Flooring Tile - First Timer: Travertine Installation in Bathroom Questions
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phaddix
03-12-09, 08:11 AM
This forum has been extremely helpful in preparing for my first installation of tile. I have a few questions before I begin work but first let me list the specs.
The house is relatively new construction, built in 2004. The area where we are planning to install the travertine is the master bathroom located on the second floor of the home. The bathroom is approximately 50 sq ft with a separate toilet room that is an additional 15 sq ft.
The flooring joists in our home are set 17" apart and the unsupported span of the joists is approximately 16 ft. (joist thickness is 14" if that matters.) Subfloor is 1" thick OSB.
Currently the floor is resilient vinyl glued over a layer of 1/8" luan. I will be removing the vinyl along with the luan before installing the travertine. There is no door between the bathroom and the bedroom so I will be making a carpet to tile transition.
The travertine I have chosen is 1/8" thick 12x12 tiles - tiles have been honed and filled. I would like to install the tile with a 1/16" grout line if possible.
My questions are:
1. What is the proper underlayment for such an installation. Would a 1/8" cement backerboard suffice or will I need a 1/2"? I would like to keep the height difference between the carpet and tile to a minimum if possible.
2. What is the best way to transition from carpet to tile. Currently a metal transition strip is used between the carpet and vinyl. I will be removing this along with the vinyl and am wondering the best approach to a new transition. I have read that you can fold the carpet under or use wood shims under the carpet to slightly raise the height and I am wondering if this is a feasible option. I will be extending the tile approximately 1" past the current vinyl so I do have some additional carpet to play with.
Sorry for the long first post - hopefully I have included enough information to get some initial feedback. Please let me know if there is anything else you need or possible obstacles I may not be considering. Thanks so much!
The house is relatively new construction, built in 2004. The area where we are planning to install the travertine is the master bathroom located on the second floor of the home. The bathroom is approximately 50 sq ft with a separate toilet room that is an additional 15 sq ft.
The flooring joists in our home are set 17" apart and the unsupported span of the joists is approximately 16 ft. (joist thickness is 14" if that matters.) Subfloor is 1" thick OSB.
Currently the floor is resilient vinyl glued over a layer of 1/8" luan. I will be removing the vinyl along with the luan before installing the travertine. There is no door between the bathroom and the bedroom so I will be making a carpet to tile transition.
The travertine I have chosen is 1/8" thick 12x12 tiles - tiles have been honed and filled. I would like to install the tile with a 1/16" grout line if possible.
My questions are:
1. What is the proper underlayment for such an installation. Would a 1/8" cement backerboard suffice or will I need a 1/2"? I would like to keep the height difference between the carpet and tile to a minimum if possible.
2. What is the best way to transition from carpet to tile. Currently a metal transition strip is used between the carpet and vinyl. I will be removing this along with the vinyl and am wondering the best approach to a new transition. I have read that you can fold the carpet under or use wood shims under the carpet to slightly raise the height and I am wondering if this is a feasible option. I will be extending the tile approximately 1" past the current vinyl so I do have some additional carpet to play with.
Sorry for the long first post - hopefully I have included enough information to get some initial feedback. Please let me know if there is anything else you need or possible obstacles I may not be considering. Thanks so much!
HeresJohnny
03-12-09, 08:36 AM
The flooring joists in our home are set 17" apart and the unsupported span of the joists is approximately 16 ft. (joist thickness is 14" if that matters.) Subfloor is 1" thick OSB.
What kind of joists do you have their? Are they trusses, i-joists? When you say they are 17" apart, most likely, they are 19.2" on center (from center to center), yes? You need to find out info about your joists to make sure they meet l720 deflection for natural stone? Most likely they are l480. Find the markings on the joists and contact the manufacturer to see if you meet the required deflection. All natural stone installations require 2 layers of plywood or osb totalling minimum of 1 1/8".
Currently the floor is resilient vinyl glued over a layer of 1/8" luan.
Most likely, the luan is 1/4".
The travertine I have chosen is 1/8" thick 12x12 tiles - tiles have been honed and filled. I would like to install the tile with a 1/16" grout line if possible.
Is the travertine really 1/8" thick? I hope not. How small you can make the grout joint will depend on how flat your floor is and how good your setting skills are. A more realistic goal would be 1/8" grout joints.
1. What is the proper underlayment for such an installation. Would a 1/8" cement backerboard suffice or will I need a 1/2"? I would like to keep the height difference between the carpet and tile to a minimum if possible.
