Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Excessive Air from Iron Filter

I've been living in my house for about 7 months now and for 6 of which, the Hellenbrand Iron Filter the house came with was not turned on (which I didn't know). We had a service man come and turn it on and he explained that there would be small water bubbles in the water as a result of the iron filter.

However, it seems as though the air in the system accumulates in the faucets when the water is not being used, so when I turn on a faucet, they "chug" and spits-out air and a little water until the air comes out (similar to what it sounds like if you've turned off the water in your house and then used your faucets for the first time after turning the water back on.) Since the iron filter is downstairs, the air in the system must float to the top of the pipes which happens to be at the faucets upstairs.

Is this normal to have to deal with the air build-up in the faucets? Is this just part of owning an iron filter? The extra air also seems to have gotten into the storage tank for my reverse osmosis filter, so now it takes an extra long time to fill a glass with water because it has so much air in it :(

I'm glad my water no longer stinks and doesn't seem to have a any noticeable amount of iron in it, but the excessive air issue is a bit annoying!

No, it's not normal to deal with that much air. The system uses air to oxidize the iron. The iron is then filtered out. Other iron filters may not use air at all to oxidize, but rather a media to do both. It seems to me that there would be a devise to rid the unit of the excess air. I installed a Hellenbrand years ago that had an air pump, but don't recall how the air was released.

Is this normal to have to deal with the air build-up in the faucets? Is this just part of owning an iron filter?

Well, yes, in some cases. It all depends on how the air gets in there. You say you have a Hellenbrand iron filter (which may use a Clack valve) but you don't say much more than that.

If you have an air injection system, either with a venturi or air pump, then you must have a gas-off tank. Without it, the water will spurt like you are talking about.

What is the media in the tank? Do you have other equipment inline before or after the iron filter?

Give us more detail on your raw water test results.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

You'll have to excuse my ignorance on this topic... until the water guy came to turn on the iron filter last week, I didn't really know what it did much less that it wasn't working!

The water feeds right from our well into the iron filter.... there isn't anything before it except the pressure tank. It appears as though we have the regular "Iron Filter" shown on the Hellenbrand web site:

Iron Removal Systems (http://www.hellenbrand.com/contentPage.cfm?ID=657&CFID=2579719&CFTOKEN=82238775)

There's a little air compressor on one of the two tanks that goes on during the night on occasion. Following the iron filter is a Hellenbrand water softener. I guess I don't know if I have a "gas-off" tank... how would I know? Other than the two iron filter tanks, one tank for the water softener, a brine tank, and a pressure tank, that's all there is.

If it helps, I could take a picture of the whole thing to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, the water guy didn't give me any details of the test he performed other than our water is fine :o

Yes, that helped a little. The air compressor is where the aair is injected. The iron filter is the one with the backwashing electic valve on it. The other tank may have some small ports on the top, This is the gas-off tank. If the venting is plugged, then the air can't get out except through the faucet.

The air pump MAY be connected to the pressure switch and should come on everytime the well pump kicks in. This oxidizes the soluable iron so that if can be filtered out. The backwashing filter is what runs in the wee hours of the morning. Of course the air pump will kick in occasionally during this time as well.

Since the air is not coming out of the gas-off tank, you are experiencing this reaction. It may be a simple service to fix.

Send a picture if you can.

Andy

Finally got around to taking some pictures... the problem is starting to drive me a little nuts. I found this Hellenbrand owner's manual that looks like it's for a system like mine:

http://www.hansonsoftwater.com/pdf/IronCurtain-73-510-manual.pdf

If you'd prefer larger pictures, the originals can be found here:

Hellenbrand Iron Curtain album | Todd Taylor | Fotki.com (http://public.fotki.com/ttaylor/misc/hellenbrand-iron-curtain/)

http://images44.fotki.com/v1449/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain001-vi.jpg

http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain002-vi.jpg

http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain003-vi.jpg

http://images23.fotki.com/v876/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain004-vi.jpg

http://images46.fotki.com/v1453/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain005-vi.jpg

http://images47.fotki.com/v1463/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain006-vi.jpg

I read on another web site something about a guy having a problem just like mine and he stated that the air bleed-off valve was stuck. However, on my system, I'm not exactly sure how I'd check if I have the same problem. On the aeration tank, there's a copper pipe with a 90 degree bend in it that goes to the floor and a threaded screw at the top which I'm guessing might be one valve I can check? The manual also makes mention off an air bleed-off value, but that appears to be part of the pump mechanism and feeds into the aeration tank.

