Home Warranties and Inspections - Should've my Inspector detected that all Kitchen piping wasn't done under code?

Dear Barry,

We bought a house Nov. 25ve, the house has a brand new guest house build in 2006. Both houses were inspected before we purchase, but at the time of inspection the guest house didn't have power, so the inspector couldn't inspect all the ellectricals in the House. Once the power was on, we verify that the AC, lights and garbage disposal were working ok.

One week into our new guest house (my husband and I live there my sister's family in the other house) we realize that once there is food in the sink and we use the garbage disposal all the dirty water goes to the dishwasher until a point were it gets filled up with water and over flows damaging cabinets and the kitchen floor. When we called the plumber (we have called 3 so far) they all say that the dishwater needs an air gap but the whole piping needs to be re-done because it wasn't done under code (not done by a licensed plumber). They see the bathroom sink and can't believed we bought the house like this. The pipes look normal to me but they say whom ever did that was crazy and that eventually it's all going to break down.

The former owner of the house build the guest house (he does flips) but filed all permits as a owner-builder not as a contractor (even though he is a licensed contractor), reason why he is not liable to the city not the Board of Contractors.

We have contacted the former owner in a civil manner to ask him to take care of the plumbing bill and he refuses, he admitted that he wasn't a licensed plumber but since we bought the house like that he wasn't liable.

We have not done anything to fix the plumbing yet. We aren't sure if our inspector is liable since at the time the running water worked and he is not suppose to know advance plumbing, should he be liable for the air gap only? Should a home inspector recognize piping work wasn't done under code? Should we ask him to come by again? and give him the opportunity to see the problem before we take the owner to small claims court?

Thanks for your help

Most home inspectors I know, myself included, are not happy to get such a call, but far prefer to get it before the "problem" is corrected, otherwise it's sometimes impossible to determine if we missed something or not.

Can you post some pics of the "crazy" plumbing?


Also, how did you find your inspector?

I have some pictures that I could post tomorrow. The inspector is a dear friend of my brother in law.

Most home inspectors I know, myself included, are not happy to get such a call, but far prefer to get it before the "problem" is corrected, otherwise it's sometimes impossible to determine if we missed something or not.

Can you post some pics of the "crazy" plumbing?


Also, how did you find your inspector?

we realize that once there is food in the sink and we use the garbage disposal all the dirty water goes to the dishwasher until a point were it gets filled up with water and over flows damaging cabinets and the kitchen floor.

All you really need to do is look under the sink at the disposal and find where the dishwasher drain goes into the garbage disposal. It is likely a black or grey plastic hose. It needs to be routed where it leaves the disposal and travels UP first forming a loop higher than the disposal inlet before it travels down to the dishwasher. Water will travel downhill following the path of least resistance and if that hose leaves the disposal and travels downhill first then that is where the water in the disposal will go every time, and fill up the dishwasher. Or you can put in an air gap device make for that purpose. You can find them at all big box stores. They are far less expensive than cabinets and plumbers.



the whole piping needs to be re-done because it wasn't done under code (not done by a licensed plumber).

Not being done by a licensed plumber does not make it 'not done under code.' Most states allow for homeowners to make their own repairs to existing structures and some even allow a homeowner to do his own new construction.

You inspected, you bought it, now you can fix it. It probably does not ALL need to be redone. Just the dishwasher drain.

The first thing you should do is educate yourself on how the undersink piping should be installed. Browse a plumbing book at your local home improvement store. You need to know enough to be able to protect yourself from contractors that want to "grow" the job.

You may or may not need an air gap depending on your local code. In my area they are not required. Loop the DW drain as previously posted. This will allow you to use the GD until the plumbing issue is resolved.

In any case, IMO your inspector certainly should have noted that there was no air gap in the DW drain line and the line wasn't routed properly to prevent the GD from draining into it.

Home inspectors are generally not code knowledgeable. Certainly not for specific houses. How could they be? The codes change all the time and something illegal now may have been perfectly legal when a house was built.

I've used a home inspector a couple of times. In both cases, I had to sign a bunch of paperwork acknowledging that the inspector was NOT an engineer, architect, electrician, plumber, or code compliance person. Actually made me wonder what I was paying him for.

IMHO - the lack of an air gap in your dishwasher plumbing is not your issue .. not in the least! As far as "Crazy Plumbing" is concerned - what is the issue??

Based on your initial post - It sounds like your drain pipe is clogged.... causing your disposal system to drain back into the dishwasher.

BUT - Let's go "Real World"...

