Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems - Which RO system to get ?

I am in an apartment in Brooklyn, NY. The water source is city water ( municipal as some may call it hehe ).

I want to install an under the sink RO system mainly to get rid of chlorine and fluoride but also whatever else there may be that i don't want in my body. The system would be only for drinking and cooking. There are 3 people in the household.

I am currently looking at Kinetico, Watts and GE.

Some questions:

1 - is there anything else as good as Kinetico ?

2 - as far as Watts vs GE is there any advantages with going one way or the other ? issues like warranty, replacement membranes ? water quality ?

i am not looking for something that will last 20 years. more like something that will give excellent service for 5 years. after that who knows - maybe i will be living in another apartment.

also i am a bit of a health freak. i am actually afraid of drinking bottled water because i am afraid its not good enough. i want the quality of water of my RO system to EXCEED the quality of bottled water. in particular i am concerned about the plastic in bottled water. so maybe i need that volatile organic compounds filter ? i am not quite sure how they can pass the RO membrane ?

Kinetico dealer quoted me $1595 with installation or $1295 without installation for the K5 RO system. is this a good price ?

thanks in advance !

As softeners are often looked at as utilitarian, ROs can become very personal, even intimate. The water thjat goes in our bodies should be more valued that what goes on them.

So much for water dogma...

I prefer (and use) the Kinetico RO and have been very pleased with it. I'll wait till you mention or ask about them to elaborate.

I haven't seen anything that is better than the Kinetico due its unique features that preserve membranes and greatly increase production and delivery.

What were the unique features and benefits that you found with the Kinetico RO? It is a very fine product but understanding how it is different from other units can help in making an informed decision.

All ROs will improve water but quality and reliability can contribute to longer production of great water at lower operating costs.

These can be installed by the owner with a few tools.

Is the GE RO you are talking about the MERLIN tankless? Does the WATTS RO have the 'no waste' feature?

Well, others will be on and mention their favorites, too.

Good luck and let us know if you have other questions.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Is the GE RO you are talking about the MERLIN tankless? Does the WATTS RO have the 'no waste' feature?

Thanks for responding.

I don't have a particular model in mind for GE or Watts yet. What are their best models respectively ?

I know that Merlin is unique in having two large RO membranes and no tank ... but the reviews on Amazon are only 3 stars on average.

Also from your other post it seems a certain Watts system uses an inferior ( to Kinetico ) tank design. Do all Watts and GE systems use that kind of tank ?

Which system form Watts and which system from GE ( of the ones currently available ) do you think are the closest in overall quality to Kinetico ?

also, what is the significance of the "no waste" feature ?

there was some argument about it in the reviews on Amazon but i didn't understand it.

thanks.

There are two types of tank designs: pneumatically- and hydraulically-operated. All ROs except Kinetico's use an air charge the drive water to the faucet.

These air chambers usually have between 7 to 9psi and are in 'three'-gallon tanks. With air charged and tank full, you have about 1.5 to 1.3 gallons available, respectively. As the tank empties the flow at the faucet drops noticeably till it dribbles to an end.

Tanks don't normally refill till there is a 60% pressure drop in the tank. So if the tank is half empty and you need a quantity of water you need to empty it and wait for it to refill, which can be a couple of hours depending on the rating of the membrane and incoming pressure.

One of the reasons it produces water slowly is the air charge, which counteracts the incoming pressure. Pressure is very important in RO production.

The Kinetico has engineered the QuickFlow, which uses household water pressure, to deliver water to the faucet, fridges or other remote locations. Most homes have between 30 - 60 psi of water pressure available.

Removing the air chamber gives the QF tank 2.7 gallons of down flow water available and this is without any pressure loss or dribble at the faucet. Moreover, the lines are 3/8" instead of 1/4" and the designer faucet is designed to provide that flow rate. K5 ROs don't need a 60% pressure loss to refill. Just take small glass of water and the tank refills immediately. So you always have a full tank on hand.

