Fireplaces, Heating Stoves, Flues and Chimneys - Melting frosty chimney chase

We are trying to get installers to finish the install on our zero clearance fireplace, it has taken more than 1.5 months already. :madhell: The empty chimney chase for the fireplace vent was installed and is 24" sq with wood sides. It is weakly attached to trusses in attic and that will also have to be addressed.

The problem is: frost and ice collects on inside of the chase and melts on warmer days, 2 days ago it finally hit above freezing. When the frost and ice melted it flowed into attic soaked the insulation and dripped into the house. Contractor states frost will not occur once the chimney is installed, I do not believe that. Contractor cut the ceiling out for the chimney and replaced it with a board that I put insulation on it without a vapor barrier. I thought install would be a week long.

Note: we have NEVER had ice or frost on the inside of the attic prior to the chase install!!

We even have a whole house fan and I just cover that with R-30 insulation only no plastic vapor barrier and no frost.
We have a ridge vent, 4 roof vents directly above the fan, soffitt vents and a gable vent and no ice dams. Bathroom vents to the outside.

Insulation can not be added to outside of chase, top is not wide enough. Should insulation be added to inside? The fireplace chimney is 8" diameter. Should I put a soffitt type vent on the leeward or windward side at top of chase?
Help my fireplace is drowning!

Did you or the contractor get a building permit for this project? Usually the 'licensed' (Is he licensed?) contractor pulls the permit. Local building codes dictate how this job needs to be done and if there are any inspections required. It sounds like no plan was submitted for approval by the building inspector. When it comes to fireplaces, for safety of residents and the property, no chances should be taken.

Based on your description of the problem, a number of different things could be wrong, and more than one thing could be wrong. If you are able to take pictures of the current installation, upload those to one of the free hosting services, and then link to them here posters will find it much easier to identify problems and give you advice about solving them.

If you wish to try and evaluate the current state of the work yourself you will need to have some technical documentation on hand.

Manufactured fireplaces are listed systems, the intention is that the fireplace and venting components work together as a system, you generally can't substitute parts or modify them. The place to start to evaluate this part of the installation is to locate the manufacturers installation instructions for your particular manufactured fireplace (you can usually obtain the instructions online based on the required labeling information at the firebox). Here's a typical installation manual (http://content.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/4044-132.pdf) to give you an idea what sort of information they contain.

The rest of the installation is governed by the building codes, the best summary I know of with regard to the fireplace specific code issues (and the one I used for the basis of my own inspections) are the HEARTH Handbooks for Building Officials (http://hpbef.org/building_code.html).

There also many details involved in creating a durably watertight seal between the new chase and the existing walls and roofs, these are covered by a variety of additional building codes and manufacturers installation instructions for these products and systems.

A lot of this stuff is pretty technical, but it's important to get it right as there are very real real safety and fire hazards involved in doing it wrong.

If the contractor has obtained a permit for the work (you can tell because the permit will be required to be posted at the property where the work is being performed ) many of the causes of the sort of problems you described should be caught by the municipal building inspector.

If no permit has been obtained, demand that the contractor obtain one, or change contractors.

If you wish to have the installation inspected by a private individual who is working for you rather than for the contractor the city, one option is to use a F.I.R.E. certified inspector (http://f-i-r-e-service.com/mainframe.html) certified for the particular type of system, for example gas or solid fuel - being installed at your property. (For the record, I am not F.I.R.E. certified fireplace inspector, nor an employee of F.I.R.E. or any associated organization, nor have I ever received any form of compensation from them).

Contractor& Fireplace installers did get permits from the city. I have the manual for the fireplace install. Fireplace installers do not seem to know the specs of the fireplace they are installing and I have to notify them of things they do wrong. I only hope I catch all the things they do wrong. Contractor says the chase is built the same as they always build them and they have not had problems in the past or problems with inspections. He said I do need insulation in the chase and with an additional firestop that is not required installed at roofline any problems should be taken care of.
Thanks for the link to the HEARTH Handbooks for Building Officials. I will take a look at that also. The fireplace I am installing is the Lennox Montecito wood burning fireplace.

Posting rules state I am NOT able to post attachments yet, but I do have photos of the chase.

You can post photos at www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com) or other photo site. You can also scan attachments and post those as well. Post your link here so folks can click and view.

I am not sure how this will turn out since I have never used photobucket before, but here it goes:
1st image of chase being installed:http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss3/USSSPARKY88/chaseinstall.jpg
2nd image of the chase ready for the chimney view from back of house:http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss3/USSSPARKY88/chasemidstage2.jpg

Based on your description of the problem, a number of different things could be wrong, and more than one thing could be wrong. If you are able to take pictures of the current installation, upload those to one of the free hosting services, and then link to them here posters will find it much easier to identify problems and give you advice about solving them.

