Carpentry and Woodworking - This project is for beginners?
Doityourself.com community forum was created to provide answers to all questions related to home improvement and home repair. Doityourself community can help you find information about how-to topics on small fixes to large remodeling projects. With comprehensive how-to content and expertly moderated community forums DoItYourself.com makes it easy to tackle even the most complex home improvement projects.View Full Version : This project is for beginners?
doublezero
10-18-08, 02:01 PM
I need some shelves and I have tons of wood lying around, so rather than go to IKEA, I decided to make some.
I got a book out of the library called 'Storage and Shelving Solutions' by Reader's Digest. I found a suitable shelf project on page 46 called 'Floating Shelves-hollow door'. This project is described as 'Skill level: Beginner'. The project can be found on the web here (http://www.rd.com/familyhandyman/content/18214/) .
There are 8 steps in the project. I have completed 6 of them. Currently, I am very unhappy with the results. The shelf tilts down at a significant angle whenever I put books on it. I have no confidence in this shelf to last more than a week. In the book, there is a picture of a woman leaning on the shelf, which is sitting there perfectly straight - implying the shelf is strong and will not fall if you place books on it or lean on it. In my case, this is not true.
I have not completed steps 7 and 8, which involve gluing the shelf to the cleat and nailing the shelf to the cleat. Will this make a difference? I'm no physicist, but with my moderate understanding of the subject, I doubt that Elmer's glue and the little brad nails shown in the picture will actually provide the support which is supposed to come from the cleat. They may attach it securely to the cleat, but I don't think they are going to help it avoid gravity.
I did not change anything from the instructions. I used the exact materials and tools described in the book. I cut everything to the correct sizes and used the recommended drill bit and lag screws and 2x4.
Below are some pictures so you can see what I'm talking about. The last picture illustrates the problem the best.
So if anyone can offer some advice on how to make the shelf not fall, which it obviously is going to. Have I done something wrong? All I did was follow the instructions.
I was going to put up 3 more of these, but maybe I should just go to IKEA after all...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2951807547_38ababf042_b.jpg<br>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/2952658226_f2244daf27_b.jpg<br>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2952657350_7cd1285af2_b.jpg
I got a book out of the library called 'Storage and Shelving Solutions' by Reader's Digest. I found a suitable shelf project on page 46 called 'Floating Shelves-hollow door'. This project is described as 'Skill level: Beginner'. The project can be found on the web here (http://www.rd.com/familyhandyman/content/18214/) .
There are 8 steps in the project. I have completed 6 of them. Currently, I am very unhappy with the results. The shelf tilts down at a significant angle whenever I put books on it. I have no confidence in this shelf to last more than a week. In the book, there is a picture of a woman leaning on the shelf, which is sitting there perfectly straight - implying the shelf is strong and will not fall if you place books on it or lean on it. In my case, this is not true.
I have not completed steps 7 and 8, which involve gluing the shelf to the cleat and nailing the shelf to the cleat. Will this make a difference? I'm no physicist, but with my moderate understanding of the subject, I doubt that Elmer's glue and the little brad nails shown in the picture will actually provide the support which is supposed to come from the cleat. They may attach it securely to the cleat, but I don't think they are going to help it avoid gravity.
I did not change anything from the instructions. I used the exact materials and tools described in the book. I cut everything to the correct sizes and used the recommended drill bit and lag screws and 2x4.
Below are some pictures so you can see what I'm talking about. The last picture illustrates the problem the best.
So if anyone can offer some advice on how to make the shelf not fall, which it obviously is going to. Have I done something wrong? All I did was follow the instructions.
I was going to put up 3 more of these, but maybe I should just go to IKEA after all...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2951807547_38ababf042_b.jpg<br>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/2952658226_f2244daf27_b.jpg<br>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2952657350_7cd1285af2_b.jpg
Shadeladie
10-18-08, 02:29 PM
I think it would be easier to just use shelving brackets and you'd get better support. Just screw them in the wall and screw up under the shelves and you're done. Less steps actually. You could also paint them to match the walls if you want them to blend.
Gunguy45
10-18-08, 02:43 PM
Well, your door is separating and falling apart, so that could be one issue. It weakens the whole structure.
I've seen shelves and mantles built this way that are very strong. Your support has to be strongly anchored to the wall, and seriously, your wall looks like it may have issues. The door (shelf) has to be pushed flush to the wall to give the required strength. Yes, the glue will greatly increase the strength of the shelf, as it spreads the load over the whole cleat. The brad nails are only there to hold it til the glue dries. Regular Elmers white is not the best choice...a yellow wood glue or something like Titebond would be better.
