Doors and Windows - Replacing Steel Casement windows in Arizona

Hello,

I have very drafty, 20 times painted, steel casement windows in Tucson, AZ. They are steel or some iron compound (magnet sticsk to it).

Most of the windows are in the vicinity of 72 wide by 36 inches tall three body (from left to right: left hindged, fixed pane, right hindged).

The windows are installed in a solid brick wall (exposed brick outside, plaster and a wire mess on the inside). The wall is about 8 inches thick. The windows are not centered in the wall, are about 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 inches from teh brick ouside and 4-1/2 and 4-3/4 inches from the plaster inside. The metal frame of the window seems to have be "burried" into the wall at about 1 to 1-1/2 deep all around. The frame sticks out into the masonry opening about 1/2 inch.

I have priced retrofit vinyl and aluminum and masonry (or pocket/block windows) that have NO nail fin. The later ones are much cheaper and ship faster.

Finally my questions:
1) Tucson gets up to 115 F degree weather with tons of sunlight, would Al. windows be a better choice?

2) If I construct a "buck frame" in hte 3-1/4 inch deep "pocket" will I be able to leave the steel frame (remove casements, hinges, and fixed panes) and slide masonry windows into the opening? (sounds so simple I can do it and is much cheaper ~150 cheaper per window, the window coverings would not have to be removed, etc) If so, how and with what wood should I make the buck frame?

Some pictures to illustrate the posting:
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/45/69/0B/i45690B60-3542-4B4F-837A-00144F1CFCB6.jpg

http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/C4/81/E7/iC481E763-1656-44B9-B90A-03B16169064D.jpg

http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/A5/5F/E6/iA55FE67C-65F3-4B07-BE3F-DA95F2CA0CE2.jpg

http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/58/50/AC/i5850AC94-C777-4DE7-858F-E6206C8A91BB.jpg

Am from the right coast, but I understand you have some very demanding conditions where windows are concerned. From the pic I see you do indeed have a full brick wall construction. I would guess 4" brick, and 4" block on the inside, with furring strips for the plaster lath??? I have done vinyl windows in similar construction here, but not sure how vinyl holds up in 115deg weather. My best suggestion would be wood. And glass options include some high tech heat screens. This old frames will be tough to get out, and fitting a new window with nail fins is tougher. Probably easier to install a wood frame as a nailer. Most of our construction like yours only has wood blocks set into the cinder block, not a frame. I sometimes use the old frames as a buck for new windows, but not sure what is correct for your climate.

You may have the right idea with leaving the frame in place on that one. Sometimes those steel frames got slugged with cement and are a real *&$@! to get out. IMO, unless there is some sort of a strange contour on the window that you need to fill in to achieve a flat jamb surface... adding the wood to the frame is a waste of time and energy, and only serves to make the glass area smaller.

In a situation like you have, I'd suggest you put the window right into the existing frame (once you remove the sashes and cut off the dividers flush with the head and sill) predrilling some pilot holes and screwing the new window right to the metal frame with self-drilling screws. Go with a window that is custom sized (obviously) and has optional metal frame expander (snaps into the groove around the window) so that once the window is installed, you can just trim the frame expander to the right size and snap it onto the bottom, sides and top, then seal it to the brick.

I'm also leary of vinyl windows in Arizona. I got a brother in law in Tucson. :thumbup:

Thanks for your posting !

The frame is burried into the brick. I made a small kitchen remodel and when I removed the backsplash near the window I could see the whole construction of the wall. So to remove the frame would involve to at least remove 1 inch of the brick/plaster around teh window frame creating a huge mess. So the frame is staying in for sure hehe.

Once I remove everything I can from the old window (casements, hinges, operator, fixed panes etc), the only thing remaining will be a 1/2inch lip of the old steel frame all around the brick opening.

Since I have more than 3 inches from the brick outside to the frame I was planning on installing the windows from the outside all the way until the new window hits the old steel frame and screw them directly into the brick. I do have a very steep sil (the angled brick) for which I dont know what to do (maybe the frame expander you mentioned).

I found this instructions:
http://www.intlwindow.com/pdf/installation/install-blockframe.pdf
But I am a little confused on what the sil flashing and pan are. Will this come with the window or is something I have to build using stuff I can get at Home Depot or Lowes ?

You may have the right idea with leaving the frame in place on that one. Sometimes those steel frames got slugged with cement and are a real *&$@! to get out. IMO, unless there is some sort of a strange contour on the window that you need to fill in to achieve a flat jamb surface... adding the wood to the frame is a waste of time and energy, and only serves to make the glass area smaller.

