Flooring Tile - Replacing kitchen parque floors with tile

Hey all.

I'm in the process of renovating my kitchen and decided to do the floor as well. The prev owner had 6" parque wood tiles down and we'd like to go with ceramic. It appears the tiles are laid over linoleum floor (and it seems like some kind of MDF substance under the radiator). Both are glued down with some dark brown adhesive.

What's the process from here with regards to preparing the floor for the cementboard? How much of the glue do I need to get up?

Below is the picture of the area I pulled up to see what it looks like. You can see all the dark brown which is the adhesive. Some of the stuff pulled up under the radiator is some kind of MDF tile that the wood parque was attached to.

Just an FYI: The house was built in the mid 1950s

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/photo.jpg

Thanks,

Fish

You need to remove the parquet floor, the vinyl and the mdf/particle board underlayment. Then tell us what you have left for a subfloor, how many layers and the thickness of each layer.

You need to remove the parquet floor, the vinyl and the mdf/particle board underlayment. Then tell us what you have left for a subfloor, how many layers and the thickness of each layer.

Will do. I just updated my post with an image (above) but will try to go further now to see whats goin on. Thx.

Hey there.

So I dug a little deeper (literally). There appears to be 2 layers of old flooring on the floor. So it appears to be:

Parque Wood Tiles
Linoleum or Vinyl Rolled Flooring (white)
Linoleum or Vinyl Rolled Flooring (reddish)

Below that (or part of the red flooring) is a layer that looks like tarpaper of somekind (does that make sense)? Hopefully not asbestos :)

Then I hit wood and looking at the grain it doesn't seem to be the tongue & groove sub-floor that diagonally runs the length of my house (seen from basement utility room underneath kitchen). So probably a layer a plywood (not sure how thick)

When chopping I can see that it will be hard to get the reddish floor up without damaging the ply.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Oops, I left out some important information

T&G boards are 3/4" thick with a layer of Ply that is about 3/4 to 1" thick over it. Hard to tell for sure without drilling.

The subfloor is over 2x8 joists spaced 16" apart.

Thanks!

If the ply is 3/4-1", thats a good thing.

Do you happen to know the unsupported span of those joists? By that I mean, the distance each joist spans before it is supported by a post, wall, foundation, etc underneith.

Having scratches and gouges on the ply isn't a major concern.

Hey Mark,
May I feel like you answer all my question :) Thanks again for the response.

The kitchen is about 14x12. The 12' is the direction of the joists. So the unsupported span is 12' I believe.

I cant seem to figure out if their is a 3rd layer of flooring. The red layer(3/32" thick) and the layer (1/16") below that has tar-ish substance on the bottom may be one layer or 2 different layers.

In all seriousness, what would asbestos look like if I should be concerned about it.

Thx

Fish

When was this house built?

Asbestos has not been used since the 60's, and even abaiting it now is not a major concern.

It takes a huge amount of exposure of asbestos to have health affects. I would tear all the flooring up at once. Take a circular saw and cut it into sections.

The kitchen is about 14x12. The 12' is the direction of the joists. So the unsupported span is 12' I believe.

Not neccessarily. Those same joists that run through the kitchen may run into another room.

If your unsupported span is truly 12', that is not good. Your floor deflects to much which would cause your tile to fail.

What does this all mean? Well, to have a long lasting installation, I would:

a. Add supports to your joists to shorten the unsupported span

b. sister your floor joists

House was built in 1952. I'm not sure I can remove it all at once, the bottom layer seems very brittle.

I just went down to the basement... It's actually an 11 feet span between the the 2 foundation walls. I can't add supports down there because that room will probaby be converted into an office in a few years. (Oh I can just imagine the noise from the kids toys while playing on the kitchen floor. :) )

I could sister the joists though I'd have to remove the cross braces (2 short pieces of wood that form an X between the joists) at about the midpoint of the span.

If the deflection is a concern, we were throwing around the idea of doing hardwood flooring to match the rest of the house, though I think being so high traffic it would get mess up quickly. We also have a dark stain on our wood floors which shows scuffs easily.

Thx again

Also, would I have to sister up every joist or could I get away with doing every other one.

When a BX line is passing through a joist, can I notch the sister joist to fit the new board in next to the other one? or do I have to remove the bx line. (may be a problem if it runs up the wall.

Thanks again

Dave

You can knotch it. If you choose to go this route, use good construction adhesive and nails/screws.

Thx. So even at 11ft span (not 12) its still to big of a distance for 2x8s?

And just to follow up, I'd have to do each one I guess, right?

Thx

Dave

11' span will work for ceramic or porcelain tile without any joist modifications.