If you wish to try and evaluate the current state of the work yourself you will need to have some technical documentation on hand.

Manufactured fireplaces are listed systems, the intention is that the fireplace and venting components work together as a system, you generally can't substitute parts or modify them. The place to start to evaluate this part of the installation is to locate the manufacturers installation instructions for your particular manufactured fireplace (you can usually obtain the instructions online based on the required labeling information at the firebox). Here's a typical installation manual (http://content.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/4044-132.pdf) to give you an idea what sort of information they contain.

The rest of the installation is governed by the building codes, the best summary I know of with regard to the fireplace specific code issues (and the one I used for the basis of my own inspections) are the HEARTH Handbooks for Building Officials (http://hpbef.org/building_code.html).

There also many details involved in creating a durably watertight seal between the new chase and the existing walls and roofs, these are covered by a variety of additional building codes and manufacturers installation instructions for these products and systems.

A lot of this stuff is pretty technical, but it's important to get it right as there are very real real safety and fire hazards involved in doing it wrong.

If the contractor has obtained a permit for the work (you can tell because the permit will be required to be posted at the property where the work is being performed ) many of the causes of the sort of problems you described should be caught by the municipal building inspector.

If no permit has been obtained, demand that the contractor obtain one, or change contractors.

If you wish to have the installation inspected by a private individual who is working for you rather than for the contractor the city, one option is to use a F.I.R.E. certified inspector (http://f-i-r-e-service.com/mainframe.html) certified for the particular type of system, for example gas or solid fuel - being installed at your property. (For the record, I am not F.I.R.E. certified fireplace inspector, nor an employee of F.I.R.E. or any associated organization, nor have I ever received any form of compensation from them).

I looked at the install manual link provided, Thanks. I only wish the manual for the Lennox Montecito was at least half as detailed as the Heatilator manual was. All the Lennox manual has do and don'ts and drawings are shabby without much detail. :coffee:
My install manual is dated last year in that it does not require many things that the new manual now requires, thus adding more cost since retrofitting would be required. I think I could stick with the manual supplied by company.

Go to Lennox Hearth Products Montecito Estate™ | Wood-Burning Fireplaces | Dave Lennox Signature™ Collection (http://www.lennoxhearthproducts.com/products/overview.asp?pid=385) and under Owner Resources - Technical Manuals see if there is current info on installation and operation of the model that you have.

Fireplace installers do not seem to know the specs of the fireplace they are installing and I have to notify them of things they do wrong. I only hope I catch all the things they do wrong. Contractor says the chase is built the same as they always build them and they have not had problems in the past or problems with inspections. He said I do need insulation in the chase and with an additional firestop that is not required installed at roofline any problems should be taken care of.

The current manual for your fireplace is here (http://www.lennoxhearthproducts.com/resources/manual/850037M%20Rev%20J-Montecito(II&CO).pdf).

IMO The fact that after reading the manual you were catching installation errors being made by the contractor is an indication that there may well be further problems as a result of this installation.

Also, while it's often difficult to accurately understand the interaction between a client and contractor from the description of only one party to the conversation, I occasionally do encounter contractors who can look at obvious, severe and ongoing problems and seem to genuinely believe that "I've always done it this way in the past, and never had problems" is somehow a reason to ignore the fact that this time the same action has produced a different result - and when this happens, it's often a sign of big problems ahead.

One resource that may be available to you (this is the case for many suppliers, don't know about Lennnox) is that the manufacturer or distributor may have a "field service technical representative" (the name of the job varies) who may be willing to come out, take a look at the installation, and suggest any necessary modifications to the contractor. Field service reps deal with poorly trained contractors all the time, and good ones are quite skillful at doing this without ruffling feathers. The first step is to call the manufacturer, they may handle this function directly, or they may refer you to the distributor.

The current manual for your fireplace is here (http://www.lennoxhearthproducts.com/resources/manual/850037M%20Rev%20J-Montecito(II&CO).pdf).

IMO The fact that after reading the manual you were catching installation errors being made by the contractor is an indication that there may well be further problems as a result of this installation.

Also, while it's often difficult to accurately understand the interaction between a client and contractor from the description of only one party to the conversation, I occasionally do encounter contractors who can look at obvious, severe and ongoing problems and seem to genuinely believe that "I've always done it this way in the past, and never had problems" is somehow a reason to ignore the fact that this time the same action has produced a different result - and when this happens, it's often a sign of big problems ahead.

One resource that may be available to you (this is the case for many suppliers, don't know about Lennnox) is that the manufacturer or distributor may have a "field service technical representative" (the name of the job varies) who may be willing to come out, take a look at the installation, and suggest any necessary modifications to the contractor. Field service reps deal with poorly trained contractors all the time, and good ones are quite skillful at doing this without ruffling feathers. The first step is to call the manufacturer, they may handle this function directly, or they may refer you to the distributor.

