Gas and Oil Home Heating Furnaces - Borg Warner with Honeywell ignition Buzzing

Hello,

I have a natural gas furnace that has Borg Warner imprinted on the outside panel. On the inside there is a Honeywell S86E intermittent pilot ignition module.

The issue I am facing is that when I turn the heat on, depending on how long it has been off, it buzzes for a period of time before it turns on. So for instance, if the heat has not been on for an hour, it may buzz for 15 seconds before the click, which seems to be when the flame starts, from which point on, everything is fine with the system. If the heat hasn't been run in a few hours the buzzing lasts more along the lines of 30 seconds. If it hasn't been run in a few days then it can buzz for a few minutes before it kicks on.

There is never any smell of gas, so not worried at the moment about that, but the buzzing is annoying to say the least. Also because of it, I don't leave the house with the heat on because I don't know if this will lead to a condition where the gas could begin to leak with no ignition.

I can see a thicker orange wire which appears to be spark wire for the igniter. When the buzzing occurs I can see sparking at the tip of the igniter in the orange wire as I'd expect.

Any ideas where I can look to try and troubleshoot this? It seems like perhaps whatever is supposed to be sensing if there is a spark, isn't sensing that the spark is there until after its been sparking for a bit.

Thanks!
Josh

The sequence of ignition is for the gas to the pilot light and the aprk to be turned on at the same time. As soon as the spark lights the pilot, the spark shuts off and the gas for the main burner turns on at the same time.

From your description, it sounds as if the pilot light isn't lighting promptly, causing the spark to remain on.

The other possibility is that the pilot lights and the spark continues to buzz.

If it's a delay in lighting the pilot burner, more than likely the pilot burner needs to be disassembled and the pilot orifice cleaned, or better, replaced.

ok great, thanks for the response! The buzzing stops once the pilot does light, so it sounds like it is the pilot burner either dirty or in need of replacement.

I see there is 2 screws attaching the pilot burner to the furnace, as well as it having the line for the spark, and the line for the pilot gas attached to it. If I unscrew the pilot gas line from the pilot burner in order to remove it, am I putting anything at risk here? I would think no, as the unit that the other end of the pilot line attaches to should have a valve inside which is closed right? otherwise I think i would be smelling gas.

Yes, turn the power off and gas to the pilot and main burner should both be shut off. Doesn't hurt to turn off the shut off valve, too.

You may find it easiest to remove the pilot tubing at the gas valve with a 7/16" wrench, which will probably allow you to remove the pilot tubing and pilot burner with a minimum amount of bending of the pilot tubing.

The pilot orifice is under the other compression fitting at the pilot burner. If you can find it, I'd recommend replacing the pilot orifice since the Honeywell pilot orifice has an odd shape that can be difficult, even very difficult to clean properly.

When you are DIY, you want to spend a little money to maximize your chances of success and a quality job, and a new pilot orifice will do that. It's a cheap part, the difficulty is in finding it and getting your hands on a replacement.

The Honeywell pilot orifice looks like the one at the top of the page here:

Honeywell Pilot Orifices, Penn-Baso Pilot Orifices, Roobertshaw Pilot Orifices, A&F Pilot Orifices (http://www.teecoproducts.com/catalog/L11.htm)

Thanks a lot. That part is much smaller than I thought it would be, and what a pain the neck to get that burner assembly out of there! So I have the orifice, and i can see a very tiny, almost pin sized hole in the middle of it. Is there a preferred way to clean this thing out? Just blow through it, or should i soak in mineral spirits or something along those lines?

I'll definitely be ordering a new one, but would like to see if this resolves in the mean time.

I cleaned the orifice via just compressed air and quite a bit of soot seem to drop out, though the hole was not clogged perhaps this will help. However on a separate note, perhaps was part of original problem or I screwed it up when removing, but the "sparkplug"? looks to be sparking not only from the top where its supposed to, but also around the base, again not sure if it was doing this before or not, but I am hesitant to turn the system on with this condition. Can someone tell me the name of this part so I can begin searching where to buy this and the orifice. Better yet do they sell that whole assembly that would come with the orifice and plug together?

"Electrode", I'd say. Search 'furnace pilot/electrode'.

That pilot burner assembly, including the electrode which cannot be purchased separately, is probably a Honeywell Q345.
If you purchase one, they come in 3 pilot angle configurations:
Q345A-1305 has two pilot "wings" split equally left & right of the electrode, the -1313 angles left & the -1321 angles right.
You will also need either to know the pilot orifice size or at least specify natural or LP gas.

excellent, thanks for the info. I removed the pilot burner assembly again and it does say Q345A K11 8408. Not sure what perspective it is that determines the layout, but if i look at the front of the burner assembly so the gas is on the left and the electrode on the right, the gas is aimed toward the front slightly. I'll call around today to see if any one local has it.

