Flooring Tile - mud bed for tile

Does any one do mud beds any more? I keep reading and hearing about ditra.

I know the old mud beds for a floor tile base are good for 70-80+ yrs. How long has ditra been around?

J. Bridge said he was introduced to it in 2002.

J Bridge said," I later approached the company's management with a scheme whereby they would subsidize the production of a new tile how-to book. In return I would cover the main Schluter products -- Kerdi and Ditra. Hmm:eek:

Mud buds are a lost skill for the most part.

With the economy the way it is, no customer wants to pay for the labor of a mud bed.

The customers expect good quality for dirt prices, which they will not get.

I happen that have a signed copy of JB's book, it is very informative, both with the installation of a mud bed, and Schluter products.

Ditra has been around since 1987, so it's been out there for some time, but no one really knows about it still, even some tile setters.

A mud bed is still superior to Ditra, but Ditra is also a good investment.

There are still many mud-jobs done in certain parts of the country. Problem is that only a few are done correctly, especially floors.

Years ago, builders lowered the subfloor in the area where tile was to be installed using the mud method. In today's "open concept" home design, that is not possible to do without taking other steps which would add thousands in cost to the homeowner. So tile setters are forced to install thinner setting beds of mud so that they don't create a large step at transitions to adjoining rooms covered with other floor coverings.

Where years ago the mud was well over an inch and sometimes about 2" thick, today many tile setter cheat and make the mortar bed much thinner. I have talked to some tile setters that believe "anything over 5/8" is a waste". What! :eek: That isn't going to work very well. No wonder many homeowners go with hardwood.:wall:

CBU's and membranes such as Ditra or products from Noble are being used in response to the above bad tilling techniques. I have used Ditra for maybe 10 years (?) and can tell you it is the best thing since sliced bread, as they say.:thumbup:

As for JB's arrangement with Schluter, what do you find wrong with it? He realized how good the products were and wanted to write a book about their uses. Have you found anything he claims that is not true? I don't know since I haven't read his books and have no plans of doing so. I believe both products are great, especially the Kerdi Membrane Drain method. That is the only way showers should be built! :thumbup::D

Jaz

Thanks for the input.:thumbup:
I didn't know ditra was introduced in 87 OKC. I have never used it. It just doesn't seem right putting a piece of plastic under a tile set.
I agree with the rest of your post, especially the part about customers not wanting to pay the cost to have it done right.

Jaz, I was referring to the older type of mud bed 3"-6" thick, where there is no wood sub floor on top of the joists. You drop into the joist cavity and put in 1 by horizontal to the joists and start filling with crete then near the top switch over to mortar. That method allows for making the tile even with any other flooring. There is much more to it then that, but just to let you know what I was referring to.:D

"As for JB's arrangement with Schluter, what do you find wrong with it? He realized how good the products were and wanted to write a book about their uses. Have you found anything he claims that is not true?"

The use of the word scheme and all that it implies. No, but I have not read his books either. :)

Bump.

So how many of you actually do real mud bed sets? and I'm not talking about 1/2" - 1.5" beds on top of sub floor. You might as well put plastic under it with that thin of a base.;)

I'm talking about a real bed( 3-6") recessed into the joists.:thumbup:

I just did one using the method suggested highly by one of our tile guys, HeresJohnny, from Ontario tile. Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb. (http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html)
It looks formidable, but really wasn't all that bad, and using the moist, not slurry base material I was able to pack in a slope from the beginning. It is not recessed into the joists, but stopped by blocks, but really made a solid place for my tile.

Thanks for the response!:thumbup:

I looked at the link you provided. That appears to be one of the better short term ( 20 yrs or less) install methods I have seen.
I do those fairly often.

I guess all these short term methods are in tune with society today. Who stays in a home for 40-50yrs today. So a person has to ask, do I charge them 18K for an install that will last 70+ yrs and not get the job, or charge 8k for a short term install and get the job.

Any way I'm still waiting for some replies from people that do real mud beds? :)

:rolleyes:That appears to be one of the better short term ( 20 yrs or less) install methods I have seen.