New fridges use a shut-off solenoid to the icemaker, which allows just 7 seconds of water flow to fill the trays. If volume or flow rate is not adequate, the trays are not filled and cubes are hollow or small. At 60psi it provides a 1.6 gallons per minute; that's fast--almost three times faster than standard ROs. Many fridge manufacturers recommend not using RO water for their units.

Whenever the tank fills the membrane cleans itself with RO water, flushing away any untreated contaminants from deteriorating the TFC surface of the membrane. This greatly preserves the membrane and gives it a warranty up to ten times longer than any other membrane on the market.

It has been NSF tested to provide 41.5 gallons per day. One reason is that there is a membrane pump, which further increases the already high household pressure. Most ROs produce around 12 - 16 gpd.

Most ROs produce between 3-7 gallons of concentrate (waste water) for every gallon of permeate water. The K5 produces around 1.2 gallons of concentrate due to higher intake pressure. This is a valuable consideration when on city (metered) water.

Kinetico is unique with this automatic membrane rinse system for residential units. The making of RO water doesn't damage membranes very much. The contaminants don't even touch the membrane surface and are washed down the drain during production. In fact, it acts like a windshield wiper cleaning the membrane.

What makes a membrane deteriorate is when water rests against it for periods of time during non-use. Flushing this away at every refill causes the membrane to last for decades rather than years. I have seen old K-ROs installed in the 80's (when the membrane flush system started) still reducing TDS by more than 90%.

There are still other features with the K5 that sets it apart from others. The K5 also has metered filters; TDS monitoring/warning; filters to handle perchlorate, chloramine, sand, arsenic, VOCs, GAC, and low pH. In addition to the membrane, a total of four (in addition to the membrane) of these filters can be combined in the single unit, making it very customizable.

There are currently nine different filters choices (any four can be used at once) and Kinetico is engineering additional ones for future water issues. It provides the only certified biopure filter available anywhere for POU RO water.

Kinetico doesn't copy the standard technologies of other systems with the K5. That's why still they offer the K2 model. It's their apples-to-apples unit with a 2-year warranty on the membrane and 4 on the unit. I call it the 'landlord's special'. "You got your water, shut up and pay the rent!"

Naturally, cost can reflect quality. It is designed for those who want very high quality water for extended periods of time. Warranty provides for the owner to take it with them or for the homebuyer to assume the remainder. I think those are rather unusual, too.

IT IS A VERY NICE MACHINE.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


You can see to membrane pump and placement for two additional filters. The filter-life monitoring needle is on the left.
<a href="http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u44/nalampng/?action=view&current=K5panelsoff.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u44/nalampng/K5panelsoff.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

As installed. QF tank has two lines: one for drinking water, one for pressurizing from household water. All lines are 3/8".
<a href="http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u44/nalampng/?action=view&current=K5installed.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u44/nalampng/K5installed.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Landlord's special LOL. I have a few questions though.

You mentioned a membrane pump. I assume that its the thing on top of the K5 unit and that it runs on the energy of the discharged waste water ?

You also mentioned TDS monitoring ... now i cannot imagine how that could be done without some kind of electricity ... so the unit plugs into 120V ? in that case does the 120V also run the pump ?

And finally an issue that came up on the Amazon reviews. A person there had to return his Watts or GE unit ( don't recall ) because it would run into problems when his sink would back up. Now i live on a 3rd floor in an apartment building that was built around 1980 and today was a second time i noticed something very strange with the sink. The sink temporarily filled up with some kind of white foam, for about an hour or two. It's the second time, last time it was filled with this foam for a few hours. I don't know what it is - but could it damage the RO unit by coming up through the discharge line and getting into the membrane ? There were no water coming up just some kind of foam ...

actually one more question - what filter combination would you recommend for turning NYC municipal water into drinking water ? i was told that since NYC water is chlorinated i don't need the bacterial filter. i am mostly concerned about chlorine, fluoride and various pesticides, dioxins etc. but generally anything that poses a health risk. any ideas ?