Heat Pumps and Electric Heating - surprising Btu heat at 17F; comparison

1.5 ton 14 seer 13,000 btu/h 17F
2.0 14000
2.5 13000
3 24000
3.5 25000
4 30000
5 ton 33000
compared to 13seer
3 ton only 16000! a 50% increase going to 14seer! wow! AH different too.
Goodman 410a
sure pass to check the ARI certificate!
Post your research!

Maybe its me but I have no idea what you are trying to tell us? Ok you have a builder grade unit! what else was I suposed to get out of that?

Maybe its me but I have no idea what you are trying to tell us? Ok you have a builder grade unit! what else was I suposed to get out of that?

1st, if u have or sell "better" SHOW YOUR NUMBERS!
2nd i don't have this yet, only looking to buy soon.
so if there is a better value, show it. Your input appreciated!

this 50% BTU upgrade costs about +$300 over the builders model. Plus the warranty on compressor is LIFETIME and it has a sound blanket, 73db.

Problem i'm trying to solve:
The few days it gets below freezing here, my old HP and many HP's are almost as bad as electric only heat. This 3 ton gives 50% extra even down to 17F(i am a skeptic, but it is a gov. certification)

I've only done a few days of research, so a pro with years of experience could really show off on this topic!
this 3 Ton:
SSZ140361 & ARUF374316

Again what #'s are you looking for! We sell trane and york but can get anything!

Again what #'s are you looking for! We sell trane and york but can get anything!

ARI Heating Capacity(Btuh)@17F 3Ton
Find Best Value!
Take Base contractor model, price, show how much more it costs to get exactly how many extra btus, look for reasonable payback period.

If u guys are unfamiliar with the Certificate of ARI
check for an HSPF in the 8.6 to 9.6 or higher range.
I don't know what the HSPF really means, that's why I go by btu @17F on the ARI data sheet.
.

You know What id like to see said here over how low I set the tstat .Or what seer or HSPF I get from my unit. On one of the homes here. Its 5 years old 4500sq ft lots of glass . Some rooms have 14 ft ceiling. Hubbe and wife with 3 kids. We put 3 units in it for 6 ton Two hot water heaters. Over the years the electric bill has stayed at $145.00 per month for all year . They balance the bill at the end of the year with the power company and it has stayed the same for all of this time. ;)


I don't know what the HSPF really means, that's why I go by btu @17F on the ARI data sheet.
.
If you dont know what things mean . Then you shouldnt talk about them .:wall:

So educate me.
how do you convert HSPF into btu/hr?
i bet u don't know either.

The HSPF of a unit is the. Heating Seasonal Performace Factor. Is the seasonal measure of energy efficiency for heat pumps when heating. Yes they have charts out that tell you this. It starts out what the OD unit is ,what the indoor blower coil is, What the OD temp is what the indoor drybulbtemp is and the CFM of the blower .Then you have the correction factors for other airflows. Also all ARI rating conditions rated with 25 feet of refrigerant lines. Now put it all together and you will have your answer.;)

Thats why i look at btu/h @17F.

That HSPF mumbo jumbo doesn't answer my question.
BUT, if the guys here don't know what i'm looking at, then, in an attempt to chat, i'll use the terms they are familiar with.
There certainly is a correlation, so i can write about it with as much accuracy as anyone else. When in Rome.....

After all, you write about oversize systems based on your fear of them, not actual experience. When is the last time you pulled out a HP because the customer complained "it is too big; too much heat; too much cold air" ? LOL

We don't pull them out but will add 100 pint per day dehumidifier on them so mold will not grow!

We don't pull them out but will add 100 pint per day dehumidifier on them so mold will not grow!

do you have any details as to sf, tons, etc? % oversize?

when my parents spent summers in NJ, they set their FL thermostat WAY WAY up so it barely ran. NO mold ever grew in 10 summers.