Ok whats with the 1/8" on everything. There is no such thing as 1/8" cement board. Again, I think you are meaning 1/4", yes. The thickness of the cement board wont make the floor any stronger, your joists and subfloor/underlayment will do that, see above.
What is the best way to transition from carpet to tile. Currently a metal transition strip is used between the carpet and vinyl. I will be removing this along with the vinyl and am wondering the best approach to a new transition. I have read that you can fold the carpet under or use wood shims under the carpet to slightly raise the height and I am wondering if this is a feasible option. I will be extending the tile approximately 1" past the current vinyl so I do have some additional carpet to play with.
I think you may be a little ahead of yourself here. Tile, specially natural stone tile, has to have the proper floor structure, otherwise it will fail. It is not practical or feasible to expect that there will not be some stepup height transition here. Once you know the exact height, a transition solution can be had.
Have you already purchased your travertine tile? If not, an easier solution would be to find a travertine porcelain lookalike tile. It does not require as stiff a joist system as natural stone.:)
What kind of joists do you have their? Are they trusses, i-joists? When you say they are 17" apart, most likely, they are 19.2" on center (from center to center), yes? You need to find out info about your joists to make sure they meet l720 deflection for natural stone? Most likely they are l480. Find the markings on the joists and contact the manufacturer to see if you meet the required deflection. All natural stone installations require 2 layers of plywood or osb totalling minimum of 1 1/8".
Currently the floor is resilient vinyl glued over a layer of 1/8" luan.
Most likely, the luan is 1/4".
The travertine I have chosen is 1/8" thick 12x12 tiles - tiles have been honed and filled. I would like to install the tile with a 1/16" grout line if possible.
Is the travertine really 1/8" thick? I hope not. How small you can make the grout joint will depend on how flat your floor is and how good your setting skills are. A more realistic goal would be 1/8" grout joints.
1. What is the proper underlayment for such an installation. Would a 1/8" cement backerboard suffice or will I need a 1/2"? I would like to keep the height difference between the carpet and tile to a minimum if possible.
Ok whats with the 1/8" on everything. There is no such thing as 1/8" cement board. Again, I think you are meaning 1/4", yes. The thickness of the cement board wont make the floor any stronger, your joists and subfloor/underlayment will do that, see above.
What is the best way to transition from carpet to tile. Currently a metal transition strip is used between the carpet and vinyl. I will be removing this along with the vinyl and am wondering the best approach to a new transition. I have read that you can fold the carpet under or use wood shims under the carpet to slightly raise the height and I am wondering if this is a feasible option. I will be extending the tile approximately 1" past the current vinyl so I do have some additional carpet to play with.
I think you may be a little ahead of yourself here. Tile, specially natural stone tile, has to have the proper floor structure, otherwise it will fail. It is not practical or feasible to expect that there will not be some stepup height transition here. Once you know the exact height, a transition solution can be had.
Have you already purchased your travertine tile? If not, an easier solution would be to find a travertine porcelain lookalike tile. It does not require as stiff a joist system as natural stone.:)
phaddix
03-12-09, 09:27 AM
Johnny,
Thanks for all of the info - I have gone back and remeasured and this is what I have come up with.
The joists are indeed 19" (19.2") on center. They are an I-Beam model. The specific joists are TJI - 210 14" depth. There is a table listing deflection here (http://www.kentinternational.ca/brochures/Timberframe_System/TJI.pdf) but I don't know if I am correctly understanding the associated deflection table. From the table it looks like they meet are L480 deflection rated for a 40 psf live load / 20 psf dead load.
You were also right about the luan (1/4" rather than 1/8") and the Travertine (3/8" rather than 1/8").
I have already purchased the travertine, though it can be returned if need be. We have looked at several different tile retailers, both big box and specialty here in town (Co. Springs). While we saw the porcelain look alikes we did not love any of them. For me there is just something about the look of a natural surface that a faux surface simply cannot match (I am the same way when it comes to laminate vs. hardwood).
I suppose if we found something we loved we could go that direction especially if it was easier from a cost / installation standpoint but at this point we are leaning heavily to the travertine.
If I understood your last post correctly. If the above stats are accurate and deflection is L480 I would be looking at the following in terms of installation:
1. Remove vinyl and luan, prep subfloor.
2. Add 1/8" layer of plywood / underlayment for support
3. Add 1/4" layer of cement board
4. Tile 3/8" thick (plus whatever thickness results from thinset etc.)
If that is true the step up height would seem to be about 1/2" or so.
Am I figuring this correctly?