I'm not sure but think that the black line is the air bleed line. The clear is the air inlet from the pump. Can not see where the black line goes.

I'm not sure but think that the black line is the air bleed line. The clear is the air inlet from the pump. Can not see where the black line goes.
I think that's right. The black and clear line run right next to each other and attach to the aeration tank right next to each other.

Follow the black line from the aerator tank. At the other end should be some type of devise to relieve the air. I can't tell from your pics.

Here's the black line feeding into the air-bleed valve from the back:
http://images44.fotki.com/v1448/photos/7/19777/7259069/IronCurtain001-vi.jpg

Here's the black line feeding into the air-bleed valve from the front (the back, round plastic piece with the little gray "button" in the center):
http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/19777/7259069/IronCurtain002-vi.jpg

The who contraption:
http://images47.fotki.com/v1464/photos/7/19777/7259069/IronCurtain004-vi.jpg

When I press the button on the air-bleed valve for the black line, you can hear something escaping, I'm assuming it's air. According to the manual for the Iron Curtain, this valve should stay open for 4 minutes after the filter does it's thing at night.

Grrr...

Called our local water experts to come out to the house to hopefully figure-out what's causing all the extra air. They don't know either.

:wall:

Just had a flash back. Was looking over the pics again. The black line is hooked to the drain. That's when it changes the air. The pump should only run for a short time (IIRC). I only worked on a few of these, but do remember having customers complain about too much air. Time your pump (cut on-cut off). What causes the pump to cycle? Could be a micro switch inside the front cover?

your pump (cut on-cut off). What causes the pump to cycle? Could be a micro switch inside the front cover?
In the lower-right corner of this picture is a round wheel with metal 'pins' in it. A raised pin triggers the pump to go on at specified periods through-out the day.

http://images47.fotki.com/v1464/photos/7/19777/7259069/IronCurtain004-vi.jpg

In the lower-right corner of this picture is a round wheel with metal 'pins' in it. A raised pin triggers the pump to go on at specified periods through-out the day.

http://images47.fotki.com/v1464/photos/7/19777/7259069/IronCurtain004-vi.jpg

The drive motor must rotate the cam to allow the ports to open. This is can not done more than once a day with this timer. I can't remember if the pump is suppose to come on only when the unit is in a regen. Just called an old friend who worked with me installing these. The pump is only suppose to come on once a day at max. If the pump is coming on more, it may be hooked to the pressure swith. This is wrong.

If the pump is coming on more, it may be hooked to the pressure swith. This is wrong.
Hmmm... I think I miss-spoke. The little wheel on the lower right corner, according to the manual, is called the "12 day skipper wheel". This apparently controls how many times the regeneration occurs over a 12 day period. It looks like mine is scheduled to run every third day. As the sticker says on the control unit, it only seems to run around midnight, I haven't heard the compressor run any other time of the day.

The manual gives these resolutions for spurting water from faucets:

2a. Eliminate restrictions in supply
pipings to water treatment
equipment such as iron bacteria
plugging the upper diffuser
assembly, etc.

2b. Install larger water treatment
system to provide less pressure drop

The service person who was here today confirmed that there are no restrictions in the system, so 2a is out. I have no idea what 2b even means. Considering how little water we use and that our water pressure is fine, I don't think this is the issue.

2b. Install larger water treatment
system to provide less pressure drop[/I]

I have no idea what 2b even means.

This is just saying if you have a pressure drop problem, get a bigger unit. The way I see it is the tank is holding too much air. That means either the valve in not releasing it or the pumps creates more air than the valve can remove. I say the pumps is producing more air. Look in the manual under start up procedures. Does it say to fill the system up (with water) then put system in a regen cycle? If so, you will need to drain off all air manually then place ststem in a regen. The pump will put the proper amount of air in the system. I know it is not suppose to have that much. Maybe a third of the tank. The rest is water. Keep me posted.

