2
I might add that the contractor is 100% incompetent (Turned out to be a bunch of polish drunks) who I actually had to throw out of my home. I'd sue them but you can't get blood from a stone right? Anyhow...
I am not an expert by any means but I do a lot of home projects and I am sure I can do a better job than those guys.
I've taken an in-depth look at the floor for flex and it really doesn't look bad at all. It looks more like they did not apply the thin set properly. It did not extend to the corners of the tile etc...
Hopefully I won't find a real mess when I remove the existing tile.
Wish me luck! Beer 4U2
JazMan
03-15-09, 10:04 PM
Who the heck hired that guy anyway? I guess you got a 'deal'? Oh, never mind. :D
Since you now know he/they are incompetent, do you think they set the Hardie into flesh thinset just before fastening? Did they re-screw the subfloor first?
What thinset did they use? Spread with what trowel? more details will help us help you better. Plus you still should find all those #'s Mark axed of you.:D
BTW, you've got the thinset over Ditra wrong.
Jaz
Since you now know he/they are incompetent, do you think they set the Hardie into flesh thinset just before fastening? Did they re-screw the subfloor first?
What thinset did they use? Spread with what trowel? more details will help us help you better. Plus you still should find all those #'s Mark axed of you.:D
BTW, you've got the thinset over Ditra wrong.
Jaz
HeresJohnny
03-16-09, 07:12 AM
Before you go any further, you have to get the answers to the questions asked above. If you have vertical (up and down) movement in the floor, ditra or any other membrane will do nothing to correct that. Your joist structure and subfloor must be adequate to support a tile installation before you can use ditra. Membranes isolate the tile from horizontal subfloor movement only.
As to joist spacing, you can observe the nail patterns on the ceiling below or on the subfloor to determine oc spacing. As to unsupported span, that can be done from down stairs as well. How long is the span between wall supports? As to size of joists, drill a small hole in the floor and poke something in the hole until it hits the drywall below, mark it and measure it, subtracting off the thickness of the subfloor and underlayment. Using the same hole, you can determine the subfloor type and thickness. If you go ahead and redo this project without finding out for sure why it failed, you may very well end up doing it a third time.:(
As to joist spacing, you can observe the nail patterns on the ceiling below or on the subfloor to determine oc spacing. As to unsupported span, that can be done from down stairs as well. How long is the span between wall supports? As to size of joists, drill a small hole in the floor and poke something in the hole until it hits the drywall below, mark it and measure it, subtracting off the thickness of the subfloor and underlayment. Using the same hole, you can determine the subfloor type and thickness. If you go ahead and redo this project without finding out for sure why it failed, you may very well end up doing it a third time.:(