Thanks for all of the info - I have gone back and remeasured and this is what I have come up with.
The joists are indeed 19" (19.2") on center. They are an I-Beam model. The specific joists are TJI - 210 14" depth. There is a table listing deflection here (http://www.kentinternational.ca/brochures/Timberframe_System/TJI.pdf) but I don't know if I am correctly understanding the associated deflection table. From the table it looks like they meet are L480 deflection rated for a 40 psf live load / 20 psf dead load.
You were also right about the luan (1/4" rather than 1/8") and the Travertine (3/8" rather than 1/8").
I have already purchased the travertine, though it can be returned if need be. We have looked at several different tile retailers, both big box and specialty here in town (Co. Springs). While we saw the porcelain look alikes we did not love any of them. For me there is just something about the look of a natural surface that a faux surface simply cannot match (I am the same way when it comes to laminate vs. hardwood).
I suppose if we found something we loved we could go that direction especially if it was easier from a cost / installation standpoint but at this point we are leaning heavily to the travertine.
If I understood your last post correctly. If the above stats are accurate and deflection is L480 I would be looking at the following in terms of installation:
1. Remove vinyl and luan, prep subfloor.
2. Add 1/8" layer of plywood / underlayment for support
3. Add 1/4" layer of cement board
4. Tile 3/8" thick (plus whatever thickness results from thinset etc.)
If that is true the step up height would seem to be about 1/2" or so.
Am I figuring this correctly?
HeresJohnny
03-12-09, 01:25 PM
You need to find out info about your joists to make sure they meet l720 deflection for natural stone? Most likely they are l480.
This is what I wrote above. You need l720 and you dont have that. Thats the main reason I suggested the porcelain, it needs on l360. I'll assume that since this is on the second floor, you dont have access to do anything to make the floor stiffer. In my opinion, natural stone is a no go.:(
1. Remove vinyl and luan, prep subfloor.
2. Add 1/8" layer of plywood / underlayment for support
3. Add 1/4" layer of cement board
4. Tile 3/8" thick (plus whatever thickness results from thinset etc.)
You have to remove the vinyl and luan.
You would have to add minimum of 3/8" plywood underlayment. Nothing thinner than 3/8" can be used in a tile installation.
You cannot use cement board over joists spaced more than 16" on center. You will have to use an approved isolation membrane instead. Schluter Ditra is an example.
This is what I wrote above. You need l720 and you dont have that. Thats the main reason I suggested the porcelain, it needs on l360. I'll assume that since this is on the second floor, you dont have access to do anything to make the floor stiffer. In my opinion, natural stone is a no go.:(
1. Remove vinyl and luan, prep subfloor.
2. Add 1/8" layer of plywood / underlayment for support
3. Add 1/4" layer of cement board
4. Tile 3/8" thick (plus whatever thickness results from thinset etc.)
You have to remove the vinyl and luan.
You would have to add minimum of 3/8" plywood underlayment. Nothing thinner than 3/8" can be used in a tile installation.
You cannot use cement board over joists spaced more than 16" on center. You will have to use an approved isolation membrane instead. Schluter Ditra is an example.
Goldyfarbs
03-13-09, 11:43 AM
I am confused as well.. Sorry to high jack the thread as well, but I am about to install Natural stone on my floor with travertine as well.
Can you explain to me the joists please...I am a little confused about that.
Also, one more thing.. Explain to me why I can't put hardiBacker board on a floor that has 16" greater joists.. I am a new DIY'er as well.. Just interested.
Can you explain to me the joists please...I am a little confused about that.
Also, one more thing.. Explain to me why I can't put hardiBacker board on a floor that has 16" greater joists.. I am a new DIY'er as well.. Just interested.
HotinOKC
03-13-09, 04:00 PM
Can you explain to me the joists please...I am a little confused about that.
Your floor joists deflect under load, ie. they flex downward. Joist sizes are need to ensure your floor is strong enought to handle tile, which can easily crack if flexed.If you have a weak joist structure, your tile floor has a higher probability of failing.
Explain to me why I can't put hardiBacker board on a floor that has 16" greater joists..
Because the manufacturer says so. This is how they tested the product to ensure a long lasting installation.
Your floor joists deflect under load, ie. they flex downward. Joist sizes are need to ensure your floor is strong enought to handle tile, which can easily crack if flexed.If you have a weak joist structure, your tile floor has a higher probability of failing.
Explain to me why I can't put hardiBacker board on a floor that has 16" greater joists..
Because the manufacturer says so. This is how they tested the product to ensure a long lasting installation.