If you have any deflection of the cleat before the shelf is attached, it will only be worse with any weight applied to the shelf.
I've seen shelves and mantles built this way that are very strong. Your support has to be strongly anchored to the wall, and seriously, your wall looks like it may have issues. The door (shelf) has to be pushed flush to the wall to give the required strength. Yes, the glue will greatly increase the strength of the shelf, as it spreads the load over the whole cleat. The brad nails are only there to hold it til the glue dries. Regular Elmers white is not the best choice...a yellow wood glue or something like Titebond would be better.
If you have any deflection of the cleat before the shelf is attached, it will only be worse with any weight applied to the shelf.
spdavid
10-18-08, 02:51 PM
Hollow core doors are not made of very heavy materials.Cutting one up effects the structural integrity of the door.They are going to sag like that without support from underneath.Screwing the door to the "cleat" won't help much although it might tend to keep the door wood panel from pulling forward and therefore somewhat reduce the sagging.
That said I believe this will not be enough and the shelves will need support from underneath.
If it were me before I took them down I'd finish the job and see what happens then decide if brackets are an acceptable way to go or take them down.
Without brackets even if it doesn't sag I would not overload these shelves.The material a hollow core door is made from won't hold but so much even if it doesn't sag.
That said I believe this will not be enough and the shelves will need support from underneath.
If it were me before I took them down I'd finish the job and see what happens then decide if brackets are an acceptable way to go or take them down.
Without brackets even if it doesn't sag I would not overload these shelves.The material a hollow core door is made from won't hold but so much even if it doesn't sag.
doublezero
10-18-08, 03:45 PM
Well, your door is separating and falling apart, so that could be one issue. It weakens the whole structure.
I've seen shelves and mantles built this way that are very strong. Your support has to be strongly anchored to the wall, and seriously, your wall looks like it may have issues. The door (shelf) has to be pushed flush to the wall to give the required strength. Yes, the glue will greatly increase the strength of the shelf, as it spreads the load over the whole cleat. The brad nails are only there to hold it til the glue dries. Regular Elmers white is not the best choice...a yellow wood glue or something like Titebond would be better.
If you have any deflection of the cleat before the shelf is attached, it will only be worse with any weight applied to the shelf.
What do you mean my wall looks like it may have issues. How can you see that from these pictures? You have a good eye. The wall is old and made of plaster, not drywall, and I just checked it and it is slightly warped. So I would have to cut the shelves with the same exact warpage to make them fit right up against the wall. This is impossible.
What do you mean by 'deflection of the cleat'?
I built another, smaller one and put it up. This time, I cut the cleat one millimeter thicker so you would have to really try hard to stuff it into the shelf. It is sagging less than the first one. The first cleat, it fit perfectly in the shelf, but this new one, I made it so there would be absolutely no breathing room once you stuffed it into the shelf and hammered the shelf as close to the wall as possible.
Unfortunately when you put books on it it sags also.
So I will try gluing and nailing it tomorrow and see if that actually makes a difference.
I've seen shelves and mantles built this way that are very strong. Your support has to be strongly anchored to the wall, and seriously, your wall looks like it may have issues. The door (shelf) has to be pushed flush to the wall to give the required strength. Yes, the glue will greatly increase the strength of the shelf, as it spreads the load over the whole cleat. The brad nails are only there to hold it til the glue dries. Regular Elmers white is not the best choice...a yellow wood glue or something like Titebond would be better.
If you have any deflection of the cleat before the shelf is attached, it will only be worse with any weight applied to the shelf.
What do you mean my wall looks like it may have issues. How can you see that from these pictures? You have a good eye. The wall is old and made of plaster, not drywall, and I just checked it and it is slightly warped. So I would have to cut the shelves with the same exact warpage to make them fit right up against the wall. This is impossible.
What do you mean by 'deflection of the cleat'?
I built another, smaller one and put it up. This time, I cut the cleat one millimeter thicker so you would have to really try hard to stuff it into the shelf. It is sagging less than the first one. The first cleat, it fit perfectly in the shelf, but this new one, I made it so there would be absolutely no breathing room once you stuffed it into the shelf and hammered the shelf as close to the wall as possible.
Unfortunately when you put books on it it sags also.
So I will try gluing and nailing it tomorrow and see if that actually makes a difference.
