Heat Pumps and Electric Heating - First Geothermal Quote

Hello everyone!

I'm getting quotes for a geothermal heating system to replace the baseboard heaters throughout my 3000 sqf ranch home located in NE Ohio. I have a full, walkout basement with 9 foot ceilings, so running ductwork shouldn't be much of a problem.

The first outfit quoted a water furnace by Envision, Two Stage, 5 ton capacity. It's main claim to fame is a "scroll" compressor that boosts efficiency. It uses 410A RF, and is a closed system with a variable speed blower and up to 15KW backup heat (electric). His quote was for $22,500 completely installed (ground loops 5 feet down, all plumbing, etc) but he doesn't do ductwork, and estimates that will be another $10K or so. I'm getting quotes on ductwork install, and several quotes just to design it so I can install the ductwork myself.

He made a REAL big deal about the ductwork being tailored to the geothermal system.

Many thanks to all for responses.

Quietman
Montville, OH
http://gdpit.com/avatars_pictures/animated/gdpit_com_31277927_210.gif

P.S. Natural gas not an option in my community, unless I purchase another 13 acres and drill for it myself.

Hello Quietman,

That sure seems like alot of money, there are alternatives that I have newly discovered, and I feel it is worth looking into, and had I known that this unit was available I would have installed it and will still probably install this summer ,here is the site, gotohallowell.com. Read all the info. carefully and research, but with my understanding of this unit it is an air source type heatpump that is very efficient at extracting heat from the air down to -15 deg. by utilizing an economizer valve, and increasing the volume of refrigerant by means of two compressors one for pressure one for volume it is actually a 3 stage unit. if you choose to install this you must still install the air handler and duct works, which will work with geothermal or air source type units. My point being that if it did'nt work as they say it will ,you will not be out anymore than the unit itself, however if it does perform as they suggest you will save a huge amount of money$$$$$ about $20,000

He made a REAL big deal about the ductwork being tailored to the geothermal system.

I sure dont see why. A home is a home and I dont care what you use for the heat ,oil ,gas, electric or just for AC .
The duct work has to be put in right for the size and AC load or heat loss of the home. Not for what you will use to heat and cool it.
Now a 3000sq ft home 5 ton could work. But 15 K/W back up dont thinks so. Could need more there. Id sure look at 2 units for the home . Sure give you a good 2 zone control.

Now you have baseboard heaters. So to go over to a air to air heatpumps it could cut your electric about a 1/3. It sure cant cost you any $31,500 to put in.
As to the inground set up . Might look at a Geothermal DX . There they but the copper lines of the condenser in the ground . Not use a water set up and heat exchanger.

If you are set on installing geo which I agree with even with the huge initial install cost, look for a WaterFurnace dealer or Carrier also has a decent product as well. Ductwork should not be an issue as Ed stated. Sounds like you should be getting more quotes search waterfurnace.com tofind a dealer. No I don't work for them I just seen a fair shair if geo and they seem to have their act together.

Florida Heat Pump in Ohio.

http://www.ohio-geothermal.com/?refer=fhp-mfg.com

Hello everyone!

I'm getting quotes for a geothermal heating system to replace the baseboard heaters throughout my 3000 sqf ranch home located in NE Ohio. I have a full, walkout basement with 9 foot ceilings, so running ductwork shouldn't be much of a problem.

The first outfit quoted a water furnace by Envision, Two Stage, 5 ton capacity. It's main claim to fame is a "scroll" compressor that boosts efficiency. It uses 410A RF, and is a closed system with a variable speed blower and up to 15KW backup heat (electric). His quote was for $22,500 completely installed (ground loops 5 feet down, all plumbing, etc) but he doesn't do ductwork, and estimates that will be another $10K or so. I'm getting quotes on ductwork install, and several quotes just to design it so I can install the ductwork myself.

He made a REAL big deal about the ductwork being tailored to the geothermal system.

