Flooring Tile - Installing ceramic tile in Kitchen

I am in the process of removing sheet vinyl in my kitchen. Below the vinyl is luan then OSB. Should I remove the luan also and replace with plywood? Is 1/4 inch plywood thick enough? Or should I put the thinset and backerboard over the luan?

You DO NOT want luaun or any 1/4" plywood anywhere near a tile installation.

You should be removing the vinyl and luaun in one operation, both have to go. If you vinyl is old, the backing might contain asbestos? So don't sand or scrape if you don't know.

It is possible that your OSB is enough subfloor, but adding plywood is always a good idea. Never use 1/4" plywood when tile is being installed. How thick is the OSB? Can you afford to raise the floor more? If you install more plywood, it should be 3/8" or thicker. Then over that you need to install a tile backer board or a membrane such as Ditra.

How about the joists? Are you installing ceramic or porcelain, or is it natural stone tile?

Jaz

Thank you very much for your replies. The OSB under the luan is about 3/4. I was going to screw down a layer of 1/4 plywood over the OSB before I install the thinset and backerboard because I know you can't put the thinset directly to the OSB. So you recommend I use 3/8 instead of the 1/4? My floor joists are 16" on center and I am installing ceramic tile. I can't afford to raise the floor too much because of my dishwasher. Thanks

Smith,

Chances are your OSB is indeed 3/4" thick, I knew that before you were asked. BUT we want to know if it is or not? After all, 5/8" is about 3/4" and so is 7/8".:wall:

Take 3....NO 1/4" plywood! :wall: 3/8" OK, 1/2" better.

You can to spread thinset over OSB! That's how Ditra and every CBU is installed. What you can not do is install tile directly over OSB.

OK, the joists are 16" o.c. What size are they? What is the unsupported span? Do you know the species or grade?

Dishwashers have adjustable feet, you can either screw the adjusters in all the way or even remove them for max clearance, then shim it back up with strips of wood for removal when necessary.

Jaz

My floor joist are 2x9 16in o.c., the unsupported span is about 8 feet. The OSB is 19/32 manufactured by Weyerhauser (wrong spelling) I have removed the luan and vinyl tile. Ideally what should be my correct underlayments to make this thing sturdy and last a lifetime. I will be using hardibacker or Durock instead of Ditra. Thanks

OK, so, the OSB is NOT 3/4" after all. You have 5/8" OSB, which means your builder is a cheap ass!:thumbdn: That is the bare minimum standard code allows, but it is useless for a quality tile installation. You need to install at least 1/2" plywood, but 5/8" would of course be better. Make sure it's a good quality underlayment grade exposure 1. Do not buy cheap sheathing ply.

Your 2x10" joists which measure 1.5 x 9.25 are plenty strong enough at such a short span of 8'. Hardi, Durock, also consider PermaBase if available where you live.

Have you chosen the tile, what brand of setting materials are available to you?

Jaz

Yeah I'm finding out more and more how cheap RYAN homes are. I will be using whatever Home Depot carries. Any good suggestions? Also when calculating the total height my floor will be raised, how much does the 2 layers of thinset add? (1 layer for the backerboard to the plywood and 1 for tile to backerboard?)

Well...Although I'm at HD or Lowe's a few times a week for odds and ends, I don't expect to find quality wood products there. You see, when they have a choice on quality, they usually choose the cheapest. But by now many of the quality lumber yards are out of business. You should be looking for B/C underlayment grade made with exterior glue, should say exterior or exposure 1. Do you know how to install underlayment?

The thinset under a CBU is maybe 1/16", under the tiles, about 3/32". This of course depends on the tile and size you're using and the type of thinset. Let me know when you've decided.

Jaz

This of course depends on the tile and size you're using and the type of thinset.


...and how you mix it and how you spread it and at what point in its potlife you use it.:)

I've never installed underlayment before. I am using 12x12 tiles and I believe the name of the thinset is Flexbond it was about $25 a bag.

OK, Flexbond is a premium modified thinset, sounds good. Tell me about the tiles you've chosen. Sound like you're buying it at the orange place.

Jaz

I don't think these are name brand tiles I got them on clearance for $15 bucks a case because they were a special order that fell throught. The box just says glazed ceramic tile 1st quality (ANSI A137-1) if that has any meaning. As for the underlayment. I am assume I can screw it down staggering the joints so they dont line up just like the CBU?

I'm not getting what you mean by;....
I am assume I can screw it down staggering the joints so they dont line up just like the CBU?

What does the yet to be installed CBU have to do with the plywood underlayment?

Is that tile ceramic, porcelain? White bisque or Red? Put a few drops of water on the back, does it soak in a little, a lot, non at all? I'd hate to have you go to all the trouble of trying to do a good job, but end up installing the typical junk they sell. You would hate that...no?:eek:

Jaz

I meant don't let four corners meet at any given point or make T joints for added strength. The back of my tiles are red. I sprayed the back of the tile with a spray bottle and it soaked right in. I dropped a few droplets on the back and it took about 5 or 6 seconds and soaked in. I guess I bought garbage huh?

DUHHHHHHHHHHH.