Called around everywhere today, including Honeywell but unfortunately I cannot seem to get a solid answer from anyone. Since my pilot ignition is imprinted with Q345A K11 8408, it seems to be missing a key 4 digit code. The Q345A is indicating the model number, the K11 is the burner tip type and bracket mounting style, and the 8404 is the manufacture date August 1984.

The closest replacement I can find is the Q345A1321 out of the 3 that are available but no one was able to confirm this is correct when I called around today.

Basically I am in need of the cross reference chart between identification number and order specification number. Honeywell's site reveals nothing for my specific scenario that I could find. I did find the info about the above through a chart from page 3 here :
http://store.controlco.com/pdf/67364c16f7bb9f6cQC%20D%20Data%20Sheet%20.pdf

Though its a different model number, it does breakdown what the numbers mean and shows a cross reference does exist for these imprinted numbers.

Does anyone know what O.S. number matches my identification number?

I would try cleaning the assembly & maybe replacing the pilot orifice unless you have some specific reason to believe the electrode is bad. Carb or brake cleaner generally does a pretty good job of cleaning.

I did clean the orifice, but I know the electrode ceramic is broken, though not sure if I somehow was the cause upon removal the first time, or if this was part of the original problem. Its sparking from the base and the tip of the electrode though so I don't want to use it.

Here is the spec sheet on the Q3451321:
Product (http://customer.honeywell.com/honeywell/ProductInfo.aspx/Q345A1321)

The lnstallation instructions are in the menu at the bottom.

In looking at the product data sheet at the bottom of that same page, I do see they show for the Q345A, 3 setups: K, No. 11, and No. 35. Mine looks most like the No. 11, as it has no hole for the bleed tube whereas the other 2 do & the mount holes on mine are between the pilot burner body and the igniter as is also indicated in No. 11.

As for the angle, though it's not showing in the image of the No. 11, it looks like that maybe just designated separately as "K" (Right) according to the specs on the main page you linked to in your reply. Given that "K11" is showing on the one I have, I'm going to have to assume this is the combination of what I'm seeing in the literature between No.11 & "K" (right) and that Q345A1321 is the right replacement.

Since you said that you were getting spark - I would assume the buzzing is coming form the gas control valve - the pilot valve to be exact.
You either have a bad gas valve or the gas pressure is too high and the valve can't open against the pressure.
Since it does eventually open I would say that you need a new intermittant pilot gas control valve.

Since the ceramic is broken on the igniter I'll replace that first and see if it does anything to remedy the issue. Then I'll take a look into the valve. I had my ear up to the system to try and find where this buzz was coming from and it sounded like it was coming from much lower than where the valve is, and I the best I could find was that it was coming from down where the pilot burner is. I guess it could have been more of a referred sound going through the pipe and throwing me off.

One more thing, since I'll likely be ordering this and the orifice online, is there a preferred vendor anyone uses? A site sponsor maybe?

I received the replacement part but the mounting bracket is different. Rather than being two holes between the electrode and the gas line, the new one has the two holes on the end of the unit, as seen on honeywell's site. It does cone with an adapter but cannot figure out how this adpter would work with my setup. Intact none of the holes on the included bracket even match up with the new pilot burner. Has anyone used this adapter and if so how did u set it up?

You are in good company. I sent the landlord to pick me up a new range burner control and he came back with a universal one that does not have all the necessary parts to allow me to have the knob look like it sticks out from the back of the range the same distance as the other 3. I know how I can make it look the same, when I get time. For now it sticks out about 3/8ths inch more than the others.

If you yourself cannot seem to figure out any way of doing this so it is in the right spot, and you get no specific reply here, you will need to contact the supplier or manufacturer, I suppose.

At times I've had to make adaptors or drill holes for the screws. Once in a while we run into an old burner assembly for which there is no exact replacement.

Thanks guys. I bought a piece of aluminum from homedepot that I am going to bend and drill holes in, to match the original bracket configuration. Guy there said aluminum would be fine vs. Steel. Any concerns on metal types? It's not in the direct line of fire so I would think no temperature issues.

Since the pilot tubing is aluminum & in the same area, I would think aluminum would be OK. If you can avoid it I don't suggest tapping threads in the aluminum. Steel screws or bolts tend to seeze in aluminum threads. If tapping is unavoidable, give the threads & bolts a good coat of aluminum based anti-seeze compound & make sure you work it into the threads. ;)

Personally, I wouldn't worry about using aluminum for a mounting bracket, and I'd just use a couple of .25" sheet metal screws to hold it in place in most cases.

Usually I'd use a pair of sheet metal snips and cut a piece out of a steel can. But a bracket like that is pretty non critical as long as it holds things in place, in my experience.