Oh man. thats good news. that saves me a lot of trouble. Would it be a good idea to maybe sister up a few of them maybe every 3 or so just to be safe? or does that not make a difference?

So basically same drill as my bathroom renovation. Get the floor as flat as possible and screw in 1/4" cementboard, offset seams, patch seams, lay tile, right? Do I need to worry about how clean I can get the floor. seems that layer of plywood is going tough to get clean b/c of what seems to be a layer of tarpaper of some kind. IS that possible?

Thx

Fish

Man.... you know what. I just went down and remeasured the distance again. It turns out that I had measured the distance between the 2 walls when in actuality there is a step outward at the top of each wall, making the span between supports 11' 7".

I'm assuming thats not good news :) What do you think.

Thanks again,

Dave

It's borderline.

Just because it's borderline, doesn't mean your tile WILL fail, just it has a higher chance. You also may never have a problem with it.

I would sister the joists just to be safe. Your main concern is the center portion of the joists, where most of the flexing can occur.

Thanks Mark,

Cant hurt to sister them I guess. Though it may be tough to get 11'7" boards in there around the gas and water lines. Dumb question, but it does have to be the entire length, right? I can't attach in an 8' length in the middle, right?

Thx

Fish

You can attach 8' centered on the joist and it will definetly help.

Interesting. I'll try to get 11' lengths in there, but will cut them down if they don't fit.

Will report back how this goes in a few days. Thanks so much.

Dave

Good luck Dave! Chime back in with your questions.

I started tearing up the floor today. The parque and first layer of linoleum come up very easily. Its like its not even stuck to the second layer of linoleum.

The second layer is really adhered to the plywood and is very brittle. (see attached pics). Is it possible to install the cement board on top of that thin layer of linoleum? Or do I spend the extra time and get it up. Have you ever come across a tar-like substance used as adhesive from houses built in the 50s?

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2267283.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2267286.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2267288.jpg

Thanks

Fish

The adhesive is very common, we often call it "cutback."

I would really like it if you removed it all, so you can determine the condition of your subfloor.

The cement backer board also needs to be laid in a bed of thinset AND scrwed. Many people, including the knuckle heads on those DIY shows, never do this.

Thanks Mark,

It seems 1/2 of kitchen 2nd layer of linoluem was glued to the first layer. I was just able tp pull it up for a while. now Its much harder. I guess I'll try to get that other layer off too.. its really on there and comes off in 2-3" pieces unfortunately. (edit: and its nailed down on top of that......ugh)

Yes I will most certainly be setting the cementboard with thinset and screws (same as my bathroom (http://forum.doityourself.com/designing-kitchens-bathrooms/343772-replacing-40-year-old-tile-new-ceramic-tile-wainscoting.html))


Dave

Your sisters dont have to go the full length. The middle 2/3 is all you need so 8' will be good. You can use 2x6's as well, and align them with the bottom of the existing joists. Use construction adhesive or full spread glue, and lots of screws or nails.

Remove all the lino and as much of the cutback as you can. The objective is to get the floor as flat as possible. You dont have to get it perfect, as the thinset that you bed the cement board in will give you some room for imperfection.

Asbestos wasnt banned until sometime in the 80's. If you are concerned that what you have could contain asbestos, keep in mind that its only a hazzard if its airborne. You can spay it with a mist bottle as you work to keep it from getting airborne. What you have there aint an easy task as you have already found out. Nice to see that you are doing it right though. Too many come here looking for short cuts that'll come back to bite em later.:)

bathroom (http://forum.doityourself.com/designing-kitchens-bathrooms/343772-replacing-40-year-old-tile-new-ceramic-tile-wainscoting.html))


Dave


Ah! I knew I've helped you before!

Thanks Johnny.

Yeah its definitely not an easy task. between the nails and the cutback Its next to impossible to get up. I pretty much got the parque and first lino up completely in less than a couple of hours. I'm going to be hacking at the 2nd layer for days.

Great news on the joists. Will be much easier to do 8' boards. Though, I also read that I can cut the 12' board in half and put them up tightly at where they meet. I'm surprised you said to align with the bottom of the joist. I would have thought the top. interesting. I plan on using nails and construction adhesive and some screws for sure.

Great news on the joists. Will be much easier to do 8' boards.

See post #18.:moonu:................................

See post #18.................................

LOL :) I know... I'm sorry. I didnt want to be rude :)

Thanks guys!

Do you guys have any tips to getting this layer off? Specific tools or tricks of the trade? Any help appreciated

Ugh.. So I got all the wood and upper lino up...

I'm not sure I have this in me. The bathroom renovation and tiling gave me carpel tunnel for 3 weeks... I woke up in the middle of the night with both my hands dead asleep... I can feel this project resulting in the same thing.