Many thanks to all for responses.

Quietman
Montville, OH
http://gdpit.com/avatars_pictures/animated/gdpit_com_31277927_210.gif

P.S. Natural gas not an option in my community, unless I purchase another 13 acres and drill for it myself.

he was right to make a big deal about duct work...your new geothermal furnace require much much more air movement than a normal furnace....i am not a furnace installer or a sales man or really know anything about them except i own onw...my ductwork leaving the furnace is about 3 feet by 18 inches and teh return in 4 feet by 18 inches...my blower runs in low speed 24/7 and if and when my furnace kicks in it speeds up quite a bit....i am not sure of the rpm of the blower but it is a 220 volt 1 hp motor

i had to have all new ductwork installed as well... this was ten years ago

let me state a littel more on why i was told you need to move much more air.....other furnaces are heating the air to 140 degrees or so...your geotherm unit will only be sending air out of the registers at about 7 degrees above room temp...so you can see why you need much more of it...you can not go and stand on a register and get "warmed up" in fact if you stand on a register it will feel cool

i think you should talk to anotehr company that sells teh units and installs teh ductwork...they will be able to explain the operation of the unit much better an you can make a much more informed choice

teh 15 kw back up heater will work...when they say backup..they dont mean to solely heat your home...only to boost your geotherm if it ever gets so cold it cant do teh job

when i bought mine i did not have the back up electric heat installed...i figured if i was saving money by using the geotherm heat pump for say 29 days a month and then the backup heat had to assist one or two days..where would my savings go...i had at the time a wood fireplace for that

in all my time with the furnace i only ever seen the heat back up light (it has one on my thermostat to tell you it is on) twice

even though i dont have the heat element in my furnace the light still will come on if the furnace does not get the room to the set temp in a certain amount of time...
like say after a power failure for hours and your house dropped to say 50 degrees and you have the thermostat at 70...it may take my furnace (dont quote me i am guessing) 30 min to get to that setting (remember the heat from the registers is only about 7 degrees above the room temp) so the electric back up would come on to help get the room back up to temp..i am not sure how long it would take with the back up heat as i dont have it

Thanks for the responses everyone,

I have received two more quotes, similar equipment, one is Water Furnace and the other Climate Master.

Quotes #2 & #3 were for $19K and $23K, both include ductwork. Both companies have been doing Geo for 15 or more years.

I've noticed that my first quote was for the Water Furnace "Envision" series. One of the other Water Furnace quotes is for the "Premier" series. It's my understanding that the "Envision" series is like the Lincoln Towncar with Hiney massager, heated steering wheel, satellite radio and DVD player, wet bar, etc. The "Premier" series is more like the Taraus (Now Ford 500) model. For the price difference, I'm thinking I'm the Ford guy!

Anyone have any thoughts?

Many thanks,

Quietman
http://gdpit.com/avatars_pictures/animated/gdpit_com_31277927_210.gif

P.S. Think I'll have guy #1 requote with the Premier series as well.

quietman i am glad to see you looking around...as i stated before i am just a home owner with a geothermal unit...i have no idea about the different models but i can see you are getting much more involved with the whole process of buying one...i am certain you will make good, well informed choice...by the way..my ten year old unit is a premier 2
i am not sure of the tonnage..i forget things im getting old

Have been contemplating geo for about 2 yrs, heating with propane this past year has me going all in this summer.

Have had quotes from 3 reputable geo companies and its amazing how similar the number are. All spec'ed a 5 ton all quoted both preimer and envision. Difference was about $1500 in all cases. Closed loop horizontal system (plenty of readily available land) was 22k give or take a grand. Only one gave me a quote for open loop and it was 5k less than a closed loop.

If you have not made a move yet would love to talk to you.

I'm still working on getting a third quote from an outfit in Pennsylvania (about an hour from here in NE Ohio).

I'd be happy to discuss my findings, my last contractor had some GREAT insights I'd be happy to share.