We learned from my Aunt; she turned OFF her Miami AC all summer and did have mold.

data from e-tailer was WRONG.
.
just got ARI dat sheets from dealer:
GSZ130361A + aruf363616B vs SSZ140361A + ARUF3743+txv
btu 35k........................35k
eer 11..........................12
seer 13.........................14
heat 47F 34k....................35000btu
hspf region IV 8.00..............9.00
17F 20k.........................24000btu
so for +$300 i get
20% more heat on super cold mornings
lifetime comp warranty
sound blanket- 73db

but, compared to my old HP it will be +54%(assuming my old rudd was giving only min. heat, it could be only 40-50% more, this is an estimate)

( there are 3412btu per killowatt)

so it should be toasty quickly, like 45 min on a COLD start(heat off all nite, 12hours 7pm to 7am) This is the chief benefit of a double size HP; it can be shut off all nite and heat up the house in less than 1 hour on HP only on the coldest mornings here.

Vic-it only gets down to 27-32, but the 17F data is closer than the 47F data. I hate, HATE cold mornings and am willing to pay extra for this HP, rather than run expensive resistance heat. In fact, i have deleted the heat strip from the new HP, it is not needed.

the goodman ssz0140361a draws almost 4KW, = 13,593btu and makes 24,000 btu 76% "FREE" btus at 17F, it will be even better at 27-32!

How cold can it get, 10mi south of Daytona?

when my parents spent summers in NJ, they set their FL thermostat WAY WAY up so it barely ran. NO mold ever grew in 10 summers.
We learned from my Aunt; she turned OFF her Miami AC all summer and did have mold.

All I can say is that they where way behind the times then. Any unit that I helped on down there in FL. we would tie in a humidistat in line with the stat . Then in the summer and they where gone. Push the stat all the way down on cool and set the humidistat. So it would control the humidity in the home with the AC.
That would be like the first time I went into a school down there. Mold all over in all of them. So to fight it they went out and got dehumidifier's and had lots and lots of them set out in the halls . It took to about 2003 before they started to put new smaller AC unts in the schools there.
Now also Like said you are looking at the cost here. So for the time you have to run that heatpump there in FL. If you take the $$$ that it cost you over just the AC with electric elements and put it into the bank the interest from it would pay for the cost of heat you need in a year there. I know cause I sure didnt use heatpump's in my homes down there.
Also look at the $$$$ you just let get away cause you dont have a hot water recovery unit there on that unit. Who can pass up free hot water and kick up the seer of their AC unit at the same time.

After all, you write about oversize systems based on your fear of them, not actual experience. When is the last time you pulled out a HP because the customer complained "it is too damn big; too much heat; too much cold air"
AS I said above just check on all the oversize unts that the school boards down there had to pull out cause of mold. ++ the cost to clean all the schools of the mold . New rugs paint and just clean all the schools inside.:wall:

Ed
thanks for your input.
i guess the schools shut off the AC in the summer, like my aunt. Even off just weekends could be a mold problem.
.
we are talking the 70's &80's for my aunt.
and
1986 to 96 for my parents.

As far as saving money, i'm 55 and looking for interesting ways to SPEND money. Less noise is worth $300 to me. I'd pay each neighbor $300 if they would cut their grass with a hand reel mower; no gas equipment!
I like the HP, even if wearing a coat and sleeping under an electric blanket is cheaper.

[QUOTE][i guess the schools shut off the AC in the summer, like my aunt. Even off just weekends could be a mold problem. /QUOTE]

No Im talking about they ran all year. They where just to big AC units in all of them. So they would come on drop the temp and shut off. Not able to run very long so they couldnt get the humidity out of the schools. Thats why they had all the mold. Not from turning them off.

[QUOTE][i guess the schools shut off the AC in the summer, like my aunt. Even off just weekends could be a mold problem. /QUOTE]

No Im talking about they ran all year. They where just to big AC units in all of them. So they would come on drop the temp and shut off. Not able to run very long so they couldnt get the humidity out of the schools. Thats why they had all the mold. Not from turning them off.