I spent 2 hrs trying to get up that layer of whatEverTheHellItIs and don't have much to show for it... wow.

So there is NO way to lay the cement board on this thin layer of whatever? I say whatever b/c I don't think its linoleum.. seems way to brittle to be. But its in these 6' wide sheets (see seam below) so I wonder if it was always brittle or if it slowly became that way over 60 years. It appears almost like an old tile material.

You can see from the first image below that even after removing that last layer in one spot that some of the cutback is on the plywood. Can I even lay the thinset on top of that material? Will it adhere?

here are some images of where I'm at: gonna go soak my wrists now :)

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2267293.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2267294.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2267295.jpg

Whats under this layer? If its a second layer of plywood or some other underlayment it should probably go anyway.

Basically what I have here (from the top down) after removing the parque and 2 layers of linoleum is

1 layer of lino or some other brittle sheets
Cutback Adhesive
Plywood
T&G Boards laid diagonal (across entire span of house)
Joists

I guess I could try to get the plywood up, but there are a lot of nails in the layer of lino that go through to the T&G. so its not gonna be easy.

I'm gonna go get a better mask from HD and maybe a pry-bar and see what I can do. I hope I can get the ply up without damaging the T&G boards.

Thanks

How thick is the plywood underlayment? If its only 1/4", it has to go no matter what. You should have a minimum of 1/2" plywood over t&g planking. 1/4" plywood is not stable enough under tile. If the plywood is at least 1/2", you can try to save it if you want.

Its 3/4 or possibly more actually. I think I mentioned that at the top of the thread. so if I didnt have to remove it that would be ideal. Any tips on removing this layer. My buddy mentioned the "tile Bully" and someone else mentioned using a 4" wallpaper blade.

Thx

My question still remains, even after I get up this layer, can I even lay the cementboard/thinset on that or will it not adhere with some of that cutback material still engrained in the wood?

Me again :)

I didnt have much luck finding the Tile Bully so I got a scraper and a pry bar and have been hacking away for the past our. below is what the plywood subfloor is looking like. Before I go further, I'd love to get your thoughts on whether this is an acceptable service for laying the cementboard wtih thinset.

I found a product for helping me remove more of the cutback, its called JASCO sealer and adhesive removal. It says its for cutback on it. I assume this will help but not sure how much.

What do you think of the condition of the flooring below. You can see how small these piece are coming up... its a real bear. Thanks again for the help guys.

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2277296.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2277297.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P2277298.jpg

You should be ok with what you have there. When you are done removing the lino and adhesive, refasten the plywood sheets to the plank flooring below. Use screws every eight inches in the filed and every 6" at the edges. Also make sure that the planks are fastened well to the floor joists. You want everything to be solid, no squeeks of loose boards.

Keep in mind that the thinset under the cement board is not to bond the cement board to the plywood. The screws or nails do that. The thinset is to fill any voids that may exist between the cement board and plywood so that there are no voids that can cause vertical (up and down) movement. The thinset will compensate for minor imperfections in the plywood and a little leftover adhesive. No big deal.:)

Just some encouragement, looks like you are finally getting somewhere with the removal.:)

Ok that is very promising.. thanks for that info... good to hear I don't have to rip this ply out.

Gonna go back to the grind... oh am I gonna be hurting after this..

Take the night off, sit back and have a couple of cold ones. Youve earned it.Beer 4U2

Ha thanks... I'm actually on vacation next week. so I'm workin on this over the weekend and heading out late sunday.

Question.. if their isnt much of a concern about adhesion, and if this last layer is SO on their and so solid/brittle, <graspingAtStraws>why can't I just install over it?</graspingAtStraws>

Unlike the plywood, the lino has some cushion in it and therefore, up and down movement.

yeah thats why I was asking because this stuff is not plyable like the 2 other layers...Its brittle and solid. doesnt seem to have any cushion, no more than wood might have.

Hey guys, quick question,

I'm on vacation and have developed quite a rash mainly on my arms and legs. I'm extremely itchy and its driving me crazy.

Can you think of anything that I've been doing that could have caused this. Aside from working on tearing up my floor, I've also worked in my attic the week prior to starting the floor. I installing some recessed lighting and was crawling around up there for a few days getting things worked out. I wore a standard mask (I hadn't gotten the good scrubber mask till I started the floor).

I thought it might be from the insulation, but It was over a week ago I was up there.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Fish

Have you been using any chemicals?

Any mold?

Other then that, don't see anything obvious with the task you are doing that can cause that.

No, I didnt use any chemicals. Like 3 weeks ago I used TSP on the walls before sanding and painting them but I wore gloves for that.