Desert Eagle, is this your opinion or do you have tests and facts to back this up. I'm not buying your 20 year comment. I've built many a shower pans this way, have never had a problem with this type pan, and have no doubt they will be around for more than 20 years.

a person has to ask, do I charge them 18K for an install that will last 70+ yrs and not get the job, or charge 8k for a short term install and get the job.

So tell me, what is your 70+ year method?

As to price, its rather simple, materials, labor and overhead. Price it to low and you won't make any money, price it to high and you won't get the job. Do good work at a fair price and you will get plenty of referrals, there is no better advertising.

What you are calling a mud bed with 3" to 6" of mud in a depressed flooring system is no longer done by anyone that I know. Today, a mudbed over a wood subfloor consists of 1 1/4" to 2" of deck mud over a cleavage membrane and 2.5lb lath nailed or stapled to the floor. As per TCNA, the mud should be 1 1/4" minimum to 2" maximum, that is the standard. You can still depress the floor between the joists on ledger strips if you like to keep the height down.

Most of my work these days is bathroom remodeling, and I seem to spend a lot of time demoing mud beds (not the mud beds you are talking about). Most times, I replace them with a new mud bed. My mud beds are typically 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" depending upon whats needed, most times dictated by an existing toilet flange, base board heat etc. Several reasons for this, for starters, I can get a good solid perfectly flat surface for the tile that you can't always get with cement board and membranes. Its also cheaper material wise and in my opinion doesnt take any longer than installing plywood, cement board or isolation membranes. Yeah its a little tougher on the back these days. In todays times, work is drying up and you look for ways to do the job right and still get paid for your work. I think mud beds are a good solution, and I know it'll stand the test of time as well. If I don't have pricing power on a job I'd rather get paid for my labor and skill than for using high tech membranes that cost a lot of money that doesnt go in my pocket. I'm not knocking isolation membranes, I just think they steal your profit on jobs in a weak market like now. And I don't feel I'm compromising the job at all with a mud bed.

I'd not assume that todays constructions methods are not as good as those of yester year. Today, we have modern testing that produces high tech underlayments, membranes, thinsets, grouts etc. that all make for a better job.:)

"is this your opinion or do you have tests and facts to back this up. I'm not buying your 20 year comment."

That is just my opinion. the current underlays have not been around long enough to see if they actually hold up for 20 yrs. They may have been introduced about 20 yrs ago but it takes about 5- 10 yrs for new products to become recognized by the masses.

"So tell me, what is your 70+ year method?" The one that was used 70 plus yrs ago!:)

"What you are calling a mud bed with 3" to 6" of mud in a depressed flooring system is no longer done by anyone that I know. "

Thank you for answering the question from your experience. :thumbup:

That link that was posted was for a mud bed installation. Do you know how long they've been building structures out of "mud"? Something like a million years, eh?

Shoot, I wouldn't want something to last 20 years, would you? Do you want to be looking at the same tile for 20 years? If it fails after 10 years, that gives you an excuse to catch up to the times, eh? These mud pan showers can last 20+ years easily just by the products used, aka dirt and cement, lol.

As I stated, I set tile with those methods in that link.
"Do you know how long they've been building structures out of "mud"?" Yes, but it was not set on 1-2" of base.

"I wouldn't want something to last 20 years, would you?"
Yes, the old bag I'm married to has lasted 20.;) I got an old Rockwell saw that is pushing 30.:thumbup:I have an old Bear bow that is over 20 that I still use.:D

"If it fails after 10 years, that gives you an excuse to catch up to the times, eh? "
I hear what your saying, keep the work flowing.:thumbup:

My original question was,"Does any one do mud beds any more? "

As I expected there were some replies to the quick and easy muds. HJ answered my question with his reply, "What you are calling a mud bed with 3" to 6" of mud in a depressed flooring system is no longer done by anyone that I know." :thumbup:

My thought is to be able to do that type of bed. You never know when you will meet a customer that wants a long term install. :)

I demo lots of 1 1/2" or so mud beds that are 30 years older or more. Nothing wrong with them except the homeowner doesnt like the tile anymore. Just because it isnt done as you say " the way it was 70 years ago" doesnt mean it wont stand the test of time. If you build it to today's required standards, it'll last longer than me and you. yep, yep, yep.