In a situation like you have, I'd suggest you put the window right into the existing frame (once you remove the sashes and cut off the dividers flush with the head and sill) predrilling some pilot holes and screwing the new window right to the metal frame with self-drilling screws. Go with a window that is custom sized (obviously) and has optional metal frame expander (snaps into the groove around the window) so that once the window is installed, you can just trim the frame expander to the right size and snap it onto the bottom, sides and top, then seal it to the brick.

I'm also leary of vinyl windows in Arizona. I got a brother in law in Tucson. :thumbup:

If water gets in around your window for some reason, a pan flashing has an interior lip that acts like a dam, preventing water from overflowing into the home. The way you are going to be installing the windows I don't think it's possible to use a pan flashing. But you might be able to make something similar out of aluminum trim coil. That PDF explains it all... figure 6 will be a side view similar to what you will want to do, where the words "sill condition" would actually be the sill of your steel windows once the sashes are removed.

Your statement, "the only thing remaining will be a 1/2inch lip of the old steel frame all around the brick opening." followed by, "Since I have more than 3 inches from the brick outside to the frame"... confuses me. They seem to contradict each other.

I don't believe any of the big box stores sell pan flashings and they definately will not come with your windows. Your steel windows likely have a lip on the interior edge that will act like a pan flashing, so you might not even have to worry about that. But when you remove your dividers it will probably leave a hole in the sill that your window will need to cover. I'd probably fill the hole with foam, trim it flush, and put some bondo over it or something if you are worried about it leaking.

Thank you for your reply.

I was thinking the same thing about the sill pan and the steel frame.

I am sorry for the confusion with the measurements. Here is an annotated picture of the window opening:
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/37/62/50/i376250CE-09EC-426D-8378-C24FD242647A.jpg
As you can see, if from the outside I measure the distance from the brick surface of the exterior wall to the steel frame of the current window it will measure from 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 inches (varies from window to window) So if we think of the opening of the window as a cube (a rectangular one hehe) the cube would be 72" wide, 36" high and 3-1/4" deep.
The one thing that worries me is that my "window sill" is that angled (downward) row of brick you can see in the picture highlighted so i dont know how the frame of the new window would accomodate. Another thing is that I dont know if the 3-1/4" deep is enough to accomodate the window.

I will take a "cross section" picture of the window tomorrow and will post.

Again thank you very much for your time.


Juan

I think you are thinking of it differently than I am. It sounds like you are thinking of installing your new window against the EXTERIOR of the steel window frame. I would suggest you remove the "guts" of the window and then install your new window INSIDE the old frame, so that it will be as close to the interior edge of that steel frame as possible. Depending on how you size the window, you could probably even install the window at a level even FARTHER in, so that the exterior of your new window will not stick out any farther than the exterior of your current steel window frame. The frame expander I suggested would cover all the exterior edges, and IMO it would be nice if it would lay flat on your existing window frame. The brick sill is not a problem if done that way.

I now see what you are saying. So I would have to size a window to fit inside the steel frame. I would have to then scrape very well the putty that holds the fixed panes against it too. Isn't that frame to thin? the frame is about 3/4 to 1 inch deep only, will a window fit in there leaving a lot of its frame overhanging ?

The cross section pics I promised:
From above (looking down to the angled brick outside)
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/C3/E4/5A/iC3E45AD2-3F6E-4165-9D81-A96CD938682F.jpg

From the side:
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/BD/ED/E0/iBDEDE011-E73C-489F-80CC-094300EC5620.jpg

I think you are getting the picture, but still aren't quite there yet. Your snapshots are great.

You will need to remove the sashes that crank out. Once you do that, the fixed panel will be left. You will probably need to break the glass out of the fixed panel. You "could" scrape the putty out, but it's kind of pointless since it's probably going to break anyway. It would be much faster to just tape the glass up with a roll of duct tape, lay drop cloths down on both the inside and outside, put some thick gloves on and eye protection and then cut that center vertical piece of steel (cutting it at the ends so that it is flush with the rest of the frame) with a reciprocating saw. This will completely open up the window frame so that you no longer have 2 or 3 individual sections... you will have one big opening. You can then install a common mulled window unit of any type.

I'm suggesting you install it right over the top of the steel frame, flush with the exterior of your existing window, and it will stick in farther than it currently does on the interior. If your new window is about 1/4" smaller than the smallest width and height of your metal framed opening, it should fit inside the metal frame nicely without too much play. You would need to shim it to the interior masonry wall opening on all sides with shims, and the new window would likely be anchored to the interior block wall with tapcons. You'll be omitting any type of pan flashing on this type of install. Frame expander covers any gap around the window on the exterior side. The gap around the window on the interior side of the window edges would need to be covered with some type of trim.