HD and probably a buck or less?:D

Jaz

Those references and the water test tells me you have WALL TILE there and NOT FLOOR TILE. Don't put that on a floor if that's the case.:)

Wow! Jaz and Bud are my heroes! I would have NEVER thought to ask you, Smith, if you had purchased wall tiles to put on the floor. Great job, gentleman!

So, Smith, you probably won't be able to return the tiles, since they were on clearance. Maybe you have someplace else you can use them, or consider donating them to your local Habitat for Humanity and get a tax credit for '08.

Connie

I agree with you Connie! Both Bud and I are "the best" when it comes to tiling! (Especially me!) :D :D

I'm not positive that is wall tile or floor tile. It does sound like the typical cheap stuff they sell as floor tiles though.

I don't have that ANSI spec here. Mine goes up to A136.1, regardless, Smith should reconsider whether it makes sense installing 'stuff' like that.

Jaz

Well, I think the "ANSI A137-1" just refers to the code section.

If there's a PEI on the box, it would look like one of these:
PEI 0 Not recommended for floors at all
PEI 1 Light duty floor
PEI 2 & 3 Medium duty floors
PEI 4 Heavy duty floors
PEI 5 Extra heavy duty floors

What made me think you two were right about wall tiles is: Smith said they were glazed. I have used glazed tiles as accents in a field, but can't imagine doing a bath or kitchen floor with glazed tile.

Also, when Smith talked about how absorbent the tiles were, I thought of glazed terra cotta. I have used those, and no matter what they are rated, they're too fragile and brittle for kitchen or bath.

(Oh, I can just hear Bud out there somewhere...ready to come in here and pick this apart! Yesterday, some poor guy asked what tile we'd recommend he use and Bud told him to get out there and look! Subtlety is not the word of the day, here.):)

Bud is a brilliant man, and sounds like he knows a few thing about this industry too.:thumbup: I know how difficult it is to be very gentle sometimes. Actually I think he does a better job of it than I. :D

Connie, most tiles you see are glazed. Glazed does not mean shinny Glazed can be dull and everything in between too. But good thinking on your part.

Jaz

Good point! I was thinking high gloss. I didn't mean any dis-respect...I get a lot of laughs out of some of the things that are said on here. (The Japanese squatting toilet will always be a favorite!)

Was that Japanese or Chinese? If Chinese, I know I can get you one........or 5,000! :blah: I wonder what their bidets look like? Or....do they...?:D :thumbdn: :coffee:

Jaz

ANSI A137.1 has to do with allowable warpage.

Heres some info on it from TCNA Q&A's

http://www.tileusa.com/lippage_faq.htm

I got fifty bucks that says they are wall tiles.:)

Connie the PEI Ratings you refer to are ratings for the ware-surface of the the tile, the glaze, nothing more. Has nothing to do with the bisque.:thinker:

ANSI A 137.1 sets forth details for the testing of ceramic tiles. ALL CERAMIC TILES. For a tile seller to print that on the box is somewhat misleading in my opinion, HELL most all tile can be tested using the ANSI Standards.:)

Mr. Cline, then how do you determine what tile is suitable for flooring? (Maybe I should have started a new thread, here, sorry) And what happened to Smith?

...then how do you determine what tile is suitable for flooring?

One would buy "floor tile".:)

Smith,

Chances are your OSB is indeed 3/4" thick, I knew that before you were asked. BUT we want to know if it is or not? After all, 5/8" is about 3/4" and so is 7/8".:wall:

Take 3....NO 1/4" plywood! :wall: 3/8" OK, 1/2" better.

You can to spread thinset over OSB! That's how Ditra and every CBU is installed. What you can not do is install tile directly over OSB.

OK, the joists are 16" o.c. What size are they? What is the unsupported span? Do you know the species or grade?

Dishwashers have adjustable feet, you can either screw the adjusters in all the way or even remove them for max clearance, then shim it back up with strips of wood for removal when necessary.

Jaz

What type of Thinset or glue can I use to adhere my Hardibacker to the USB floor?

Pete

Hi Pete, Welcome to the DIY Forums.

You could use thinset over the strand board just to install ditra or backer board, because the thinset acts as a bed not an adherant.

The main point in this post was the osb wasn't sufficient subfloor for the tile and plywood needed to be added atop the osb for strength.

Every tile floor requires sufficient support, and that must be determined before laying the backerboard.

If you have another question, please create a new post. Thanks so much.

Connie

Hi Connie,

Thanks for the reply. The thinset (Versabond) says Not to apply to OSB!?! HD are the ones who suggested I use it. Is there somthing else I should be using like a bonding glue (Titebond) or do I just put the thinset and disregard their instructions?

Thanks,
Pete

Hi Pete,

They are referring to installing tile on the OSB. You can use the versabond to install the hardibacker to the OSB.

Try a search, using the parameters: "versabond osb install cbu"
for further confirmation.

I have to ask again, though-what is your subfloor? How wide is the spacing between joists? How thick is the OSB and is there something under it besides the joists.

Most tile installations require a more substantial subfloor that the builder installed.

Connie,

It looks like OSB is 7/8", and joists are at 16" ctr. is that sufficient to slap on the backer board?

Pete

Again! Versabond is fine, great, wonderful, acceptable, for use on OSB when installing cement board.

The "DO NOT USE ON OSB" information relates to installing the tile, not the underlayment.:)