Inspectors are asked to do the impossible.... identify "all" the defects in a home. Sounds as if your plumbing problem is one that should be simple to rectify - and not necessarily obvious on first glance.

The previous owner - if he did things properly (as opposed to "right") got permits for any plumbing/structural/electrical changes he made to the house. If those permits were "signed off"... then he did his duty - properly done or not! who you gonna sue? - the guy who did the work - or the governmental entity that approved it?

I'm sorry - but it sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill... I'd bet $100 against your $1000 that a simple plumbing change could correct your problem.... negating the need/desire for litigation at 5X the cost.

We found these links from the American Society of Home Inspectors website:

http://www.homeinspector.org/standards/standards13.aspx
1. Inspectors are not required to determine: compliance with regulatory requirements (codes, regulations, laws, ordinances, etc.).

2. Inspectors are not required to operate: any system or component that is shut down or otherwise inoperable. (Since the electricity was turned off the garbage disposal couldn't be run).


However, it does note the following:
http://www.homeinspector.org/standards/standards6.aspx
3. The inspector shall inspect: interior water supply and distribution systems including all fixtures and faucets.

4. The inspector shall inspect: drainage sumps, sump pumps, and related piping.

Both 1 and 2 go together and pose a strong argument against holding the Home inspector liable - but 3 and 4 seem to contradict that notion. My feeling is that 1 and 2 are right - the piping was not up-to-code but the home inspector did not have to make us aware of that.

Any thoughts?

Initial thought... What's the goal of the exercise? Fix the problem... or determine who'se at fault?

We found these links from the American Society of Home Inspectors website:

http://www.homeinspector.org/standards/standards13.aspx
1. Inspectors are not required to determine: compliance with regulatory requirements (codes, regulations, laws, ordinances, etc.).

2. Inspectors are not required to operate: any system or component that is shut down or otherwise inoperable. (Since the electricity was turned off the garbage disposal couldn't be run).


However, it does note the following:
http://www.homeinspector.org/standards/standards6.aspx
3. The inspector shall inspect: interior water supply and distribution systems including all fixtures and faucets.

4. The inspector shall inspect: drainage sumps, sump pumps, and related piping.

Both 1 and 2 go together and pose a strong argument against holding the Home inspector liable - but 3 and 4 seem to contradict that notion. My feeling is that 1 and 2 are right - the piping was not up-to-code but the home inspector did not have to make us aware of that.

Any thoughts?

Difficult problem for home inspectors. In my state (IL) for example by law no one but a licensed plumber can "inspect" plumbing, all I can do is "observe" it.

Real world, a good home inspector understands a lot about the requirements of the building code, and increasingly we are individually seeking ICC certifications in one of more code areas.

However the advice we receive from our attorneys is to never "quote code" as that might mislead our clients into believing that we are performing a code inspection and can report that something is "up to code" - when if fact only the local AHJ can actually decide if something is "code or not".

(A licensed plumber or electrician, BTW, can't do this either - I've seen plenty of both lose an argument with a municipal code inspector).

IMO what I good home inspector should know in this case is that 1) there are high-loops built into most modern dishwashers, and some manufacturer's only require that the drain hoses be 18-24" above the floor, but 2) that almost all AHJs still require either a high loop or an air gap anyway.

So IMO the inspector should 1) if they know it to be a fact that the local AHJ requires a air-gap or high-loop and it's missing, report the fact, 2) if neither is present and it's required by manufacturer, report its absence, or 3) if they don't know if it's required by the manufacturer, find out 4) if a air-gap or high loop is present verify that it is properly secured at accessible connections and 5) if a high loop is present verify it's secured in position and not just showed up between the sink and the cabinet - in this case for example, if it was not properly secured it may have dropped down when the dishwasher was run.

And if for example the high loop is missing, and is required by the manufacturer, instead of code I would reference the manufacturer's instructions, which will state the high loop/air gap requirement, including a diagram of what should done to achieve a correct installation:

http://www.paragoninspects.com/images/plumbing/dwv/report-highloop.jpg

This way, without quoting code, or claiming to know if this would "pass code", I've made it clear what I think is wrong, and why, and what a "recognized authority" says needs to be done fix it.

It's a bit more expensive and time consuming to report things this way than just to say "it's wrong" or to quote the IRC. Not every inspector would agree that this defect deserves a both a picture and reproduction of the manufacturer's instructions, and not every buyer wants to pay for this level of service - that's one reason why there are $200 inspections and $500 inspections.

