Toilets, Sinks, Showers, Tubs and Disposals - Best alternative for 9" toilet rough-in
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FixitWoman
03-24-08, 11:11 PM
Technical question:
The builder roughed in the toilet flange at 9" from the finished wall, then force-installed a 10" toilet at an angle and filled the resulting gap with caulk. A slow leak under the floor finally went through to the dining room below. It wasn't until after repairing damaged subfloor, installing new tile and about to set the toilet that the true problem was discovered. Now I see 3 choices:
1) install an offset flange to move the toilet far enough away from the wall so that it will sit flush with the floor.
2) move the pipe, which entails breaking up the new tile, cutting through the subfloor, possibly cutting a joist, moving the pipe, reinforcing the joist, etc., etc.
3) Knock out part of the wall behind the toilet, which doubles as a bedroom wall (not a closet or anything like that), and create an alcove into which the toilet will fit. Could install a shelf or 2 to make it look intentional. There is probably a stud or two in the way.
Contractor/Pricing Question:
I think the tile contractor did me wrong:
The guy who laid the tile had a plumber come in, who told me the toilet didn't fit, that it was pushed up against the well and wasn't flush with the floor. He said he would need an offset flange but would talk with the contractor first and let me know. I heard nothing back from them but when I got home the toiled was installed. The front of the bowl is flush with the tile but the back is raised up 1/4" off the floor.
I had them come over and look at it with me and they tried to tell me it was fine that way, but I paid another plumber $75 to look at it and he said it is NOT ok.
Now they want another $600 to install an offset flange (as above), if there isn't already one there as they contend may be the case.
They did not cause the problem but they were willing to let it continue. I don't think I should pay the contractor for setting the toilet - around $100 - since it was done wrong. I also think they should pay the $75 for the second opinion.
What should I expect from a professional at this point? I removed the toilet myself tonight and it does not appear that an offset flange is currently in place. I have never installed one (or a toilet either) but if that is the best route, I can try to learn a new trick.
Would appreciate some solid advice.
The builder roughed in the toilet flange at 9" from the finished wall, then force-installed a 10" toilet at an angle and filled the resulting gap with caulk. A slow leak under the floor finally went through to the dining room below. It wasn't until after repairing damaged subfloor, installing new tile and about to set the toilet that the true problem was discovered. Now I see 3 choices:
1) install an offset flange to move the toilet far enough away from the wall so that it will sit flush with the floor.
2) move the pipe, which entails breaking up the new tile, cutting through the subfloor, possibly cutting a joist, moving the pipe, reinforcing the joist, etc., etc.
3) Knock out part of the wall behind the toilet, which doubles as a bedroom wall (not a closet or anything like that), and create an alcove into which the toilet will fit. Could install a shelf or 2 to make it look intentional. There is probably a stud or two in the way.
Contractor/Pricing Question:
I think the tile contractor did me wrong:
The guy who laid the tile had a plumber come in, who told me the toilet didn't fit, that it was pushed up against the well and wasn't flush with the floor. He said he would need an offset flange but would talk with the contractor first and let me know. I heard nothing back from them but when I got home the toiled was installed. The front of the bowl is flush with the tile but the back is raised up 1/4" off the floor.
I had them come over and look at it with me and they tried to tell me it was fine that way, but I paid another plumber $75 to look at it and he said it is NOT ok.
Now they want another $600 to install an offset flange (as above), if there isn't already one there as they contend may be the case.
They did not cause the problem but they were willing to let it continue. I don't think I should pay the contractor for setting the toilet - around $100 - since it was done wrong. I also think they should pay the $75 for the second opinion.
What should I expect from a professional at this point? I removed the toilet myself tonight and it does not appear that an offset flange is currently in place. I have never installed one (or a toilet either) but if that is the best route, I can try to learn a new trick.
Would appreciate some solid advice.
furd
03-24-08, 11:29 PM
In my opinion you have been severely taken advantage of. If it were me, my next telephone call would be to a lawyer.
Kobuchi
03-25-08, 05:59 PM
I assume the builder who originally set that toilet wrong is long gone... "slow leak... damaged subfloor" ...many years ago, right?
So, this problem is your responsibility.
Now, what should you "expect from a professional at this point" is whatever that individual's qualifications are, and what a) you ask them and b) they agree to.
Did the tile-guy know you wouldn't accept the toilet replaced more or less as it had been? Did the tiler offer that he would also be responsible for the toilet installation and possible re-plumbing to finally set this right? While it's nice he did call up a plumber buddy, a discussion between them does not equal a contract with you.
Did you stress that the toilet be hooked up and working soon?