Quietman

P.S. gbh52 - I've sent you a private message with my email address.

Contractor is coming out to start laying the tubing, install the furnace, ductwork, etc.

Hoping that I'll have reduced heating bills, better comfort, etc.

Take care all,

Quietman

P.S. Hoping to post pics of the install, etc soon.

Hello
I have been following your thread and now I also have a quote for a geo unit.
This for a GEOSMART and it comes in around $29K with a closed loop.
I am still trying to understand the quote and the feasibility of this versus propane. I am in the North East so we get some serious winters.

One concern is that t looks like that it will be high maintenance compared to propane and it is only expected to last 20 years?

I wonder if it is really economical?

JohnSam,

My first quote was for $22,500, and didn't include ductwork. A seperate ductwork quote would have driven it to nearly $28K. I finally found a contractor (good references, experienced) who has nearly completed the install with all the options, bells, whistles AND ductwork for $19,800.

I have several friends at work with Geo, and all they do is change the filter annually. One fellow has an open loop system, so he has to check for scale buildup and remove it from time to time.

I just had the walk through with the service tech, and I'm told to change the filter annually, period (on a closed loop)

I'm curious where you found a reference to a 20 year life expectancy and high maintenance? (associate at work has had geo now for 17 years, with only one failed motor belt)

Many thanks!

Quietman
http://gdpit.com/avatars_pictures/animated/gdpit_com_38300599_209.gif

P.S. Our winters here near Cleveland aren't exactly tropical! Associates with geo for last several years (or more) report complete comfort in winter (and summer) months.

They just started on my wells yesterday. They ended up having to go 188 feet down because of sand and what-not.. It's quite messy, but not as bad as I thought. Of course they only did 2 of the 5 wells, but the yard is a mess.. But not as much as a horizontal install! They are going to finish today, so hopefully next week they will be in the house to finish everything.

Interested to see how much the electric bill will go up with the NE Ohio winters..

Quietman and Cactusmatt

Congrats on selecting a Geo system, however there are a few more maintenance issues besides changing your filter on a regular bases. One is maintaining proper water pressure on the loop. As your system runs the water heats up and the loop will naturally expand causing the pressure to drop.(Unless your loop is made of copper which I doubt$$$) You will probably need to boost the loop(add water) a couple times a year. The system is not leaking water or anti-freeze it's just expanding the diameter of the loop a little causing presssure drop. I've seen 0psi and the system still works, but the circulator pumps failed because of low water pressure. Other maintenance issues: keeping the coil clean, condensate drain clean including the drain pan, and of course the blower wheel clean. Most of these items can be prevented if you use a good filter rated at least a Merv 10.
Enjoy your savings.

Thanks for the info, I'll ask him about that when I see him next week. Also I had a question about the number of wells he's putting in.. It's a 3000 square feet home with a 5 ton Waterfurnace Envision series going in; my question is there any benefit from having 5 wells dug instead of 4? He talked about it being 5, but I think it's going to only be 4. Do I get any substantial gain in heating or cooling with the kind of space I'm trying to heat?

Thanks again for your time.

Matt

What is the total length pipes in the ground, ask him.!!!!

Thanks for the info, I'll ask him about that when I see him next week. Also I had a question about the number of wells he's putting in.. It's a 3000 square feet home with a 5 ton Waterfurnace Envision series going in; my question is there any benefit from having 5 wells dug instead of 4? He talked about it being 5, but I think it's going to only be 4. Do I get any substantial gain in heating or cooling with the kind of space I'm trying to heat?

Thanks again for your time.

Matt

Turns out it was 4 wells 200 feet down. Everything was installed last week and it's working quite well with the 90 degree weather we are having. It's able to keep everything at 71-72 degrees in only the first stage. I'm sure it's using less electricity, but it should be interesting to see the first bill entirely on Geo. My normal electric bill is about $240. We have electric EVERYTHING.