But experience has taught me that this sort of reporting saves a lot of back and forth between buyers, sellers, their attorneys and the licensed professional who will end up fixing things, and thus ends up saving my clients time, aggregation and (sometimes a lot) of money, and enough people seem to agree to pay the bills.

Now, if the owner wants to try to tell my client that their home inspector is an blithering idiot, and that the high loop is perfectly fine the way it is, my response is going be "I'm perfectly willing to admit that I might be wrong... BUT that's the way the manufacturer says in writing it should be done, and with a picture and everything, and who am I, as a lowly home inspector, to say different?

"And if the seller thinks the manufacturer is wrong, I would suggest you ask them to provide a statement from a licensed and insured plumber, on their business letterhead, including their license number, or from the from the local AHJ, stating that it's OK to disregard the manufacturer's written instructions - otherwise you may have to pay to change it later."

Again, no code, but IMO it effectively addresses my clients concerns.

Here is a photo of our sink. Plumbers flip out when they see it. (and state that eventually is all going to collapse) I have no idea why, except for the DW hose which I now understand it should have the loop.

Thanks for all the feedback

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2315/2217726580_f210c7c978_m.jpg

Someone please illuminate my mind. I've only installed a dozen or so sinks in my lifetime. I see nothing wrong with the attached photo other than the dishwasher line, which should be raised above the level of the sink base. Maybe I'm missing something obvious.

I'm interested in knowing what's wrong (other than the DW hose) too. Looks just like my sink drain setup.

I'm with thezster. Not a plumber but I've installed quite a few sinks. The only thing I can see that is a problem is the DW drain although I can't see the joint between the trap and the stub out very clear. Is the DW hose hung off of the drain?

- I don't like like that continuous waste center tee arrangement as the food waste grinder will try to pump its discharge up into the right-hand sink. IMO, it would have been better to discharge the FWG into the side-inlet of a tee on right-hand tailpiece. If in that case you ended up with a trap-height problem, you might need to trap the FWG separately. However as the power was off at the time of inspection it would not have been possible to observe the sink for back-up with the FWG running, so I would have written it as a "FYI" item.

- Hard to tell from the pic, but looks like the trap arm may be reverse pitched.

- ABS vs PVC is a regional thing - for example you almost never ABS drain plumbing in my area (Chicago), but I'm told that it's standard in some places. The plumbers may not have been used to seeing ABS there. but it's OK unless there is a local restriction.

That said, I was expecting to see a picture of a real mess, I see *much* worse that this at many inspections.

Can't really disagree with Michael - but think we're gettin kindasorta nitpicky on this one from appearances and the description of the problem. Even if the drain out was slightly reverse pitched - it wouldn't cause the problem described to the extent it's been proposed. If it is - raising it is a 15 minute process. ABS/PVC ?? - guess it depends on your locale - but it's not an issue in the last 6 places I've lived - according to the photo.

Again - I see nothing ready to "fall down/disintegrate" in the photo... In fact, it looks pretty solid to me. Raise that DW hose - check the trap discharge for proper slope and correct if necessary (slip joints make it easy)... At this point - based on the problem described - I'm wondering if the sink is vented properly - if it's not - it could cause for slow drainage - giving the DW hose/DW time/opportunity to fill with dirty water.

ABS is no longer allowed for new work in my area. It hasn't been for over 10 years. I'm not sure why? It's also hard to find. Big Orange doesn't carry it and Big blue carries a limited stock.

Only mechanical connections are allowed between new work PVC and old work ABS. According to our local inspector it's because ABS fitting tolerences were too sloppy to make a reliable cemented joint.

Your inspectors thoughts would seem to make sense... though (and it has been a couple of years, for sure) the last disposal I bought still ran a ABS discharge pipe - which I had to mate to PVC (via mechanical connections).

Completely remove all piping under kitchen sink and install new ABS with proper fittings (due to pipes being glued). Correct piping work (not under code). Install air gap seal under sink. Wife (not sure if I can understand his writing) clean caulking.

At this point looks like we will have a plumber do the job and forget about the inspector ans builder/owner. Even though it's easy doesn't look like we can do it ourselves.

Thanks for all the help. I sure learn a lot about pipes and under the sink work. At leat I have more vocabulary for next time I buy a house ;)

Dariana - Every joint that I can see in your photo is a mechanical union. Are you saying that the mechanical joints are also glued? Even if they are, what's the problem? If they leak or get clogged sometime in the future, that would be the time to hire a plumber.

Any plumbers here? Is there a code prohibiting gluing mechanical joints?