Okay, so I'm suggesting the tiler may not have "taken advantage" of the customer in this case. In my experience, this is a very sketchy contract the smart tradesman walks away from.
Honestly, I do shoddy work on occasion (e.g. I'd consider a pitched toilet) when pressured to do it cheap and quick, and my shoddy work is in perfect keeping with the existing house. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't get done at all. Many homes/owners are like that. I always grumble loudly about this and make clear I'd rather do it proper, given the time and money.
Post a photo, FixitWoman, for solid advice regarding the problem at hand.
So, this problem is your responsibility.
Now, what should you "expect from a professional at this point" is whatever that individual's qualifications are, and what a) you ask them and b) they agree to.
Did the tile-guy know you wouldn't accept the toilet replaced more or less as it had been? Did the tiler offer that he would also be responsible for the toilet installation and possible re-plumbing to finally set this right? While it's nice he did call up a plumber buddy, a discussion between them does not equal a contract with you.
Did you stress that the toilet be hooked up and working soon?
Okay, so I'm suggesting the tiler may not have "taken advantage" of the customer in this case. In my experience, this is a very sketchy contract the smart tradesman walks away from.
Honestly, I do shoddy work on occasion (e.g. I'd consider a pitched toilet) when pressured to do it cheap and quick, and my shoddy work is in perfect keeping with the existing house. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't get done at all. Many homes/owners are like that. I always grumble loudly about this and make clear I'd rather do it proper, given the time and money.
Post a photo, FixitWoman, for solid advice regarding the problem at hand.
chandler
03-25-08, 06:50 PM
You say "builder" so can we safely assume this is a new house? How was the toilet sitting prior to the tile job? Was it skewed as well? Definitely talk to the "builder" and firmly suggest the toilet be properly installed, whether it requires retiling or not. You won't be satisfied any other way. I know, I'm married to one. Good luck with this, and let us know if we can help. Pix would help us.
Kobuchi
03-25-08, 07:38 PM
You say "builder" so can we safely assume this is a new house?
A slow leak under the floor finally went through to the dining room below. It wasn't until after repairing damaged subfloor, installing new tile...Old work.
How was the toilet sitting prior to the tile job? Was it skewed as well?
The (original) builder roughed in the toilet flange at 9" from the finished wall, then force-installed a 10" toilet at an angle.Old problem.
Definitely talk to the "builder" and firmly suggest the toilet be properly installedCould be the tile contractor's grandpa, who knows?
The knot is here:
It wasn't until after repairing damaged subfloor, installing new tile and about to set the toilet that the true problem was discovered.
I'm sorry, FixitWoman, but I see no justice in offloading this onto today's tile-guy. Blame the original builder if you must blame anyone. If the toilet was already angled, why didn't you discover this and rate it a problem before the tiles were laid? You are in charge of the overall reno and should spot these things. Perhaps you *gasp* made a mistake. ;)
A slow leak under the floor finally went through to the dining room below. It wasn't until after repairing damaged subfloor, installing new tile...Old work.
How was the toilet sitting prior to the tile job? Was it skewed as well?
The (original) builder roughed in the toilet flange at 9" from the finished wall, then force-installed a 10" toilet at an angle.Old problem.
Definitely talk to the "builder" and firmly suggest the toilet be properly installedCould be the tile contractor's grandpa, who knows?
The knot is here:
It wasn't until after repairing damaged subfloor, installing new tile and about to set the toilet that the true problem was discovered.
I'm sorry, FixitWoman, but I see no justice in offloading this onto today's tile-guy. Blame the original builder if you must blame anyone. If the toilet was already angled, why didn't you discover this and rate it a problem before the tiles were laid? You are in charge of the overall reno and should spot these things. Perhaps you *gasp* made a mistake. ;)
FixitWoman
03-26-08, 10:53 AM
Wow - thank you for all the replies! This is great. :) If I can figure out how to upload photos I will add them. I realize I may not have clarified the whole situation, so here goes:
The house was built in 2000. I bought it in 2001. I am not a plumber, builder or remodeler. All I know is my toilet leaked through to the dining room below. A water damage repair company removed the toilet and vinyl flooring, repaired the rotted wood subfloor and the damaged ceiling and wall below. I had them take up the whole vinyl floor so that I could replace it with tile. They did not put the toilet back so I would only have to set the toilet once.
At this time I should have been more diligent about determining the cause of the leak. :o I was told that the toilet was not installed properly and someone put a bunch of extra caulk under the back edge to "fix" it, which was evident on the vinyl removed from around the toilet.