The install and the lawn repair was top notch, and the guys that did the install were very friendly and helpful.

I sure dont see why. A home is a home and I dont care what you use for the heat ,oil ,gas, electric or just for AC .
The duct work has to be put in right for the size and AC load or heat loss of the home. Not for what you will use to heat and cool it.


I am not an expert but from the research i have done it does matter. Gas puts out air heated to a much higher temperature so it needs to move less air. Geothermal only lifts the temperature a small graduation at a time so the air flow has to be much higher. Higher airflow means larger ducts and/or less resistance and/or a larger volume pump.

The information is just from the brochures and talking to the installer. A heat pump should last 20 years with proper maintenance. Also a closed loop system will last a long time but if the pipes are not fused properly you could get leaks.

JohnSam,

My first quote was for $22,500, and didn't include ductwork. A seperate ductwork quote would have driven it to nearly $28K. I finally found a contractor (good references, experienced) who has nearly completed the install with all the options, bells, whistles AND ductwork for $19,800.

I have several friends at work with Geo, and all they do is change the filter annually. One fellow has an open loop system, so he has to check for scale buildup and remove it from time to time.

I just had the walk through with the service tech, and I'm told to change the filter annually, period (on a closed loop)

I'm curious where you found a reference to a 20 year life expectancy and high maintenance? (associate at work has had geo now for 17 years, with only one failed motor belt)

Many thanks!

Quietman
http://gdpit.com/avatars_pictures/animated/gdpit_com_38300599_209.gif

P.S. Our winters here near Cleveland aren't exactly tropical! Associates with geo for last several years (or more) report complete comfort in winter (and summer) months.

Hey all!

It's been six months since my Geo install. I had a horizontal install, so back yard is still horrid (covered, mercifully, under a blanket of snow at the moment)

Electric bills are LOWER this winter, with my entire home heated to a comfy 72 deg F at all times. Last winter, with baseboard heaters, electric bills were 30% or more higher with the settings at SUPPORT LIFE (and only in the rooms we used), nowhere near 72.

We've had overnight temperatures down to -10 deg (not windchill, ambient temps) and the emergency (or backup) heating elements haven't switched on.

Take care everyone!

Quietman
http://gdpit.com/avatars_pictures/animated/gdpit_com_55377760_205.gif

Just wanted to throw in... we just had a 3 ton, 2 vertical bore-hole Envision (outdoor split!) installed last month. Also put in a DSH which just CRANKS out the hot water even mounted OUTSIDE the house.

In fact, I think I am going to build a greenhouse around the whole thing (geo compressor & DSH unit) to capture all that heat in the winter. Thoughts welcome on that one!

All electric 2K sq. ft. house, modest insullation and crappy ducting. (Also moved over from electric baseboards set in "Life Support" mode). Our eletric bill dropped by 50% ABSOLUTELY. Cost was around the $20K+ range as well. I figure 8 year ROI given the following: 1) operational cost has reduced by 70%, 2) electric rates will rise during that time (they are pretty low around here right now: Dominion / N. Virginia / ca. 9 cents kWh, 3) usage / consumption will rise moderately no matter how conservative we are (more clothes to wash, more dishes to wash, more showers etc. which all use more hot water), 4) government incentives. Note that I have run the financial model many times and the single most influencing factor is the price of eletricity. Going up just a little changes everything. By the way, I'm convinced Water Furnace makes good stuff. Nice and solid. I look over at my neighbors house during the evenings and watch their air source pump blanket with ice and then shred chunks of it off of the system in defrost. Makes me smile! Hard to believe that you are just circulating a bunch of water, basically, and warming your house totally.

Will be making some mod's to the ducting to balance bottom and top floors (35 year old home - builder put 5" ducts to first floor and 6" to the 2nd floor - you just sweat up there even when it is 10 degree outside - but we already knew this because you would freeze with the old low-SEER A/C that we had).