You didn't mention in your original post if this air problem was at all times or every so many days. It may be possible that the brine line connections to the softener are not tight or the plumber put the brine line ferrules in incorrectly and the softener is sucking air during the brine and rinse portion of its regeneration.
Yes the filter adds air during a portion of the regeneration of the filter only on the days when the pins indicate (pins out) It bleeds off excess through the black line via an open brine valve being used as a bleed off and out the drain port. It sets the air level based on the length of a tube inside the aeration head. When air is pumped into the aeration tank it fills until it reaches the bottom of that tube and naturally escapes out the black line to drain preventing too much or too little air. You can watch each cycle of the operation by opening your timer and manually turning the wheel from the front and watch the micro switches ride up and down on pins that are for timing each cycle.
(There are pins and switches on both sides of the wheel.) The compressor turns on and runs for 6 mins. During that time, it bleeds water first, then air when it reaches the bottom of the tube inside the tank and it should start spitting at the drain. Check the end of your drain line during the aeration portion (air compressor running) of the regeneration, there should be water first then spitting of air and water later. If there's no water at all or air during that portion of the regeneration, there's a blockage in one or both orifices mentioned next. I suppose it's possible that the brass fitting there could be clogged and there is a small flow controller in the back of the bleed off brine valve, but rare. I noticed you had an overhead drain line and some build up could occur. If you open it to check it you will get some water coming back from the drain line above. If this problem is only happening after the softener regenerates though, start in your brine tank pick up tube and work backwards for air leaks. Good Luck :thumbup: TJ Hornet

Thanks for your feedback, TJ. I think I'll have to read your comments a couple of times before they sink-in :coffee:

The problem does occur every day. Any time there is a long delay between using our kitchen faucet (such as over night or when we're at work during the day), the air must build-up somewhere/somehow and then spits-out when the faucet is first used.

I'm not even sure how frequently the water softener runs... the dials on that thing are more confusing than the one on the iron filter :o

One question, is your kitchen cold on filtered and soft water or raw well water? Acorrdinding to the pictures it doesn't look like there is a seperate filtered but not softened water line. If it is not on filtered water, ( you could check by shutting the inlet and outlet valves of the system off and seeing if the kitchen cold runs, if it does its on raw water) The air then is coming from the top of the aeration tank backwards through the check valve located on the inlet of the aeration tank, up your raw water pipe and to your kitchen sink. A when other house water is run the air would back up through the open check valve to the kitchen cold raw water. To fix that problem the check valve should be re-installed so that it is mounted on a vertical path to the inlet of the aeration tank with at least a foot of pipe BELOW the inlet of the tank. That way it creates somewhat of a water seal against the check valve and not just air. There also then would be a downward piece of pipe acting like a "trap" at the inlet of the aeration tank and much less likely to get air at the kitchen sink. As it's installed now, when you open a raw water line and house water runs, the check valve will open allowing water to go towards the filter but at the same time the air will escape upwards/backwards towards any raw water ( outside etc... ) TJ

One question, is your kitchen cold on filtered and soft water or raw well water?
The valves and piping are setup in pretty much an "all or nothing" configuration. On the right side are the valves that control whether or not the iron filter and water softener are by-passed. You either get softened, filtered water or raw water, not a mix. Therefore, with the way I have the valves opened, the entire house is getting softened, filtered water.

What does a check valve look like? Is the fitting behind the tank in this picture a check valve?

http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/19777/7259069/Iron_Curtain003-vi.jpg

I think you're right in that air could potentially be backing-up out of the aeration tank. In the Hellenbrand installation diagrams, the check valve is show mounted vertically as you suggest, not horizontally. However, if air was escaping in that route, there is valve in the way that *should* prevent the air from getting to the faucet. Are valves usually pretty air and water tight?

Did you shut off your inlet and outlet valves to see if the kitchen sink cold still ran water?. If it does, it's not on filtered or softened water and the check valve installation will be critical. Or change that line to filtered and softened and you'll only get the air at the outside faucets. (untill you change the postion of the check valve). Yes that is the check valve pictured just before your inlet. Air will go backwards through it from the top of the air tank when it opens to allow water through it for the house.
I don't understand what you mean regarding a "valve" that should be holding it back. If you mean the bypass valve to the system, yes it should be holding.
If your kitchen cold is on filtered softened water, you could try regenerating less often on the filter, check the water softener brine line connections as stated before, or the orifices as stated before. But if they were clogged, all three tanks would have to fill with air in order to allow air past the whole system which would be awful rare. The air could be expanding in the lines also as the service man said because of high flow fixtures IE: multiple head shower systems, whirlpool filling etc.

Yes that is the check valve pictured just before your inlet. Air will go backwards through it from the top of the air tank when it opens to allow water through it for the house.

According to the diagram I was looking at, the water drops down through the tank and up the distributor tube. How can air be pushed backwards when the check valve is open?