I don't believe there was any mold as far as I can see.

very strange.

thx for the reply though

Could be the insulation, happens to me all the time. If you are concerned that it might be something else, its a good idea to see a doctor.

Now on to the more important subject. Did you get all the lino up yet?:D

Its weird that it would be the insulation. I haven't been in the attic in over a week. Its super itchy and its like single pore blisters. I have pretty sensitive skin so that doesnt help.

Anyway. I spent ALL day on Saturday taking the floor up.. 1sq in at a time. Absolutely brutal. I forged through and thought I may actually finish.. but alas.. 10 hrs later, I still have a little less than 1/4 left... Sunday I woke up and couldn't even look at it. So i packed my bags and left for the week.

I'm not even sure a week is enough time away from it before I start again, so I may see if I can find someone to finish it. It is THAT bad. I probably should have just left that layer down. It is only 3mm thin with the cutback and doesnt have any elasticity to it. I despise that 3mm. :mad:

Just a quick update on my progress...

Finished tearing up the floor. I did about 3/4 my self but didnt have the rest in me. I got some guy of craigslist to come and tear the rest up... it took him 5 hrs. Nice dude.

I sistered the joists with 8 foot 2x6s... glued and nailed and screwed together. I couldnt get anythign longer in there. it was tight. I hope it helped, but hopefully between that, the cementboard and tile it will tighten up.

The tile I installed is 18" Porcelain tile. Nice stuff but damn big. I rented a monster tile cutter (after learning my lesson installing my bathroom tile). I rented a MKDiamond 212 cutter. Freaking awesome. I installed all the full pieces on saturday in a few hrs and spent all day sunday (12 hrs) cutting the tile for the perimeter. Took me longer than I thought but I installed on an angle (diamond) so there were some tough cuts to work out. It was pretty messy installing the cuts the second day. I had thinset all over me :) Much messier than day one... that was easy.

Gonna clean the tile and grout on wednesday I hope... after my back and knees recover..

Pics to come... thanks again...

Tired and beaten,

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for reporting back! How's the rash? ;)

also....

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h178/normanmj/worthless.gif

Sound like you made some good progress. Looking forward to the pictures.

Don't be discouraged by the amount of time its taking you. Its your house, and this is no race.:thumbup:

Thanks guys. Rash is better :) But still not gone. its a doooozy! Whatever I was allergic to really got in my system.

Will post pics after setting the grout.

Dave

GROUTED... FINALLY!!!!!


Here are a couple of pics from my grout job I finished last night. 18x18" Porcelain Tile from HD.

So happy this is finished and so happy with how it came out.

Thanks for ALL the help. You guys are the best! Gonna post again when the kitchen is painted and finished!

Dave

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P3277315.jpg

http://www.themediacouncil.com/forum_images/kitchen/P3277318.jpg

Dave

It looks great, nice job.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Soon you'll be able to go back to not having to eat out 7 nights a week.:D

Thanks Johnny... I'm really happy with it. and my wife loves it.
The past 2 months haven't been too bad.. We BBQed a lot figured out we can make pasta on the side burner of our grill :)

Now on to painting!

Excellent job Dave! .........................

Hey guys.. hope all is well.

Just wanted to share a few things... first off. I'm a dad. My wife and I had a baby girl last week. She's absolutely amazing. Also, I finished my concrete countertops just in time for her arrival!

It took about 3 weeks from pour to polish. I couldnt be happier with how they came out. They look fantastic! 20 linear feet for a few hundred bucks and a lot of sweat equity!

Thought I would share some pics:

http://fishilens.com/gallery/d/58283-1/P1000532.JPG

http://fishilens.com/gallery/d/58277-1/P1000527.JPG

http://fishilens.com/gallery/d/58274-2/P1000526.JPG

Thanks again for all the help!

Dave

The countertops look great. More important, congratulations on being a dad. There's nothing better than that.:thumbup:

fish....where did you get the instructions for the countertops? I think I'd like something like that for outside in the grilling pergola (when I start building it, after it cools off!).

Oh...and the whole kitchen looks excellent. Probably wouldn't have cost more than $20K-25K to have it done...lol

Hey Guys. Thanks for the kind words.... A LOT of the info came from Tu-Fung Chengs book (http://www.amazon.com/Concrete-Countertops-Simple-Taunton-Press/dp/1561588822/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246983034&sr=8-1). (I have the old one (http://www.amazon.com/Concrete-Countertops-Design-Finishes-Kitchen/dp/1561584843/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246996936&sr=8-3))

His site (http://www.concreteexchange.com/) has some helpful stuff as well. I used a brown pigment from a local supply shop to give it the brown color.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Dave

Looks great Dave! Congrats on being a dad! I have two girls of my own and one more girl on the way.