Gunguy45
10-18-08, 05:33 PM
Well, I see cracks and waviness to the wall..that indicates problems with the wall. Thats what I was addressing.
When I said deflection of the cleat, I meant if you have any movement (up and down) of that after it is firmly attached to the wall, then it will only be amplified when a shelf is attached. They are screwed/lagged tight to the studs, yes? Not just into the lath, which is what you would have if its old plaster.
It doesn't haven't to be perfect to the wall, but the tighter the better.
The separating skins of the door really reduce the rigidity of the shelf unit. The skins aren't that thick to begin with, so they'll flex a lot with any weight.
When I said deflection of the cleat, I meant if you have any movement (up and down) of that after it is firmly attached to the wall, then it will only be amplified when a shelf is attached. They are screwed/lagged tight to the studs, yes? Not just into the lath, which is what you would have if its old plaster.
It doesn't haven't to be perfect to the wall, but the tighter the better.
The separating skins of the door really reduce the rigidity of the shelf unit. The skins aren't that thick to begin with, so they'll flex a lot with any weight.
doublezero
10-22-08, 10:47 AM
The 2nd shelf I attempted appears to be working. The cleat is a few millimeters thicker than the 1st cleat. I didn't do an accurate enough job on the first cleat - the thickness varies between 24mm & 27mm. You need 29mm. <br>
Here is a picture of it after I glued and nailed it to the cleat. There are 50lbs of books on the shelf and it does not sag more than 2-3 degrees. <br>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2963984015_e8c4de699c_b.jpg<br>
If I don't see any difference after a couple of days, I will assume that I have learned a new skill and it is worth the time to build more of these.
Here is a picture of it after I glued and nailed it to the cleat. There are 50lbs of books on the shelf and it does not sag more than 2-3 degrees. <br>
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2963984015_e8c4de699c_b.jpg<br>
If I don't see any difference after a couple of days, I will assume that I have learned a new skill and it is worth the time to build more of these.
Gunguy45
10-22-08, 11:02 AM
Much better...and the condition of the door you used was much better as well it appears. Glad its working.
50 lbs is a lot of weight. Remember, the closer you can keep it to the wall, the less bending stress on the shelf and the cleat.
As a side note, I have an old pair of bifold doors that I use as an easily transportable workbench over my folding sawhorses. More solid than a single door of the same width. It'll easily hold my mitersaw or air compressor with plenty of working room. And since it folds, its easier to carry under one arm with the horses in the other hand in 1 trip. Storage is simpler as well.
50 lbs is a lot of weight. Remember, the closer you can keep it to the wall, the less bending stress on the shelf and the cleat.
As a side note, I have an old pair of bifold doors that I use as an easily transportable workbench over my folding sawhorses. More solid than a single door of the same width. It'll easily hold my mitersaw or air compressor with plenty of working room. And since it folds, its easier to carry under one arm with the horses in the other hand in 1 trip. Storage is simpler as well.
doublezero
10-22-08, 11:38 AM
Much better...and the condition of the door you used was much better as well it appears. Glad its working.
50 lbs is a lot of weight. Remember, the closer you can keep it to the wall, the less bending stress on the shelf and the cleat.
As a side note, I have an old pair of bifold doors that I use as an easily transportable workbench over my folding sawhorses. More solid than a single door of the same width. It'll easily hold my mitersaw or air compressor with plenty of working room. And since it folds, its easier to carry under one arm with the horses in the other hand in 1 trip. Storage is simpler as well.
Great idea on the workbench. I'll bet there are a lot of things you can make with these doors. As doors, they're not that good - not fire rated, you can't use them at building entrances, not soundproof, a kid having a temper tantrum can kick right through them, etc. But these shelves might work out nicely and your workbench, etc.
I'll keep the books stacked towards the wall after I finish it.
50 lbs is a lot of weight. Remember, the closer you can keep it to the wall, the less bending stress on the shelf and the cleat.
As a side note, I have an old pair of bifold doors that I use as an easily transportable workbench over my folding sawhorses. More solid than a single door of the same width. It'll easily hold my mitersaw or air compressor with plenty of working room. And since it folds, its easier to carry under one arm with the horses in the other hand in 1 trip. Storage is simpler as well.
Great idea on the workbench. I'll bet there are a lot of things you can make with these doors. As doors, they're not that good - not fire rated, you can't use them at building entrances, not soundproof, a kid having a temper tantrum can kick right through them, etc. But these shelves might work out nicely and your workbench, etc.
I'll keep the books stacked towards the wall after I finish it.