Seattle Pioneer

ok, got the mount done, i believe! looks like it lines up nicely. Now I am going to use the new bendable piping. Any tips on using this? I was able to get roughly the same shape as the old one with minimal bends. But the compression fittings don't seem to want to slide on the ends too well. They are smooth cuts on the ends and no burrs, but i think the issue is that any slight bend in the pipe stops those fittings from sliding on. I know the easy answer is don't bend the tube, but it comes in a coil so its already curved to begin with.

Wasn't sure if there was a cheap tool for this, or a method people use that will yield better results.

Also for the fittings, the instructions with the pilot burner say slide the pipe in until it stops, then hand tighten the fitting. Then use a wrench and do 1 turn to compress the metal inside and make the seal. Now with the other end that will go into the main valve assembly, is it the same deal? slide the compression over the end (i'll use the distance from the old pipe as a guide) and then hand tighten and 1 wrench turn?

Work gently & straighten out the last couple of inches of the tubing. Something else you can do is use a file on the end to champher it just a little. Often there is a ridge left by cutting the tubing.
Both fittings are installed the same way, hand tight +1 turn.
When finished be sure to check for leaks. Naturally you'll have to have flow to do the leak check.

great thanx foir the pointers. When doing the leak test is it advisable to leave the electrode wire connected? In otherwords, will I have enough time to see any leaks prior to ignition?

No, you won't have enough time. If the gas valve has a "pilot" setting put it on pilot to hold out the main burner. Something else which may work is if there is a separate wire for sensing the pilot flame (I doubt it) that wire could be disconnected.

With intermittent pilor systems, there is usually a connection on the gas valve to turn on the pilot gas (PV) and a second connection to open the main gas valve (MV). If you disconnect MV, the pilot will light, the spark will stop but the main burner gas will not turn on.

Good idea SP. Why I didn't remember that is beyond me. Just one caution when doing this: Don't allow the end on the MV wire to ground against anything metal.

ah excellent. I do see on the S86 module, 4 wires on the right side. MV, MV/PV, PV, Ground. So I will disconnect the MV and put a wirenut on there, then that will allow the pilot valve to open. Do I need concern myself with the MV/PV wire?

No, you need not be concerned with it. It must remain attached or neither the Pilot Valve nor the Main Valve will operate.

Ok guys, thanks for all the help here. Finally it is installed, no leaks so this is good. A few follow-up questions:

- The pilot flame begins just as it exits the pilot burner, is this where the flame should be? I didn't notice before where it had begun, but want to make sure this isn't too low?

- Is the pilot supposed to stay list the whole time the main burner is running? The spark stops once the pilot is lit, then the main kicks on and lights, but the pilot remains going.

- The buzzing is still present, so I think Beltline may be right about the pilot control valve. Maybe once it's been opening/closing for a while it has an easier time next time it is called on, and if sitting for a long period without operation then it has a difficult time opening that first time. The ceramic was busted on the old one so at least thats fixed! I don't think I will venture into this, as that valve control assembly has all the gas lines into it, so a bit beyond my comfort level.

- Lastly, the gas shut off valve that is just prior to the furnace will not turn by hand so I cannot shut off the gas at that location. I did read, that if it does not move by hand force only then it needs replacement and not to use pliers to try to turn it. Is this accurate, and should I just have this replaced as a matter of safety?

Thanks again for everyones help, this has been invaluable!!

If the appliance shutoff valve wont turn it should be replaced or greased. You's need to turn the gas off at the meter. Since you don't have the proper grease, replacing the valve is probably the easiest. You can get a replacement valve at a hardware store.

Yes, the pilot stays lit while the burner is operating.

Can you tell from where the buzzing is coming? It could be from the 120/24 volt transformer in which case it's nothing to worry about. If it is the spark continuing you might have a bad ignition module.

I only can seem to hear it coming from the electrode it self. i think the buzz that I hear is the spark itself consistently going until the pilot gas valve opens up. It seems the pilot valve has a delayed opening.

It should buzz until the pilot is lit. At which time the buzz should stop.
Some pilots take longer to light than others. I've seen some take as long 15 to 30 seconds. Granted this isn't ideal but is it worth the cost of a new gas valve & would the new valve solve the problem? You don't have a stack damper or any kind of exhaust blower on the furnace do you?

No there is no exhaust blower. If that's the case, I'll go with it for now. I can watch the spark for ~15 seconds(which is the buzzing from what I can tell), then I hear the click which I can only assume is the pilot valve opening, as the pilot burner ignites, then 2-3 seconds after there is another click, which is the main burner kicking in.