Next, the tile guy comes in, lays the tile (after putting concrete backer board down first). Tile looks great. Then his plumber goes to reset the toilet and discovers the tank doesn't fit flush against the wall. Said he would look into an offset flange but I hear nothing back and come home to find the toilet reinstalled with a 1/4" gap under the back of it. See "Before" photos (if I can upload them). I brought in another plumber, who said it was not sealed properly - you could hear the washing machine through the toilet pipes. :mad:
I removed the toilet myself and took photos. The tile guy's plumber comes back. There are 2 flanges installed, one on top of the other! He removes them both and installs what he calls an angle flange, then sets toilet. Now the back of the toilet is flush with the floor and the FRONT is pitched up! See "After" photos if I can upload. :confused:
Plumber says toilet is flat and bolted down securely. He then caulked the front of it to fill the gap but left the back uncaulked so if there ever is a leak I will see water on the floor, otherwise I would never know about it until a lot of damage was done (like the last time).
Using my level, I can see that the back of the bowl is level, as are the 2 tiles under the back half of the bowl. The 2 tiles under the front of the bowl are NOT quite level. I can no longer hear the washer or other plumbing through the toilet pipes -it's totally quiet. We flushed many times and saw no leaks.
It probably took about 2 hours of their time to fix this. I am not blaming the new contractor for the builder's problem, but I do want it fixed properly. He DID know the first time he set the toilet that there was a problem, but set the toilet anyway. Now he has finished the job properly, as he should have in the first place.
So there you have it. Should I be happy with this end result? Should I owe them money for this, or are they simply making right their wrong (my take)? They have also just started on a complete redo of my master bath, so they were going to be here anyway. Would you continue to work with them?
The house was built in 2000. I bought it in 2001. I am not a plumber, builder or remodeler. All I know is my toilet leaked through to the dining room below. A water damage repair company removed the toilet and vinyl flooring, repaired the rotted wood subfloor and the damaged ceiling and wall below. I had them take up the whole vinyl floor so that I could replace it with tile. They did not put the toilet back so I would only have to set the toilet once.
At this time I should have been more diligent about determining the cause of the leak. :o I was told that the toilet was not installed properly and someone put a bunch of extra caulk under the back edge to "fix" it, which was evident on the vinyl removed from around the toilet.
Next, the tile guy comes in, lays the tile (after putting concrete backer board down first). Tile looks great. Then his plumber goes to reset the toilet and discovers the tank doesn't fit flush against the wall. Said he would look into an offset flange but I hear nothing back and come home to find the toilet reinstalled with a 1/4" gap under the back of it. See "Before" photos (if I can upload them). I brought in another plumber, who said it was not sealed properly - you could hear the washing machine through the toilet pipes. :mad:
I removed the toilet myself and took photos. The tile guy's plumber comes back. There are 2 flanges installed, one on top of the other! He removes them both and installs what he calls an angle flange, then sets toilet. Now the back of the toilet is flush with the floor and the FRONT is pitched up! See "After" photos if I can upload. :confused:
Plumber says toilet is flat and bolted down securely. He then caulked the front of it to fill the gap but left the back uncaulked so if there ever is a leak I will see water on the floor, otherwise I would never know about it until a lot of damage was done (like the last time).
Using my level, I can see that the back of the bowl is level, as are the 2 tiles under the back half of the bowl. The 2 tiles under the front of the bowl are NOT quite level. I can no longer hear the washer or other plumbing through the toilet pipes -it's totally quiet. We flushed many times and saw no leaks.
It probably took about 2 hours of their time to fix this. I am not blaming the new contractor for the builder's problem, but I do want it fixed properly. He DID know the first time he set the toilet that there was a problem, but set the toilet anyway. Now he has finished the job properly, as he should have in the first place.
So there you have it. Should I be happy with this end result? Should I owe them money for this, or are they simply making right their wrong (my take)? They have also just started on a complete redo of my master bath, so they were going to be here anyway. Would you continue to work with them?
connie
03-26-08, 11:15 AM
Hi,
You can post pictures by uploading to Picasa if you have a Google account, or photobucket. Then post the link here, or inset by using the icon above where we type that looks like a mountain.
You can post pictures by uploading to Picasa if you have a Google account, or photobucket. Then post the link here, or inset by using the icon above where we type that looks like a mountain.
chandler
03-26-08, 06:55 PM
Kobuchi: Whether it was a new house with new problems or an older house was not in evidence, but a correct assumption on your part before the fact. That is why I ask questions. Without proper information you are grabbing a snake that will bite you. The OP aptly responded with good information and will upload pix soon so we can all sit back and see what we can do to help. Take care.