Same thing up here! No load to make AC run to remove RH!

Ed
Caution noted. I will not recommend school sized ac units, even for free. way too big. good point!

However, for free, i might put 1 in my garage+workshop. No ac 19 yrs, no mold so far. Why Not?(for 1 hr a day when i work in there)
.
As for AC-strip heat, being cheaper than a HP, i save well over $100 a heating season. The electric savings are substantial over 19 years.
In '96 i ran 2 weeks (HP dead waiting for parts) and my bill was an all time record $120! Geez! never again!(i hope)

Got a long one going here Matt!

Like most homeowners, you appear to be focusing on one specific point of data, and not the whole picture.

Great, you found the capacities of differant sized units at 17 degrees for heating. Big deal.

You have to look at the big picture. When you size a system for a home (or business) you have to look at everything that will effect the operation and performance of the system. Basically give the end user (buyer) the most bang for the buck.

To do this you have to start with the dwelling and perform a load calculation. Thank God it's computer based now, used to be a real pain.

Where in the country is it, what is the north, south, east, west orientation. How many windows, what type, what size. Doors, walls people, appliances, insulation, construction, etc.. Everything that generates heat, lets heat in, lets heat out.

Then you have to select the proper system to do the job you need done. You don't just match a 4 ton outdoor unit with a 4 ton indoor unit. There are several combinations from the manufacturer to chose from. Not to mention zoning options, etc..

Some contractors will not go through the trouble and use 600 sqft per ton. Then one of 3 things happen to old Joe Homeowner.

1.) Joe is lucky (rare) and everything is fine. He upgrades from 8 SEER to 15, no problems.

2.) Joe gets an undersized system. It's turned on and rarely if ever shuts off. Joe's electric meter spins as fast as the guy next door's mower blade.

3.) Joe gets an oversized system. Starts runs for a few minutes, stops, waits 3 to 5 minutes for the anti-shortcycle timer, starts runs a few minutes, stops, and on and on. Compressor dies 2 days after warrenty ends and Joe needs a loan.

Allll that said, you need to understand that manufactures design equipment for a specific temperature. Say 70 degrees outside. Meaning at 70 degree outdoor ambient a 3 ton system has 3 ton heating and cooling capacity.

But in A/C the hotter it is outside the harder it is to give up heat to the air that is being taken from the house, hence capacity goes down.

On the flip side, in heating, the colder it is outside the harder it is to cool the outside air (actually take heat from outside and put it in) hence capacity goes down.

Here's a link from Lennox for engineering date for the latest, greatest 2 stage HP in all configurations. Notice the capacitys for the same outdoor unit with different indoor combinations at different outdoor temps for heat/AC.

Have fun.
http://pirl.lennox.com/PDFs/ehb_xp19_rtgs_0707.pdf

jd
thanks for your reply, but i cant read pdf files.(i don't have a pc)
I'm 100% in favor of programs, as long as there is a place to input the cooling/heating speed as demanded by the homeowner. Without that, i'd call it BS. I.E. My sister jogs and she want quick cooling.
An old lady that sits in front of the tv all day is likely ok with a weenie system.

You make a very good point about short cycling. Say i put a 10Ton ac in my 1000sf garage. i'm going to run it mostly steady for 1 hour a day, certainly no short cycling. BUT, if joe average short cycles it, he could burn it out.

There is an AMAZING amount of details to consider, and i admire and respect the guys that do their very best! I do see a untapped marketing opportunity for the SMALL percentage of people that want a high performance system, like mine. I'm sure there is a "sweet spot" beyond which would cause problems. The ac guys' pc program called for 18,000 btu for my house, and i'm at 36,000. With half the rooms closed off my system really KICKS BUTT.
>>>>>I see no need to go any larger<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,............... but i'd sure try a free larger system for the fun of it, if it didn't work out, i'd move it into my garage. This would be a hobby experiment not a retail product.