I agree with Just Bill, a wood window (or an aluminum window with a wood jamb) would probably work best in that opening, since you could nail your interior wood trim to the wood window jamb.

Lets see if I am understanding. Forgetting for a sec if the window is wood, vinyl, al. or a mix. My windows openings, after I remove everything I can of the old windows will look like this: (side view)
Fig.1
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/F4/53/9A/iF4539A14-7C6C-4AAC-8356-EC7165519347.jpg
The frame is very small. Note that the frame is deeper in the header.

I was originally thinking the following:
Fig. 2
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/2B/80/80/i2B808010-704A-4B72-A7FE-CC5916443F0A.jpg

But you are suggesting the following:

Fig 3.
http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/59/E9/29/i59E9295E-B232-40D2-85DF-D2E1C295B59C.jpg

The drawing was to scale but after the multiple conversions and compressions it looks a little screwed up. I tried to color code the measurements.

My concern with Fig 3. is that the frame lip on which the new window is resting is very very thin (less than 1/4") and that lip is extremely strong too (I tried to cut one with a reciprocating saw and a blade for metal and the blade broke without leaveing a dent on the frame). I might be wrong in my understanding of your posting.

In Fig 2. I was just thinking of flushing the frame with wood and install the window flush with the outside.

In all Figs. I asumed a window to be 3.25-3.5 inches deep (frame) . I measured all my windows and they are min 3.25"from the brick and a max of 3.75" from the brick.

Thanks for all your help and I apologize since I usually call the things by the wrong name which could be leading to confusion. (Thats why the tons of pics :) )

Juan

Yes, figure 3 is closest, but I would try to install the window even farther to the interior than what you have pictured. If it was me, I'd make the exterior of the new window flush with the exterior of your existing steel window frame... not centered on it. This would leave less room for the blinds, but the width of the blinds was not part of my equation. I would think they could always be mounted on the face of the wall or inside a box valance.

You definately do NOT want your new window to be anywhere close to being flush with the face of your brick facade. Normally the face of the window is about 3 1/2" back from the face of the brick (just like it is now). This backset acts like a drip edge so that water from above can drip off the brick, and not run down the face of the window.

Ok so Fig 4 shows what you describe.
Fig 4.:http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/92/E5/0F/i92E50F86-E31F-4736-A563-06C473F93EC8.jpg

Now that we are on the same page...
How can I attach the new window to the old steel case. The window seems to have to balance over that very thin (1/8") lip. Or just installing screws thru the new window's frame into the brick behind the old steel frame will be enough?

Thanks

Juan

How can I attach the new window to the old steel case. The window seems to have to balance over that very thin (1/8") lip. Or just installing screws thru the new window's frame into the brick behind the old steel frame will be enough?

Correct. You won't attach it to the steel frame, it will just sit inside of it. Shims will be inserted on the inside to support the frame and keep it straight, so the shims will need to be the same height as the steel frame. Screws will hold the new window in. You will need to drill pilot holes through the new window's frame and into the cement block with a hammer drill / rotary hammer and then attach the window with Tapcon cement screws. A 5/32" bit works well with the 1/4" screws. The screw will need to be long enough to go into at least 1" of concrete.

You likely have 4" of brick veneer on top of a 4" CMU (cement block wall) so those screws will be going into the cement blocks.

Ok so a shim is as long (or wide) the steel window is and flush with the lip. What wood should I use ? The ceiling, beams, kitchen cabinets were all made with pine (since 1961). Can I use pine?

We opened a hole for a pipe under a sink from inside to the outside, the wall was brick throughtout at 2.5' from the finished floor. If that were to be the case, that shouldn't be a problem right ?

Thanks again,

Juan

The shims you use around the window will all be hidden, so they type of wood really doesn't matter too much. They are placed underneath and around the window, and then the "indoor trim" you have pictured will cover them all up. Usually window shims are sold in packs- 1 1/4" wide pieces of tapered cedar, like a narrow wood shingle. You stack up as many shims as is needed to fill the space. But in your case you might just want to use some small pieces of plywood that will be the right thickness... or even rip some pieces of scrap lumber down to the right size. For instance, if you need a shim that is 7/8" thick, just rip some wood down to 7/8 and use that. Or if you need shims that are 1/2" thick, use some 1/2" plywood as your shim. Cut small pieces (1 1/4" wide, and maybe 2 or 3" long that can be inserted around the window without getting in the way of your "indoor trim". Shims are usually placed near each corner of the window frame, and then at 16 to 24" intervals around the perimeter of the frame, as needed.