To fix that problem the check valve should be re-installed so that it is mounted on a vertical path to the inlet of the aeration tank with at least a foot of pipe

How is changing the check valve going to correct the problem? Isn't this a spring loaded check? I think he is has too much air and just needs to drain all of it and start a regen. His dilemma is intrigging and I would like to learn.

Did you shut off your inlet and outlet valves to see if the kitchen sink cold still ran water?
There's a third valve that would have to be opened in order to do this, in which case, the kitchen faucet would be getting raw well water. Hopefully I can explain this with a few more pictures below...

I don't understand what you mean regarding a "valve" that should be holding it back. If you mean the bypass valve to the system, yes it should be holding.
A picture is worth a 1,000 words (especially mine since I don't know what I'm talking about), so hopefully this will clear-up what I was trying to say:

http://images18.fotki.com/v195/photos/7/19777/7259069/Plumbing002-vi.jpg

As you can see, there are 3 shut-off valves in the picture and the water is coming into the system from the bottom. (The pipe on the right goes outside, which would be raw well water.)

The shut-off valve with the green handle that is the easiest to see in the photo is the one I'm referring to. Because it's 'closed', all water from the well must go through the iron filter (shut-off valve is currently 'open' to aeration tank) and the water softener before returning via the pipe above that valve (return shut-off valve from water softener is also 'open'). So even if air backs-up from the aeration tank and through the check valve (in the background), the air would have to get past this closed shut-off valve before going up to the rest of the house.

Here's a more complete picture of the plumbing:

http://images28.fotki.com/v1030/photos/7/19777/7259069/Plumbing003-vi.jpg

The lines to the kitchen faucet tap-in just a few inches past where the water heater pipes are:

http://images27.fotki.com/v993/photos/7/19777/7259069/Plumbing004-vi.jpg

At the moment, I'm trying to figure-out if the air issue affects the cold and hot, or just one or the other. When I got home today and turned on the cold, there was no air problem and there was a small amount of air in the hot (which is weird). I've usually been turning on the kitchen faucet in the 'warm' position so I can't be sure where the air is actually coming from.

Does the air problem happen everyday or just after a regen?When I look at the picture in the manual, it shows the drain should be to the left. In your pics, the drain is on the right. Have you looked at the gray cap on the aerator tank to insure it's plumbed correctly?

Does the air problem happen everyday or just after a regen?
Pretty much every day when the faucet isn't used for a few hours.

When I got home from work today, I turned on just the cold water in the kitchen and had no air issues. But then I turned on the hot water and chug-chug-splurt-etc. Now I'm really confused as I don't see how air would be getting into the hot water. :mad:

I have a reverse osmosis filter on the kitchen's cold tap which now has quite a bit of air in it... I wonder if it is actually pulling in the air bubbles from the cold side so they don't come out of the tap.

Have you looked at the gray cap on the aerator tank to insure it's plumbed correctly?
I think it's plumbed correctly. Page 12 of the manual says "Black - Air Bleedoff Fitting" and "White - Air Recharge Fitting" for the aeration tank connections. This jives with with the picture on the lower left corner of page 3 and with how my system is setup.

Use a flash light to see where the water level is on the aerator tank. Just run the light up and down the tank. You may able able to the water line. I still think there is too much air in the tank.

Use a flash light to see where the water level is on the aerator tank. Just run the light up and down the tank. You may able able to the water line. I still think there is too much air in the tank.
On the filter tank, there is a distinct line between where the light shines through and where it doesn't, about half way down the tank. I'm guessing the dark area is the "mutli-media bed" as shown in the manual and not the water line.

For the aeration tank, however, I have no idea what's going on in there. About a 1/3 of the way down form the top of the tank appears to be a dark 'blob' of material that won't let light through and the bottom of the tank seems clear. There was no distinct cut-off separation between what might have been air and what might've been water... just a dark mass floating somewhat near the top that I'm not sure of what it is?

For the aeration tank, however, I have no idea what's going on in there. About a 1/3 of the way down form the top of the tank appears to be a dark 'blob' of material that won't let light through and the bottom of the tank seems clear. There was no distinct cut-off separation between what might have been air and what might've been water... just a dark mass floating somewhat near the top that I'm not sure of what it is?

Sounds right. 1/3 the tank is air. I'm lost but will keep asking. Have you tried calling Hellenbrand?

Sounds right. 1/3 the tank is air. I'm lost but will keep asking. Have you tried calling Hellenbrand?
I sent them an email and they responded that I should call their technical support line which I have yet to do.