..
Correction:
I called my dad and he says he turned off the ac all summer.
He says my aunt had a water leak, and that is why she got mold. He never got any mold in 10 years ac off all summer.
I have NO MOLD in my garage, workshop & attic, all NO AC 19 years. How do you mold worryers explain that?

Conditions have to be right for mold to grow. Either naturally or man made.

If you read this: http://www.epi.state.nc.us/epi/oii/mold/conditions.html you may be able to make a case that A/C helps mold grow.

jd
also said if ac is too small it will help mold grow!

i'd bet my ac is below 60% RH
sure feels comfy
.
they were careful to say "almost always" i wonder why?
A: They receive complaints from mold owners, not happy mold free guys

To small a system will run so RH will be low so no mold. With right sized equipment and duct RH should run around 47%

Not a home out their in green grass states I can't find some mold in so I would not say you are mold free.

To small a system will run so RH will be low so no mold. With right sized equipment and duct RH should run around 47%

1st thing WITH a mold problem is to dehumidify, use fans too.
The article says too small ac can cause mold, this casts doutb on the veracity of the whole article.
Too small; too big; blame the mold on the ac, not the water leaks?

Mold spores are in the air everywhere in FL. Avoid standing water; you likely will avoid mold; is this so hard to comprehend?

I've been teasing the mold spores for 19 years; EVERY april - early may i cool with an attic fan all night, bringing in near 99% RH ocean air. NO AC at all. works great, but gets sticky mid may and i go to full ac

data from e-tailer was WRONG.
.
just got ARI dat sheets from dealer:
GSZ130361A + aruf363616B vs SSZ140361A + ARUF3743+txv
btu 35k........................35k
eer 11..........................12
seer 13.........................14
heat 47F 34k....................35000btu
hspf region IV 8.00..............9.00
17F 20k.........................24000btu
so for +$300 i get
20% more heat on super cold mornings
lifetime comp warranty
sound blanket- 73db

but, compared to my old HP it will be +54%(assuming my old rudd was giving only min. heat, it could be only 40-50% more, this is an estimate)

( there are 3412btu per killowatt)

so it should be toasty quickly, like 45 min on a COLD start(heat off all nite, 12hours 7pm to 7am) This is the chief benefit of a double size HP; it can be shut off all nite and heat up the house in less than 1 hour on HP only on the coldest mornings here.

Vic-it only gets down to 27-32, but the 17F data is closer than the 47F data. I hate, HATE cold mornings and am willing to pay extra for this HP, rather than run expensive resistance heat. In fact, i have deleted the heat strip from the new HP, it is not needed.

the goodman ssz0140361a draws almost 4KW, = 13,593btu and makes 24,000 btu 76% "FREE" btus at 17F, it will be even better at 27-32!

any other data u guys want to post? the arcadia?

10 years ago i disconnected the defrost relay as defrost was not needed, but came on anyway(some fault not worth fixing). haven't used the heat strip because i hate the smell and have to open the windows. So i have enough experience to know i don't need the extra resistance heat.

1st thing WITH a mold problem is to dehumidify, use fans too.
The article says too small ac can cause mold, this casts doutb on the veracity of the whole article.
Too small; too big; blame the mold on the ac, not the water leaks?

Mold spores are in the air everywhere in FL. Avoid standing water; you likely will avoid mold; is this so hard to comprehend?

I've been teasing the mold spores for 19 years; EVERY april - early may i cool with an attic fan all night, bringing in near 99% RH ocean air. NO AC at all. works great, but gets sticky mid may and i go to full ac

If you have a mold problem the last thing you would won't to do is use a dehumidifier. You would need to remove the mold first, then dehumidify. Standing water is only have the battle. Need to clean your evaporator once a year. coil compartment is a great place for mold to grow. Fan blades drain pan, duct all can have mold growing very easily.