Ok, I think I have as much info as I can get to order one window (first to try :) then the rest).

Thank you again for all your time. I will probably start a thread about 1960s steel sliding patio door replacement soon :) (those are so drafty the curtains blow away from them at night hehe)

Juan

Sounds good, Juan. Be sure you measure accurately, and that you get the window about 1/4" smaller than the smallest interior dimension of your steel window frame. You want the window window to be just a little loose so that it fits easily. Like you mentioned, that lip is pretty hard to cut, so either the window will fit or it won't! :eek: Good luck!

Hi. Hope you don't mind my butting in. I just saw your post and was wondering if you've installed your window yet and, if so, what kind of window you chose and how the installation went.

We are in Tucson too and my husband and I would LOVE to lose our single-pane casement windows.

Thanks in advance!
Wendy

Hi. Hope you don't mind my butting in. I just saw your post and was wondering if you've installed your window yet and, if so, what kind of window you chose and how the installation went.

We are in Tucson too and my husband and I would LOVE to lose our single-pane casement windows.

Thanks in advance!
Wendy

Goldeneye08,

Hi, I'd like to add a "me too" to Wendy's request.

I'm here in Tucson with the same issues - double brick construction with old casements that don't even close properly, broken locks, cranks that don't work.

I have spoken to a window replacement contractor and they were pretty confident that my casement windows could be easily removed steel frame and all and replaced with new ones. My house was built in 1952 so maybe they didn't start burying the steel frames in the wall till later when your house was built??? Or perhaps they have some way of getting the frames out by cutting the steel frame and pulling it up out of the slot in the wall.....

Regardless, replacement is going to run approximately $750 per opening for two-window casement replacement with labor.

I would like to explore two other options:

1) Rehabilitation, which this PDF makes seem so easy (yeah right): ftp://phoenix.gov/pub/HISTORIC/steel.pdf

2) Replacing the windows myself using the plan you have drawn in figure 4 below (nice drawing by the way).

So please do come back and let us know how it goes for you when you do your test window, I bet there are others out there who are interested as well.

Good Luck.

Hello,

Thank you for your comments,
I havent started with the windows since some family visited and it was so cold the past month. I will probably tackle one window in a week or two, I will most certainly post pics.

Thanks,

Juan

[QUOTE=goldeneye08;1502542]Ok so Fig 4 shows what you describe.
Fig 4.:http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/92/E5/0F/i92E50F86-E31F-4736-A563-06C473F93EC8.jpg

Now that we are on the same page...
How can I attach the new window to the old steel case. The window seems to have to balance over that very thin (1/8") lip. Or just installing screws thru the new window's frame into the brick behind the old steel frame will be enough?

Thanks

Juan[/QUOTE


Can you send me those pictures?

Hi Goldeneye88, it sounds like you have the same type of construction and windows as my house.
I am just starting to look into what my options are for replacement. Could you send your pics via Email?
(wsteffen@comcast.net)
I have heard one comment that some contractors take out the old steel frames by cutting through the
outside of the frame and colapsing it inward. Looking at my windows, this looks like it could be quite
messy. What do you think?

I am so sorry that the images are not available anymore. The site that hosts them must have changed the URL scheme. Please follow the following link:

View Album - Casement Window Replacement Planning (http://www.dotphoto.com/Go.asp?l=golden%5Feye&P=&AID=5848540&T=1)

Please let me know if you are successfull.

Update on the project: I havent done it yet. Between family visits, work, travel, pool pump motor replacements and if you want to laugh:
http://forum.doityourself.com/wells-sump-pumps-septic-sewage-systems/390500-my-birthday-suprise-septic-tank.html#post1570482
have kept me quite busy :)

I will most certainly tackle a window of two by the beginning of Fall. Is 100+ deg F here already so I dont want to do that just now.

Thanks

Juan

I reloaded this page from a "bookmark" I made and the photos/diagrams showed up! Your windows look very much like mine. I have the opposite weather conditions from yours (I am in the Denver area) so it's getting to
the season where Window/outside work can be done. After searching the web, I am torn between trying to "refurbish" my windows or do the replacement. BTW my construction is brick and cinder block. I am still researching this subject.

Anyone who has steel casement or double-hung windows that have been removed and would be interested in selling them, I am interested.

We may also be able to arrange the removal of the windows from your building if the job conditions allow.

Please contact me to discuss further.

John Barr
Steel Window Repair
info@steelwindowrepair.com
302-478-7400