Its that the length of the buzzing increases depending on how long its been since the last time it was run, but as you say, you've seen some at 15 - 30, so I'd think I'm still within range for my dated machine.

It sounds like the pilot valve in the gas valve is opening slowly. This is possibly due to the coil getting weak. Just to see if it helps you might want to clean the terminals & replace the wire ends. Unless it really bothers you or you want to replace the valve before it fails, that's about all I'd do.

great, I'll check the wire ends and terminals and see if that helps, that is simple enough. It definitely is not bothering me enough to move forward with the replacement of the gas valve assembly at this time. If the valve was to fail, it seems like it would fail to open, not fail to close, is this the typical type of failure? I can live with this, knowing that I wont be caught in a gas leak situation from the valve.

I am guessing its some type of electromagnetic valve in there, as when i kill the power from any source the gas turns off, meaning the valve is shutting.

A gas valve that is opening slowly today can pretty much be depended upon to quit working at all before long. This is your opportunity to replace the defective part on your schedule rather than have it fail unpredictably, usually at a time that will not be convenient.

Remember this advice when it quits working on a Friday afternoon with the late season cold snap and the earliest you can get the part is Monday, when you'll be working.

Without a doubt it will fail at the worst possible time. Still the question remains in my mind is why it's not opening. I wonder if it's not opening because it's not getting power or if there is something, such as a weak coil, in the valve. This is pretty easy to check with a voltmeter.
Apply the probes of the meter to the terminals on the valve marked "PV" & "PV/MV" then create a call for heat. If you get 24v as soon as the spark starts the problem is in the valve. If on the other hand you get the 24v virtually at the same time the valve clicks it could be a built in delay in the control.

S/P--Agreed?

Sure --- it's always worth while to measure the voltage being applied to a part to make sure that the proper voltage is being applied.

Hi Folks,

So I tested with a meter and it appears I'm getting 24V as soon as the spark starts, and it continues even after the pilot has been lit. The 24V reading on the meter continues, not the spark that is.

So looks like it's pointing in the direction of the valve.

It is indeed pointing toward a valve problem. Do you get the
24v at virtually the same time the pilot lights or is there somewhat of a delay between? If there's a delay the problem is all but certainly the valve.

It appeared to be at the same time, but of course now it lights almost immediately so I guess I need to wait a bit then try again. At first it did seem like the meter was fluctuating between O.L and 26V until the flame actually lit, but I think that maybe I didnt have a good connection on there with the meter. I will try again and see what happens.

It seems that the meter fluctuates wildly while the initial buzzing(igniter sparking) is occurring. It was all over from -24, O.L, 25, 26, etc...

Once the pilot valve opens, the gas flows, pilot flame ignites, sparking ceases, its a solid 25V, on my meter for whatever reason.

The fluctuation doesn't surprise me but I want to get SeattlePioneer's take on it.


S/P?

I suppose you are using a digital multimeter? They can jump wildly all over the place, on valves that are working. I've personally tested and seen this.

I think I'd prefer an analog meter, to verify what is going on. And if you do not have one and prefer not to buy one just for this - then, to eliminate all that meter jumping, you can remove the wires from the gas valve and test just the wires. Then you should get the steady 24 volts that shows up. If you get a negative number, or a no read, try reversing the test leads.

Yeah that's correct, its a digital multimeter. So, unless, the lead reversal or wire disconnect testing methods yield a different result, would this mean there is likely an inconsistent electrical signal coming into the valve assembly?

Whatever the cause, it certainly does disappear with consistent use of the system, only after letting it sit for a few hours or longer can I get it NOT ignite, more or less instantaneously.

Could this symptom be from a weak coil in the valve, as mentioned, as a possibility? Does the coil hold a charge at all?

Darn it. I hate intermittent problems. :wall:

The fact it's more difficult to light after sitting makes me think it might be mechanically sticking. If the 24v is solid with the wires disconnected, no doubt, at least in my feeble mind, the problem is within the valve

If say repeat testing of the gas valve wires shows that there is unwavering 24 volts -and you then hook back on the wires and try to get the furnace to fire up, but still no fire, even though you now know 24 volts gets to the valve - try rapping on the gas valve with the butt end of a screwdriver to see if that gets it to light up. Then you'll know for sure your glitch is in that valve.

Frustrating, isn't it? Welcome to the real world of furnace repair.

If I were doing this repair when I was a repairman, I'd probably pull out a ***new*** Honeywell spark ignition kit that included a new module, gas valve, pilot wires and whatever and take from it what I needed to complete the repair and hope to sell the other parts at a later time.

My aim would be to complete the repair in single trip and avoid having to return, since that a major pain in the neck, time consuming and customers want things fixed right away.

I'd quote the customer a generous price for the parts needed, install them and be done in an hour.

You may need to do something like that to get things working.