The type of problems I caught with the installers were: they wanted to install gravity vents at 50" and specs called for minimum of 68" height. :alarm:
They even suggested gravity vents going downstairs and manual states to not vent downward.
They suggested fresh air kit could come from garage,manual states no garage.
Specs called for a clearance of 36.25" at front, they cut studs to make the opening 37".

Thanks for the info about the field service rep. I will ask Lennox.

Regarding the manuals, manual is dated 1/2008 that came with the fireplace and install was based on that so was permit request. Fireplace unit has been installed as well as the base for the hearth according to that manual.

Do I have to go by the current manual or the manual supplied by the company at time of purchase and permit application?

The new manual dated 11/2008 is different and requires a sheet metal z strip angle between the fireplace and hearth and my fireplace is on platform 6 inches above the raised hearth of 5 inches.

That would be a massive z strip to install after taking up the hearth base.

I have already cut the carpet and installed the wood base with plywood on top of the base, it just needs the durock and the slate on top and sides. I would hate to have rip off the plywood top and remove the base to install the z strip because a new manual came out.

Vents on top of fireplace are not installed, it is a fancy storage spot right now!:wall:

The picture is prior to install of the base of hearth.
http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss3/USSSPARKY88/fireplaceputin99.jpg

Durock will be overlapping metal parts and studs. Marble will be used to surround the fireplace over the durock all around the shiny facade template and onto the drywall. Marble will extend all the way down to the slate.

That is the plan for the fireplace we just need the chase problem fixed. Both contractors say the problems will not occur once the venting is in and attic floor is sealed with the insulated attic radiation shield.
Since fiberglass does not burn could I put ( 2") that on the inside walls of the chase with screen to hold in place? Installers of fireplace said they may be able to fabricate a sheetmetal frame with a hole in it for the vent at the roof line where chimney vent enters the chase. No firestop is required at that point. any other suggestions?

Junebug,

Per the manual when the fireplace is elevated above the hearth extension the required ("the hearth extension is to be installed only as shown") spark strip is installed under the front lip of the fireplace, down the front of the platform supporting the fireplace, and then atop the plywood and under the noncombustible hearth extension material, so you will not need to remove anything unless you have already completed the hearth extension:

http://paragoninspects.com/images/sfba/hearthmantel/sparkstripelevatedfirepalce.jpg

("Field Provided" means that you supply the spark strip, a local sheet metal shop will bend one up for you, probably you will want one with a black finish.)

The reason you are installing a spark strip is not "because a new manual came out", it's because "you don't want to burn your house down" - the logic of a spark strip (AKA "ember strip") is that a over time a crack often opens at the junction of the heart extension and the fireplace, if embers fall into the crack they can smolder there for hours before igniting combustible materials. (Really happens, wander on down to you local firehouse, and ask!)

Also, check with you local building department, they often require a wider hearth extension (typically 20" as opposed to the normal 16" for a fireplace the size of yours) when the firebox is elevated above the hearth extension, for example see pp 152 here (http://books.google.com/books?id=JFX3P-XuNagC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=spark+strip+required+fireplace&source=web&ots=faRnQsKWmS&sig=5RVBnC1SZE87f7lflwvTB0grWow&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA152,M1).

I called Lennox Friday and they said z strip is code in many areas and should be installed. I asked why I was not provided with one and most important why are the instructions for a z strip NOT included with my fireplace. They said city would have required a strip to be installed, but I would not have known until the inspection failed and hearth and chimney installed making it difficult to lift fireplace to install strip under the front of the unit! Dealer also did not have any strips available for the unit.

My mount instructions in my manual provided by Lennox state:
The Montecito may be installed directly on the floor or on a raised base (for proper guidelines, refer to “Hearth Extension Requirements”) and a minimum of 6’8” measured from the base of the appliance to the ceiling is required.
The Montecito may be installed directly on a combustible floor; however, the combustible floor in front of the fireplace must be covered with a non-combustible material (tile, marble, stone, etc).

If it were not for me accidentally finding an updated manual I would have NEVER known about the z strip.

The Hearth is 18" and no specs are listed as to anything else in the manual other than being 18".

I am going out of my way and beyond a normal homeowner just install it any old way in trying to get the installers to install the stuff correctly. If installers had their way it would have failed inspections numerous times 2 months ago, yet I am still waiting for them to install "CORRECT" parts.

Furthermore I do not believe the "ember strip" applies to all fireplace hearths. My hearth will not develop a crack as a cement hearth would. Since 3/4" Marble over the front facing sits on top of the slate hearth. The embers would have to fall out of stove, then pass thru hi temp sealant that is between the marble and slate, slide under the 3/4" marble sitting on top of the slate, down thru a temp gasket (such as fireplace door seals) and then drop on the floor.